Suudy
Active member
Right. It’s ok to impose one’s religious beliefs regarding care for the poor, but not ok to do so when it comes to abortion.
Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching
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Suudy
Active member
Ok, your principle applies to contraception, and apparently abortion. So why then does it not extend to anything, even hypotheticals like infanticide? Principles apply to all cases, actual or hypothetical. So, what about coverage for infanticide? Euthanasia? Female circumcision?
They aren’t the same. One is removed, one is direct. The HHS mandate requires entities (organizations, companies, individuals, etc) to directly fund services contrary to religious belief. Taxes are indirect. It is the government paying for ABCs, not the individual organization. There is an extra layer.
And, in case you haven’t noticed, we are opposed to government funding of ABCs and other such services. They are both equally opposed. But one directly interferes in an organizations religious beliefs.
If you are unable to recognize the difference, I’m not sure how to explain it to you.
Stephen168
New member
She is a big fan of free stuff for women because she pays taxes. She shouldn’t have a problem with free female infanticide, female euthanasia, or female circumcision.
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JimG
Guest
It is noteworthy that the very first paragraphs of the motu proprio state that the Church has a 3-fold responsibility: to proclaim the gospel, to celebrate the sacraments, and to exercise the ministry of charity *, and that these three presuppose each other and are inseparable.I like the Motu Proprio. I think it’s a good thing and I wish we’d gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.
It is the government which wants to separate the the Church from that last item, not only denying that it is a mission of the Church, but deciding as a matter of Federal regulation that doing the works of charity make an institution NON-religious!*
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iloveangels
Guest
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CMatt25
Guest
I tried reading it from one of your links but I didn’t get far before it jumped to another webpage. And another link didn’t work for me. I’m not sure but from the little I was able to read though it looked to be Catholic relatedI like the Motu Proprio. I think it’s a good thing and I wish we’d gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.
but I was unable to get far into it. I’m glad you like it though.
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iloveangels
Guest
Here’s a better copy from the VATICAN WEBSITE: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20121111_caritas_en.htmlI tried reading it from one of your links but I didn’t get far before it jumped to another webpage. And another link didn’t work for me. I’m not sure but from the little I was able to read though it looked to be Catholic related
There’s an intro, and then there’s the Dispositive Part which has the direct instructions in it.
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CMatt25
Guest
Like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and many other Catholics who if you asked your church’s answer, She would answer they are considered to be Catholics. Protestants and other faith groups also espouse a social doctrine of serving the poor. So social doctrine encompasses many faiths. But there are for instance non Catholic Christian Protestants and Jews who are pro choice. That’s a difference I see in why you can not compare the 2 directly.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I’ll address this, but I’m veering totally OT. First, take a look at CCC 1825, wherein the Apostle Paul’s definition of love (charity) is cited:
1825 Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies."100 The Lord asks us to love as he does, even our enemies, to make ourselves the neighbor of those farthest away, and to love children and the poor as Christ himself.101
The Apostle Paul has given an incomparable depiction of charity: "charity is patient and kind, charity is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Charity does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Charity bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."102
Is name-calling a way of loving others as Jesus loves us? I doubt it.
Now, you say that sw85’s epithets do not “lack charity” because Ms. Fluke is deemed to be promoting contraception and “illicit sexual activity” (“sleeping around”?) which are “evil”. I am inferring that, if you perceive someone to be a sinner, “anything goes” in an attempt to warn them that their soul is in peril. Is that correct? I refer you to an article by Fr. Andrew Apostoli on CatholicCulture.org:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8158&cfid=36820235&cftoken=75597183
A few pertinent quotes from same:
“To admonish the sinner begins by admonishing one’s self. After all, we are all sinners. Humility is the virtue by which we recognize our sinfulness and our weakness, thus realizing that we ourselves depend upon God’s mercy to forgive us our sins and upon His grace to strengthen us to resist sin in the future.”
“To admonish others effectively, there are two other points we must keep in mind. First, we must practice what we preach. In other words, we have to be working at striving for holiness and avoiding sin in our own lives if we expect others to do the same. It has been said, ‘I can’t hear what you are saying because of what you are doing!’ The approach, ‘Do what I say and not what I do,’ will never work. The second point is to avoid the terrible attitude of self righteousness with its judgmental view of others. Self-righteousness puts a person into the mindset of the Pharisees who were quick to condemn sin in others but overlooked it in themselves.”
