Good work = salvation is it true?

[I_v_I]

This is very Catholic of you to say, l v l!

This was the response to my quote:

Originally Posted by I v I View Post
We definitely must come to Jesus willingly, however; the will to do so again comes from God giving us that will. Not from your flesh deciding on it’s own. Remember Believers were dead in their sins, they could not turn to Jesus unless God made them to do so.

If this is so Catholic why does Paul c disagree?

It would clear things up if you’ll would point out the errors in doctrine of one another because there are points where you’ll don’t seem to agree.

 

[PRmerger]

This was the response to my quote:

If this is so Catholic why does Paul c disagree?

It would clear things up if you’ll would point out the errors in doctrine of one another because there are points where you’ll don’t seem to agree.

Here is what paulc said:

Catholics are not Calvinists. We don’t believe that men are dead in sin. We do believe that all men are born with original sin (with the exception of Mary and of course, Jesus), but that doesn’t preclude man from accepting God’s grace. After all, we know from Genesis that man was made in the image and likeness of God and that everything God made was good.

And here’s what you said that’s 100% Catholic:

We definitely must come to Jesus willingly, however; the will to do so again comes from God giving us that will. Not from your flesh deciding on it’s own. Remember Believers were dead in their sins, they could not turn to Jesus unless God made them to do so.

paulc was not disagreeing with your comment above, but with your statement that men are “dead” in their sins.

And I agree 100% with paul.

 

[PRmerger]

It would clear things up if you’ll would point out the errors in doctrine of one another because there are points where you’ll don’t seem to agree.

Not sure what you mean here?

 

[PRmerger]

Just so we’re on the same page: you know that for it to be a mortal sin:
-it has to be a serious subject matter (let’s make it murder here)
-this man has to know it’s wrong
-yet he does it of his own free will anyway.

So if he knows that murder is wrong, decides that he’s going to kill his wife anyway, drags her around by her hair (I actually heard a story of a man who did this to his wife), kills her in some heinous fashion and then dies of a heart attack…well, I think this man goes straight where he deserves.

Where do you think he goes? Surely not to heaven, right?

Would you mind answering this hypothetical, l v l? Where do you believe this man who was a Believer who decides that he’s going to drag his wife around by her hair and then murders her in some heinous fashion goes–heaven or hell?

 

[paul_c]

This was the response to my quote:

If this is so Catholic why does Paul c disagree?

It would clear things up if you’ll would point out the errors in doctrine of one another because there are points where you’ll don’t seem to agree.

We don’t disagree on doctrine. We were answering separate points you made.

 

[I_v_I]

Yes, and its important that we apply those principles as we go forward in this discussion.

I agree.

God can do anything he wants, by definition, and no one can thwart it… That’s not the issue here. The issue is understanding what God wants and how he wants it.

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone?

God is both merciful and just. He will save anyone who asks to be saved but he will also condemn all those that turn away from him.

Where do you find in scripture that anyone can ask to be saved unless God first gives them the faith to do so?

Rom 3:10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;

Seems scripture says all have turned away and no one seeks Him…

While he wants all men to be saved, he wants men to have free will even more.

I believe men do have “free will” in the sense that they do only those things which they want to do and nothing against their will. However, their will aligns perfectly with God’s Sovereign Will for them.

This is why Calvinism is wrong, because it assume that God would make a man for the sole purpose of condemning him.

I am not very well versed on Calvinism, but anyone who would say that the sole purpose of anyone is to be condemned to Hell would be against the Bible’s teachings. There is certainly more of a purpose for even those who’s final destiny is Hell.

However, the Bible indeed tells us that God formed men for HIS purposes and one of His purposes in creating man was to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known. Therefore He indeed formed “vessels of wrath”.

Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

God gives everyone the chance to enter eternal life.

Absolutely! However, the only way anyone can turn to Him is if He gives them the faith to do so.

Unfortunately all do not take advantage of that.

No one can take advantage without God willing them to do so.

After all, do you believe that EVERYONE goes to heaven?

Of course not.

Of course God is omnipotent. No one debates this, do they?

You’d think not lol.

Catholics are not Calvinists. We don’t believe that men are dead in sin.

I have heard different a few times even on this board. This is something you’ll need to clear up.

However I would hope you do believe men are dead in sins. There are several scriptures that say so.

We do believe that all men are born with original sin (with the exception of Mary and of course, Jesus), but that doesn’t preclude man from accepting God’s grace. After all, we know from Genesis that man was made in the image and likeness of God and that everything God made was good.

I think you are confused here and I would hope your Catholic brethren would chime in. The fall changed things drastically.

None of these passages says that future sins are forgiven.

