Gonzales: unfit for duty

[gilliam]

Interesting discussion going on amongst the blogs on tourture:

We are finally getting to the heart of the matter. Michael Totten wrote in response to an Andrew Sullivan post:

I won’t climb down an inch in my opposition to torture. And I’m not talking about make-believe “torture,” I mean real actual torture, the kind Andrew Sullivan is talking about here:

Let’s retire at the start the notion that the only torture that has been used by the U.S. has been against known members of al Qaeda. This is not true. Many innocent men and boys were raped, brutally beaten, crucified for hours (a more accurate term than put in “stress positions”), left in their own excrement, sodomized, electrocuted, had chemicals from fluorescent lights poured on them, forced to lie down on burning metal till they were unrecognizable from burns - all this in Iraq alone, at several prisons as well as Abu Ghraib. I spent a week reading all the official reports over Christmas for a forthcoming review essay. Abu Ghraib is but one aspect of a pervasive pattern of torture and abuse that, in my view, is only beginning to sink in.

If someone were to ask me where I think we ought to draw the line while interrogating prisoners, I couldn’t answer. I don’t know. A question like that isn’t exactly a no-brainer. Reasonable people can argue about it and, most likely, come up with a reasonable compromise. But I will say this: raping, electrocuting, and crucifying boys (or girls or adults or anyone else) absolutely is over the line.

​

there is more here.

 

[Nichevo]

Matt25:

Is it not the task of both Christians and Democracies to apply much much much higher standards of conduct to their actons than their enemies do to theirs?

It is and we do. Would our enemies help to rebuild lands where they were in combat? The Taliban did almost nothing to rebuild the parts of Afghanistan they controlled after the Soviet withdrawal, and went out of their way to destroy any thing at all that deviated even slightly from Wahabbist Sunni Islam and Shari’a Law.

In Iraq today, more people have electricity, phone service, and running water than ever had it during the 30 years or so of the Baathist regimes. Newspapers (even the anti-American ones) enjoy a freedom from censorship that they are still learning to accept.

In Iraq, those who were abused by the rogue element at Abu Ghraib can witness and take part in the courts martial that will soon begin against their abusers. The Iraqi people see firsthand that when we commit a wrong, it may take time but, the effort will be made to correct it.

We even invited the Muslim world to observe our political process directly by having Al-Arabiya and Al-Jazeera correspondents at our conventions.

What did the Baathists do for Iraqis besides kill them without fear of retribution? How did the Taliban make Afghanistan a better place? Was it by oppressing women according to a 15th century text? Was it by destroying any indicator of another religious faith such as the two statues of Buddha? Was it the continued reliance on opium in order to flood the world with yet even more heroin? Or was it turning the nation into the new International House of Jihad?

Applying higher standards than your opponent doesn’t mean turning your back on him or turning the other cheek out of some sense of fairness. When commited to battle, YOUR JOB IS TO WIN, that is your sole objective. When commited to peace YOUR JOB IS TO WIN, That is the sole objective Our higher standards are why we commit to winning the war and the peace.

 

[dumspirospero]

It is not an act of superior culture…but it isn’t torture either…simulating and actually forcing them to do so is two different ball games. Like I said before…NO TORTURE…This is such a joke. You are complaining about posed pictures, yet I don’t hear your outcry over the Nick Berg beheading…get a grip on reality. Why do you have such a double standard?
St. James:

I guess that forcing prisoners to simulate homosexual sex acts is just part of our superior culture which we are bringing to Iraq.

Prisoners were, in fact, tortured at Abu Ghraib.

 

[Matt25]

Nichevo:

Applying higher standards than your opponent doesn’t mean turning your back on him or turning the other cheek out of some sense of fairness. When commited to battle, YOUR JOB IS TO WIN, that is your sole objective. When commited to peace YOUR JOB IS TO WIN, That is the sole objective Our higher standards are why we commit to winning the war and the peace.

Actually the line about turning the other comes from Jesus, He said(Matt5,38-40)-
"It hath been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other: and if a man contend with thee in judgement, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him.

 

[St.James]

dumspirospero:

It is not an act of superior culture…but it isn’t torture either…simulating and actually forcing them to do so is two different ball games. Like I said before…NO TORTURE…This is such a joke. You are complaining about posed pictures, yet I don’t hear your outcry over the Nick Berg beheading…get a grip on reality. Why do you have such a double standard?

Does the beheading of Nick Berg by a terrorist somehow rationalize the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners by American solders at Abu Ghraib to you?

Is this Catholic thought?