Finally, if one feels compelled to “admonish the sinner”, then knowing the state of someone’s soul is assumed. And one more quote about judging someone’s words:
*Matthew *12:36
36 “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless **word ** they utter; 37 for by your **words ** you will be justified, and by your **words ** you will be condemned."
I hope this settles the question.
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scipio337
Guest
Opposition to abortion encompasses many faiths too, and those that are pro choice are a VAST minority. That would be like saying Fred Phelps represents the general Baptist view on homosexuals. The Dalia Lama is opposed to abortion in nearly all cases. The Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and a vast majority of Protestant Churches oppose abortion. Hinduism and other Vedic religions are opposed to abortion. Orthodox Judaism opposes abortion except for the life of the mother. Abortion is generally forbidden in Sikhism because it is said to interfere with the creative work of God.
So what is your point? Many faith groups also espouse a doctrine of the sanctity of life. So protection of life encompasses many faiths. What is the difference between “social doctrine” and protecting life? Why isn’t Joe Biden called out for wanting to instill a theocracy in America?
The difference, as seen in the enormous difference between Biden’s charitable donations (a whopping average of $369 a year??? 0.2% of his income!!..) and Romney’s, is the difference between conservatism and liberalism: Conservatism holds that we all have to take care of ourselves and our fellow citizens; liberalism holds that the state - funded by some of us - has to.
What’s more, this illustrates that to some people, Leftism is a religion which requires more fidelity than the Catholic Church.
Biden (and other people whose primary faith isn’t Catholicism, Judaism, or Christianity), but Leftism) will use the government to forcefully take people’s money away and impose whatever policies he thinks Catholic social doctrine favors…
But only when Catholicism agrees with Leftism is Joe Biden prepared to impose the former’s teachings. When his Catholicism does not agree with leftism, it is reduced to being a matter of personal faith, no more binding on non-Catholics than receiving the Eucharist.
Sad, but true.
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scipio337
Guest
So what is your point? Many faith groups also espouse a doctrine of the sanctity of life. So protection of life encompasses many faiths. What is the difference between “social doctrine” and protecting life? Why isn’t Joe Biden called out for wanting to instill a theocracy in America?
The difference, as seen in the enormous difference between Biden’s charitable donations (a whopping average of $369 a year??? 0.2% of his income!!..) and Romney’s, is the difference between conservatism and liberalism: Conservatism holds that we all have to take care of ourselves and our fellow citizens; liberalism holds that the state - funded by some of us - has to.
What’s more, this illustrates that to some people, like Biden and Pelosi, while they are still considered Catholic, Leftism is a religion which requires more fidelity than the Catholic Church.
Biden (and other people whose primary faith isn’t Catholicism, Judaism, or Christianity), but Leftism) will use the government to forcefully take people’s money away and impose whatever policies he thinks Catholic social doctrine favors…
But only when Catholicism agrees with Leftism is Joe Biden prepared to impose the former’s teachings. When his Catholicism does not agree with leftism, it is reduced to being a matter of personal faith, no more binding on non-Catholics than receiving the Eucharist.
Sad, but true.
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ProVobis
Guest
Not that it matters to me, but I take it you would consider people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates “conservative” by your standards?
But the important point is, what’s the difference in what you call them? Moneyless people can (and usually do) take care of one another too.
BTW, you were responding to yourself in your last post. A little confusing there.
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scipio337
Guest
Probably not, as charitable giving isn’t the only determining factor, by which, you miss my point of the doublethink required for some pick and choose which parts of my faith they want to apply to my political life all while claiming they don’t want to “impose” their beliefs on others.
Sorry for the previous double post, too late to delete.
Suudy
Active member
And employers provide a service by providing jobs. It is a 2 way street.
But my point is that employment is not a service, so it isn’t about “Catholics only serving Catholics” regarding employment. That’s what it sounded like you were saying.
And this has already been answered, especially by reference to the Motu Proprio.But what I meant is what I said.
- Should Catholics only employee Catholics? 2) Should Catholic colleges only educate Catholics? 3) Should Catholics only serve Catholics? I’m not sure what your confusion was.