Sure it does. In order to discuss you need to tell me why you believe it doesn’t by giving your explanation of the text.

Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely

27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

The Holy Spirit gives us a distinct contrast between Jesus, The High Priest, and the former priests. He tells us that the priests had to continue to give sacrifices day after day to cover the sins that were committed day after day. In contrast we are told that through Jesus’ sacrifice this is no longer necessary. His sacrifice is sufficient to cover all.

If it is not saying this, what do you believe the contrast of the two is getting at? What do you believe is the point of this text?

In fact, it makes no sense for God to condone future sins against him.

No one said He condones any sins. I think you meant forgive before hand though. But honestly, it doesn’t make sense that God would forgive any sins. It is all through His great mercy.

Read Romans 3, it specifically says that grace is for sins previously committed:
21But now* the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth as an expiation,* through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, 26through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus. :

Rom 3 contrast the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, Law through works with Grace through faith. In doing so it makes reference to sins committed before Christ’s Sacrifice as the blood of animals never atoned for the sins of the OT saints. Therefore God withheld judgement against those sins. These are the “previous sins” this text refers to.

 

[PRmerger]

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone?

No, l v l. God does not “try” to do anything. That is an anthropomorphism.

Unless you have a verse that says “God tries to save everyone”?

Also, what say you about your hypothetical Christian who commits murder and dies? Where do you believe he ends up?

 

[I_v_I]

Here is what paulc said:

And here’s what you said that’s 100% Catholic:

paulc was not disagreeing with your comment above, but with your statement that men are “dead” in their sins.

And I agree 100% with paul.

I wrote “Remember Believers were dead in their sins…” in my supposedly 100% Catholic quote lol. Which is it?

 

[PRmerger]

I wrote “Remember Believers were dead in their sins…” in my supposedly 100% Catholic quote lol. Which is it?

My bad! I should not have included the “dead in their sin” in your quote.

 

[PRmerger]

My bad! I should not have included the “dead in their sin” in your quote.

And just so we’re clear, we who are dead** to** sin become alive again through our baptism.

Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, Christians are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and so participate in the life of the Risen Lord. Following Christ and united with him, Christians can strive to be “imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love” by conforming their thoughts, words and actions to the “mind . . . which is yours in Christ Jesus,” and by following his example. CCC 1694

 

[fbl9]

Where do you find in scripture that anyone can ask to be saved unless God first gives them the faith to do so?

 

[paul_c]

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone?

With God, there is no “trying”. He does what he wants and there is nothing that could stop him. God makes it possible for all to be saved. Baptism and the accompanying grace are freely given to anyone who asks for it.

Where do you find in scripture that anyone can ask to be saved unless God first gives them the faith to do so?

Rom 3:10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;

Seems scripture says all have turned away and no one seeks Him…

Back to the original premise. Scripture can’t contradict itself. Here you are saying that no one seeks God and in the previous sentence you say that God gives them the faith to seek Him. So clearly you are misinterpreting something here, right? Either people seek God or they don’t. This passage from Romans is quoting psalms 14 and 53 (which are nearly identical) and in those psalms, this condemnation is against the “fools.”

I believe men do have “free will” in the sense that they do only those things which they want to do and nothing against their will. However, their will aligns perfectly with God’s Sovereign Will for them.

You are stating the obvious when you agree that men have free will. This can not be denied because it is a fact. But it is not true that our wills are always aligned to God. That is the difference between the saved and the condemned… Those that will go to heaven are aligned with God’s will for them. Those whose actions are not aligned to God’s will for them will be condemned.

I am not very well versed on Calvinism, but anyone who would say that the sole purpose of anyone is to be condemned to Hell would be against the Bible’s teachings. There is certainly more of a purpose for even those who’s final destiny is Hell.

However, the Bible indeed tells us that God formed men for HIS purposes and one of His purposes in creating man was to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known. Therefore He indeed formed “vessels of wrath”.

Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Once again, you are contradicting yourself here. Did God make certain men that were born with no chance of salvation (a Calvinist statement) or does every man have the chance to be saved? (Catholic view). Take for instance, Judas Iscariot. Did God make him for the purpose of betraying Jesus? The Catholic teaching is that Judas did indeed have a choice on whether or not to betray Jesus and he chose poorly. But it is also Catholic teaching that Judas could have been forgiven his sins had he turned back to God. Alas, it appears he did not, choosing instead to kill himself. And note, Judas had a real , unincumbered choice but God knew what he would choose to do.

Absolutely! However, the only way anyone can turn to Him is if He gives them the faith to do so.