 

[burnside]

While i would agree that there are those who judge America unfairly,there are also posters who think America can do no wrong.Bet you made good classroom bullies.It reminds me of a guy who checked lorries in to his factory and had a habit of abusing the lorry drivers.One day,a lorry driver,who looked quite
small in his cabin,got out and bounced him all over the factory.
When he stepped out his legs went on for ever.
Some posters talk aggressively,knowing full well they are talking from behind the safety of a computer screen.

 

[dumspirospero]

I don’t know if you are referring to me burnside…but this is the deal. I am not a classroom bully, nor do I believe that America can do no wrong…what I don’t believe is that a group of people or a culture should not be judged by the actions of a few. For instance, if you start doing that, then one must argue that the Catholic religion should be dissolved because the actions of a few bad priest…or that the African American race is inferior because the majority of people in prison are African Americans…all of this is nonsense and couldn’t be further from the truth…but for some reason people like to judge America by the actions of a handful…I will not stand for that. I am a vet and I love this nation as much as anything and I will not see her slandered…I do not hide behind a keyboard…I have faced trials and hardships equal to any man. The problem is people need to truly know what they are talking about before spreading lies as the truth.

burnside:

While i would agree that there are those who judge America unfairly,there are also posters who think America can do no wrong.Bet you made good classroom bullies.It reminds me of a guy who checked lorries in to his factory and had a habit of abusing the lorry drivers.One day,a lorry driver,who looked quite
small in his cabin,got out and bounced him all over the factory.
When he stepped out his legs went on for ever.
Some posters talk aggressively,knowing full well they are talking from behind the safety of a computer screen.

 

[davy39]

dumspirospero:

It is not an act of superior culture…but it isn’t torture either…simulating and actually forcing them to do so is two different ball games. Like I said before…NO TORTURE…This is such a joke. You are complaining about posed pictures, yet I don’t hear your outcry over the Nick Berg beheading…get a grip on reality. Why do you have such a double standard?

Some people complained that depriving the prisoners of proper sleep was a form of torture. Give me a break!! What did they think being a prisoner was going to be? Like the country club? If they do anything to our guys and girls, all they say is that it was done by a few extremists. MOST of them have it better being prisoners that they did before.

 

[davy39]

dumspirospero:

It is not an act of superior culture…but it isn’t torture either…simulating and actually forcing them to do so is two different ball games. Like I said before…NO TORTURE…This is such a joke. You are complaining about posed pictures, yet I don’t hear your outcry over the Nick Berg beheading…get a grip on reality. Why do you have such a double standard?

 

[dumspirospero]

My thoughts exactly.

davy39:

Some people complained that depriving the prisoners of proper sleep was a form of torture. Give me a break!! What did they think being a prisoner was going to be? Like the country club? If they do anything to our guys and girls, all they say is that it was done by a few extremists. MOST of them have it better being prisoners that they did before.

 

[Nichevo]

burnside:

While i would agree that there are those who judge America unfairly,there are also posters who think America can do no wrong.Bet you made good classroom bullies.It reminds me of a guy who checked lorries in to his factory and had a habit of abusing the lorry drivers.One day,a lorry driver,who looked quite
small in his cabin,got out and bounced him all over the factory.
When he stepped out his legs went on for ever.
Some posters talk aggressively,knowing full well they are talking from behind the safety of a computer screen.

If you’d like to spar or go a few rounds the next time you’re in the states, look me up. Meanwhile, keep it on topic and away from juvenile psychoanalysis (did you get bullied?). It reminds me of passive aggressive people who just snipe with sarcasm and poor attempts at demonizing the poster rather then contributing anything to the actual debate.
I have no illusions about my country being perfect. As a professional soldier, I have seen more things done by my country both good and bad, than you can imagine. When we screw up I don’t deny it. In the case of the War on Terror, I have seen that the legitimate abuses that have taken place on our part were due to the actions of deranged individuals who are being dealt with. I have also seen other parties attempt to place blame for things on entire organizations or administrations due to their own personal agendas. The legitimate cases of torture (like those imbeciles at Abu Ghraib) were due to individual choices. The actions taken by terrorists the world over are due to a mindset of true arrogance and superiority. It’s not that I believe America can do no wrong, it’s that I believe terrorists can do no right.

 

[HagiaSophia]

burnside:

Bet you made good classroom bullies

Some posters talk aggressively,knowing full well they are talking from behind the safety of a computer screen.

Hmm - then I guess you will not be calling other people bullies behind the safety of your computer screen???