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iloveangels
Guest
Interesting Document -** In Caritate Ministranda **
"Dispositive Part
"Consequently, upon the proposal of the Cardinal President of the Pontifical Council Cor Unum, and after consultation with the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, I establish and decree the following:
“Art. 1. - § 1. The faithful have the right to join in associations and to establish agencies to carry out specific charitable services, especially on behalf of the poor and suffering. To the extent that these are linked to the charitable service of the Church’s Pastors and/or intend to use for this purpose contributions made by the faithful, they must submit their own Statutes for the approval of the competent ecclesiastical authority and comply with the following norms.
§ 2. Similarly, it is also the right of the faithful to establish foundations to fund concrete charitable initiatives, in accordance with the norms of canons 1303 of the Code of Canon Law (CIC) and 1047 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO). If foundations of this type correspond to the characteristics set forth in § 1, they will also observe, congrua congruis referendo, the provisions of the present law.
§ 3. In addition to observing the canonical legislation, the collective charitable initiatives to which this Motu Proprio refers are required to follow Catholic principles in their activity and they may not accept commitments which could in any way affect the observance of those principles.
§ 4. Agencies and foundations for charitable purposes promoted by Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life are required to comply with these norms, and they must follow the prescriptions of canons 312 § 2 CIC and 575 § 2 CCEO.”
To Be Continued.
"Dispositive Part
"Consequently, upon the proposal of the Cardinal President of the Pontifical Council Cor Unum, and after consultation with the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, I establish and decree the following:
“Art. 1. - § 1. The faithful have the right to join in associations and to establish agencies to carry out specific charitable services, especially on behalf of the poor and suffering. To the extent that these are linked to the charitable service of the Church’s Pastors and/or intend to use for this purpose contributions made by the faithful, they must submit their own Statutes for the approval of the competent ecclesiastical authority and comply with the following norms.
§ 2. Similarly, it is also the right of the faithful to establish foundations to fund concrete charitable initiatives, in accordance with the norms of canons 1303 of the Code of Canon Law (CIC) and 1047 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO). If foundations of this type correspond to the characteristics set forth in § 1, they will also observe, congrua congruis referendo, the provisions of the present law.
§ 3. In addition to observing the canonical legislation, the collective charitable initiatives to which this Motu Proprio refers are required to follow Catholic principles in their activity and they may not accept commitments which could in any way affect the observance of those principles.
§ 4. Agencies and foundations for charitable purposes promoted by Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life are required to comply with these norms, and they must follow the prescriptions of canons 312 § 2 CIC and 575 § 2 CCEO.”
To Be Continued.
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iloveangels
Guest
In Caritate Ministranda - the Pope’s brand new Motu Proprio
Continued…
Continued…
- "Art. 2. - § 1. The Statutes of each charitable agency referred to in the preceding article must also contain, in addition to its institutional offices and structures of governance in accordance with canon 95 § 1 CIC, the guiding principles and objectives of the initiative, the management of funds, the profile of its workers, as well as the reports and information which must be presented to the competent ecclesiastical authority.
§ 2. A charitable agency may use the name ‘Catholic’ only with the written consent of the competent authority, as laid down by canon 300 CIC.
§ 3. Agencies promoted by the faithful for charitable purposes can have an Ecclesiastical Assistant appointed in accordance with the Statutes, according to the norm of canons 324 § 2 and 317 CIC.
§ 4. At the same time, the ecclesiastical authority must bear in mind its duty to regulate the exercise of the rights of the faithful in accordance with canons 223 § 2 CIC and 26 § 3 CCEO, and thus to avoid the proliferation of charitable initiatives to the detriment of their activity and effectiveness with regard to their stated goals.
"Art. 3. - § 1. With regard to the preceding articles, it is understood that the competent authority at the respective levels is that indicated by canons 312 CIC and 575 CCEO.
§ 2. For agencies not approved at the national level, even though they operate in different Dioceses, the competent authority is understood to be the diocesan Bishop of the place where the agency has its principal office. In any event, the agency has the duty to inform the Bishops of other Dioceses where it operates and to respect the guidelines for the activities of the various charitable agencies present in those Dioceses.