Okay, so lets explore this further. Do you think God withholds this faith from some? If so, you have joined the Calvinists in saying that every man’s destiny is predetermined and that men are no better than machines programmed to carry out their roles. This is a very low view of both God and Man. The Catholic view is different. God calls to every man to do his will through concience. Some respond positively (and we call that faith). Others deny the call and will be condemned. So is it God’s fault when you fail to respond to him, or is it our own?

However I would hope you do believe men are dead in sins. There are several scriptures that say so.

Scripture also says that we die to sin in baptism and are reborn of water and Spirit. (John 3:5, romans 6:4) Those that are dead IN sin have not been baptized or have fallen from Grace in Sin.

 

[paul_c]

I think you are confused here and I would hope your Catholic brethren would chime in. The fall changed things drastically.

I am NOT confused. Original sin gave man the tendency to sin, but we can and do rise above that tendency through the graces that come with the sacraments.

Sure it does. In order to discuss you need to tell me why you believe it doesn’t by giving your explanation of the text.

Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely

27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

The Holy Spirit gives us a distinct contrast between Jesus, The High Priest, and the former priests. He tells us that the priests had to continue to give sacrifices day after day to cover the sins that were committed day after day. In contrast we are told that through Jesus’ sacrifice this is no longer necessary. His sacrifice is sufficient to cover all.

You are mislead. These passages say that Jesus died one and for all for the forgivenss of sins. Obviously he doesn’t need to die daily. But we need to ask for that forgiveness through the sacraments and they NEVER say that people will get dispensation for sins they will commit.

If it is not saying this, what do you believe the contrast of the two is getting at? What do you believe is the point of this text?

The point of this text was to say that the temple sacrifices were no longer necessary.

No one said He condones any sins. I think you meant forgive before hand though. But honestly, it doesn’t make sense that God would forgive any sins. It is all through His great mercy.

Think about this. What would be the effect of God forgiving sins that have yet to be committed? It would mean that future sins don’t matter. But we know that they do. All sin is an affront to God. We are forgiven only when we repent of our sins sacramentally. God, through his mercy, gives us a new life in grace as long as we are willing to come back to him. Unrepentent sin is not only not forgiven, it is the cause of condemnation.

Rom 3 contrast the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, Law through works with Grace through faith. In doing so it makes reference to sins committed before Christ’s Sacrifice as the blood of animals never atoned for the sins of the OT saints. Therefore God withheld judgement against those sins. These are the “previous sins” this text refers to.

You are right that Roman’s contrasts the Old and New Covenant. It describes how Jesus’ sacrifice made the old sacrifices obsolete and that circumcision has been replaced by baptism, which forgives sins previously committed whereas the old testament laws didn’t forgive sins at all.

 

[I_v_I]

Would you mind answering this hypothetical, l v l? Where do you believe this man who was a Believer who decides that he’s going to drag his wife around by her hair and then murders her in some heinous fashion goes–heaven or hell?

If memory serves, we’ve addressed this question before. No bother though…

I believe that any True Believer will never be taken from the hand of Christ or the Father. No matter what act they commit, nor any other attempt to remove them from any other power because scripture tells me this.

That being said, I cannot say whether the Lord would allow a truly Saved person to commit such an act. However, if He did they would certainly still be Saved through the Grace and Mercy of the Lord.

Since we covered this type of question before I’ll add this so that my understanding of “free will” will be understood more fully…

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man. And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will, rob the man’s home and in the process kill the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I hope this clears up my understanding…

 

[PRmerger]

I hope this clears up my understanding…

Heh. I can’t help but think this was a Freudian slip? It clears up your understanding. Okay.

This statement reveals what I’ve been thinking: you haven’t really thought out your paradigm and when questioned, you have to “clear up” your “understanding.”

I think your using this forum to clear up your understanding is a good thing.

 

[PRmerger]

If memory serves, we’ve addressed this question before. No bother though…

I believe that any True Believer will never be taken from the hand of Christ or the Father. No matter what act they commit, nor any other attempt to remove them from any other power because scripture tells me this.

That being said, I cannot say whether the Lord would allow a truly Saved person to commit such an act. However, if He did they would certainly still be Saved through the Grace and Mercy of the Lord.

Even if he didn’t repent, he’s still in? His soul is pure? He is clean?

Seriously?

 

[PRmerger]

If memory serves, we’ve addressed this question before. No bother though…

Really? You and I had this conversation before? Could you please cite the thread or post?

I believe that any True Believer will never be taken from the hand of Christ or the Father. No matter what act they commit, nor any other attempt to remove them from any other power because scripture tells me this.