 

[thestickman]

dumspirospero:

Norwich…just incase you fail to recognize this, I will clue you in…that amendment pertains to AMERICAN CITIZENS…that means you, and the rest of the world does not fall under that amendment, furthermore, a terrorist does not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention, and it was out of the kindness of our hearts that we allowed the Geneva Convention to be applied to them…in my personal opinion…I don’t believe they should be protected under it. We don’t owe them ****, and we certainly don’t have to afford them any rights…but we still do.
To be honest, they should all hang or face a firing squad if a tribunal finds them guilty.

!!!

 

[burnside]

Nichevo:

If you’d like to spar or go a few rounds the next time you’re in the states, look me up. Meanwhile, keep it on topic and away from juvenile psychoanalysis (did you get bullied?).

I wouldn’t have a problem going a few rounds with you and,no,i
didn’t get bullied.When i was in my teens,i got in a fight and was winning till i got headbutted.I took up karate.
Incidentally,i thought i was on a catholic website.It would seem
Americans are good at dishing out the verbals,but not very good at being on the receiving end.

 

[Fitz]

Nichevo:

It’s not that I believe America can do no wrong, it’s that I believe terrorists can do no right.

Well said! :clapping:

 

[Fitz]

burnside:

Americans are good at dishing out the verbals,but not very good at being on the receiving end.

I would never judge your country by your comments, and I would like you to speak to all of us as individuals. We are all different on the forums. We are from all different areas of the country and our experiences have shaped us. Our common thread is the belief in our Saviour. Have people on this forum deliberately called you names when they didn’t like your opinion? If so, please report that to the moderators. It won’t be tollerated by them. The rules are clear.

I personally think Gonzales has been the recipient of the Democrats wrath that they lost the election. He will be good for the job, and he will be confirmed I think. He never supported torture. Some means of getting information is necessary, and most would agree on that.

 

[gilliam]

I listened to much of the committee hearing on Gonzales this weekend. There will be a follow-up hearing as well. I don’t remember anyone, Democrat or Republican at the meeting who did not say that Gonzales was an outstanding candidate for the position and they endorse him. He will be overwhelmingly confirmed by both sides of the isle when they get to a vote.

It seems the Dems simply want to use the hearings as a place to levy attacks at the Bush administration. One of the Democratic senators actually said something to that effect at the meeting.

 

[Matt25]

gilliam:

I listened to much of the committee hearing on Gonzales this weekend. There will be a follow-up hearing as well. I don’t remember anyone, Democrat or Republican at the meeting who did not say that Gonzales was an outstanding candidate for the position and they endorse him. He will be overwhelmingly confirmed by both sides of the isle when they get to a vote.

It seems the Dems simply want to use the hearings as a place to levy attacks at the Bush administration. One of the Democratic senators actually said something to that effect at the meeting.

What exactly was the “something to that effect” of which you speak?

 

[Nichevo]

burnside:

I wouldn’t have a problem going a few rounds with you and,no,i
didn’t get bullied.When i was in my teens,i got in a fight and was winning till i got headbutted.I took up karate.
Incidentally,i thought i was on a catholic website.It would seem
Americans are good at dishing out the verbals,but not very good at being on the receiving end.

I thought I was on a Catholic website as well until someone started throwing insults out rather than focusing on the topic at hand. You then shared an anecdote that had as much to do with the thread as the posts by your compatriot Norwich. My sarcastic riposte to your anecodte (which can be read at leisure by scrolling up) was rather funny I thought. You then made your comment about only being combative from behind a computer, I wanted to dissuade you of that belief, I hope I have. If you want to spar sometime, the offer is (in all seriousness, as we are always looking for people who like to break a sweat) still open.

I haven’t had a problem dishing out the verbals nor have I had a problem receiving them, when they’re relevant (feel free to review my other posts in the forums.) What I have a problem with is ad hominem attacks in a post that has nothing to do with the thread.
If you want a debate, offer something more than your post which initiated my response. I will be happy to engage in a debate.

Sorry to hear about the headbutt, they hurt. I hope your study of Karate helped, you may find the martial art discussion thread in The Water Cooler forum of interest.

 

[gilliam]

Matt25:

What exactly was the “something to that effect” of which you speak?

If I remember correctly, what he said was that the confirmation hearing would give them (him?) and opportunity to examine the administration’s view on torture. Although he recognized the AG candidate was only a consultant to the president, or something like that. It was a pretty convoluted reason to start preaching on the evils of torture (which is what he proceeded to do.) In this case, there was really no question asked of Gonzales by this Senator (I think it was Biden).