"Art. 4. § 1. The diocesan Bishop exercises his proper pastoral solicitude for the service of charity in the particular Church entrusted to him as its Pastor, guide and the one primarily responsible for that service.
§ 2. The diocesan Bishop encourages and supports the initiatives and works of service to neighbour in his particular Church, and encourages in the faithful the spirit of practical charity as an expression of the Christian life and sharing in the mission of the Church, as indicated in canons 215 and 222 CIC and 25 and 18 CCEO.
§ 3. It is the responsibility of the diocesan Bishop to ensure that in the activities and management of these agencies the norms of the Church’s universal and particular law are respected, as well as the intentions of the faithful who made donations or bequests for these specific purposes.
"Art. 5. - The diocesan Bishop is to ensure that the Church enjoys the right to carry out charitable activities, and he is to take care that the faithful and the institutions under his supervision comply with the legitimate civil legislation in this area.*
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iloveangels
Guest
In Caritate Ministranda - the Pope’s brand new Motu Proprio
Continued…
"Art. 6. – It is the responsibility of the diocesan Bishop, as indicated by canons 394 § 1 CIC and 203 § 1 CCEO, to coordinate within his territory the different works of charitable service, both those promoted by the Hierarchy itself and those arising from initiatives of the faithful, without prejudice to their proper autonomy in accordance with their respective Statutes. In particular, he is to take care that their activities keep alive the spirit of the Gospel.
"Art. 7. - § 1. The agencies referred to in Article 1 § 1 are required to select their personnel from among persons who share, or at least respect, the Catholic identity of these works.
§ 2. To ensure an evangelical witness in the service of charity, the diocesan Bishop is to take care that those who work in the Church’s charitable apostolate, along with due professional competence, give an example of Christian life and witness to a formation of heart which testifies to a faith working through charity. To this end, he is also to provide for their theological and pastoral formation, through specific curricula agreed upon by the officers of various agencies and through suitable aids to the spiritual life.
"Art. 8. – Wherever necessary, due to the number and variety of initiatives, the diocesan Bishop is to establish in the Church entrusted to his care an Office to direct and coordinate the service of charity in his name.
"Art. 9. - § 1. The Bishop is to encourage in every parish of his territory the creation of a local Caritas service or a similar body, which will also promote in the whole community educational activities aimed at fostering a spirit of sharing and authentic charity. When appropriate, this service is to be established jointly by various parishes in the same territory.
§ 2. It is the responsibility of the Bishop and the respective parish priest to ensure that together with Caritas, other charitable initiatives can coexist and develop within the parish under the general coordination of the parish priest, taking into account, however, the prescriptions of Article 2 § 4 above.
§ 3. It is the duty of the diocesan Bishop and the respective parish priests to see that in this area the faithful are not led into error or misunderstanding; hence they are to prevent publicity being given through parish or diocesan structures to initiatives which, while presenting themselves as charitable, propose choices or methods at odds with the Church’s teaching.
"Art. 10. - § 1. It is the responsibility of the Bishop to supervise the ecclesiastical goods of the charitable agencies subject to his authority.
§ 2. It is the duty of the diocesan Bishop to ensure that the proceeds of collections made in accordance with canons 1265 and 1266 CIC and canons 1014 and 1015 CCEO are used for their stated purposes.
§ 3. In particular, the diocesan Bishop is to ensure that charitable agencies dependent upon him do not receive financial support from groups or institutions that pursue ends contrary to Church’s teaching. Similarly, lest scandal be given to the faithful, the diocesan Bishop is to ensure that these charitable agencies do not accept contributions for initiatives whose ends, or the means used to pursue them, are not in conformity with the Church’s teaching.
§ 4. In a particular way, the Bishop is to see that the management of initiatives dependent on him offers a testimony of Christian simplicity of life. To this end, he will ensure that salaries and operational expenses, while respecting the demands of justice and a necessary level of professionalism, are in due proportion to analogous expenses of his diocesan Curia.
§ 5. To permit the ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Article 3 § 1 to exercise its duty of supervision, the agencies mentioned in Article 1 § 1, are required to submit to the competent Ordinary an annual financial report in a way which he himself will indicate.
To Be Continued.
Continued…
"Art. 6. – It is the responsibility of the diocesan Bishop, as indicated by canons 394 § 1 CIC and 203 § 1 CCEO, to coordinate within his territory the different works of charitable service, both those promoted by the Hierarchy itself and those arising from initiatives of the faithful, without prejudice to their proper autonomy in accordance with their respective Statutes. In particular, he is to take care that their activities keep alive the spirit of the Gospel.
"Art. 7. - § 1. The agencies referred to in Article 1 § 1 are required to select their personnel from among persons who share, or at least respect, the Catholic identity of these works.
§ 2. To ensure an evangelical witness in the service of charity, the diocesan Bishop is to take care that those who work in the Church’s charitable apostolate, along with due professional competence, give an example of Christian life and witness to a formation of heart which testifies to a faith working through charity. To this end, he is also to provide for their theological and pastoral formation, through specific curricula agreed upon by the officers of various agencies and through suitable aids to the spiritual life.
"Art. 8. – Wherever necessary, due to the number and variety of initiatives, the diocesan Bishop is to establish in the Church entrusted to his care an Office to direct and coordinate the service of charity in his name.
"Art. 9. - § 1. The Bishop is to encourage in every parish of his territory the creation of a local Caritas service or a similar body, which will also promote in the whole community educational activities aimed at fostering a spirit of sharing and authentic charity. When appropriate, this service is to be established jointly by various parishes in the same territory.
§ 2. It is the responsibility of the Bishop and the respective parish priest to ensure that together with Caritas, other charitable initiatives can coexist and develop within the parish under the general coordination of the parish priest, taking into account, however, the prescriptions of Article 2 § 4 above.
§ 3. It is the duty of the diocesan Bishop and the respective parish priests to see that in this area the faithful are not led into error or misunderstanding; hence they are to prevent publicity being given through parish or diocesan structures to initiatives which, while presenting themselves as charitable, propose choices or methods at odds with the Church’s teaching.
"Art. 10. - § 1. It is the responsibility of the Bishop to supervise the ecclesiastical goods of the charitable agencies subject to his authority.
§ 2. It is the duty of the diocesan Bishop to ensure that the proceeds of collections made in accordance with canons 1265 and 1266 CIC and canons 1014 and 1015 CCEO are used for their stated purposes.
§ 3. In particular, the diocesan Bishop is to ensure that charitable agencies dependent upon him do not receive financial support from groups or institutions that pursue ends contrary to Church’s teaching. Similarly, lest scandal be given to the faithful, the diocesan Bishop is to ensure that these charitable agencies do not accept contributions for initiatives whose ends, or the means used to pursue them, are not in conformity with the Church’s teaching.
§ 4. In a particular way, the Bishop is to see that the management of initiatives dependent on him offers a testimony of Christian simplicity of life. To this end, he will ensure that salaries and operational expenses, while respecting the demands of justice and a necessary level of professionalism, are in due proportion to analogous expenses of his diocesan Curia.
§ 5. To permit the ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Article 3 § 1 to exercise its duty of supervision, the agencies mentioned in Article 1 § 1, are required to submit to the competent Ordinary an annual financial report in a way which he himself will indicate.
To Be Continued.
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iloveangels
Guest
In Caritate Ministranda (the pope’s new motu proprio) says:
“§ 2. To ensure an evangelical witness in the service of charity, the diocesan Bishop is to take care that those who work in the Church’s charitable apostolate, along with due professional competence, give an example of Christian life and witness to a formation of heart which testifies to a faith working through charity. To this end, he is also to provide for their theological and pastoral formation, through specific curricula agreed upon by the officers of various agencies and through suitable aids to the spiritual life.”
It’s actually the US government that says that Catholic institutions have to hire only Catholics or be fined. The Church says that employees of Catholic charities must accept specific curricula of theological and pastoral formation defined by the bishop.
Does that mean that the great majority-and maybe all- of our employees will be Catholic? Probably. That’s a good thing and a big improvement.
F
fix
Guest
Not only is this not settled but you misjudge the post and misdirect the poster’s position.
The poster is not guilty of your charges or misuse of the quotes you provide. He characterized a concrete situation. He was not admonishing the sinner. He was not being uncharitable. Your misinterpretation seems to allow for scandal and rash judgement.
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