That being said, I cannot say whether the Lord would allow a truly Saved person to commit such an act. However, if He did they would certainly still be Saved through the Grace and Mercy of the Lord.

Ah, the Faux Believer paradigm. There are True Believers; and therefore there must be False Believers.

That is a curious paradigm as it essentially negates Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. For if one believes there’s such a thing as someone who* thinks* he’s saved but actually isn’t, then one can’t know* for certain* that he’s saved, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, the Faux Believer paradigm. There are True Believers; and therefore there must be False Believers.

That is a curious paradigm as it essentially negates Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. For if one believes there’s such a thing as someone who* thinks* he’s saved but actually isn’t, then one can’t know* for certain* that he’s saved, right?

This concept of the Faux Believer brings to mind an amusing exchange I read between apologist John Martignoni and a non-Catholic Christian:

Every believer in once saved always saved that I have ever met, also believes that there are those out there who think they are saved, but really are not – the faux believers, as I call them. So, ask anyone who believes in OSAS these questions (this is from an actual conversation):

Question: Are there people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: Yes, there are.

Question: Are you saved?

Answer: Yes, I am.

Question: How do you know you’re not one of those people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: I know in my heart that I am saved.

Question: Wouldn’t someone who thinks they’re saved, but really aren’t saved, say the same thing?

Answer: I suppose so.

Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?

Answer: I just know.

Question: How do you know?

Answer: I just do.

The whole point of this line of questioning is that, if it is possible to think you’re saved, but not really be saved, then no one can have eternal security – no one can know for sure that they are saved – because anyone who thinks they’re saved could actually be one of those who think they are but really aren’t.

Indeed, there is not a single soul out in the OSAS world that believes he’s a faux believer. But he believes that there’s lots of other hapless folks who are these faux believers.

Curious that, statistically, it’s always the *other *guy who’s a faux believer.

 

[paul_c]

If memory serves, we’ve addressed this question before. No bother though…

I believe that any True Believer will never be taken from the hand of Christ or the Father. No matter what act they commit, nor any other attempt to remove them from any other power because scripture tells me this.

This is a typical evangelical view, to be sure, but it can not be supported by scripture. And remember, we’ve already agreed that scripture can’t contradict itself.
Lets look at what Paul says to the believers in Rome: (Romans 2: 5-10)
5By your stubbornness and impenitent heart,d you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works:* 7eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.9Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11* There is no partiality with God.
and this from Galatians 5:
19* Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,o 20idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,p 21occasions of envy,* drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. .

The simple fact is, if you sin and are not reconciled sacramentally, you will be condemned, whether you are a believer or not. No one can take a man away from Jesus except the man himself, God will not force himself on anyone.

That being said, I cannot say whether the Lord would allow a truly Saved person to commit such an act. However, if He did they would certainly still be Saved through the Grace and Mercy of the Lord.

So in the first sentence, you deny man’s free will. In the second, you deny God’s justice. How do you reconcile this to scripture?

Since we covered this type of question before I’ll add this so that my understanding of “free will” will be understood more fully…

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man. And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will, rob the man’s home and in the process kill the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I hope this clears up my understanding…

Be honest with yourself. What you are describing is not free will. You are describing man as a puppet of God being manipulated every step of the way to carry out God;s purpose. In fact, you have even described a situation where God is causing someone to act unjustly by robbing a home and killing a child. How could a loving God do that? What’s more, you are defining two types of people. The believers who are destined to be saved and the unbelievers who are manipulated for the benefit of the ones who are saved. But God shows no partiality (as shown in the quote from Romans above)

No, man has REAL free will. You and every other member of the human race make decisions every day that will effect their salvation. Don’t you recognize this or do you really believe that nothing you do matters? And if nothing matters, why do you pray, why do you evangelize, why are you spending so much time on this website. Your vary actions deny your stated position

 

[I_v_I]

So in the first sentence, you deny man’s free will. In the second, you deny God’s justice. How do you reconcile this to scripture?

There is no denial of the definition of “free will” we previously agreed on and not sure how you believe God’s justice is denied.

Be honest with yourself.

Always about scripture! To deny the Truth is way too dangerous no matter how much of a blow to my ego or how contrary it is to my own understanding or to what I’ve been taught.

What you are describing is not free will. You are describing man as a puppet of God being manipulated every step of the way to carry out God;s purpose.

Like I said, it fits the definition of free will we agreed on… If that is not what you would like to hold to now that is fine, we can just say there is no free will.

In fact, you have even described a situation where God is causing someone to act unjustly by robbing a home and killing a child.

I have done no such thing. God is not the cause of the evil, man’s wicked heart is. God simply removes His restraining Spirit allowing the wicked flesh more opportunity to indulge itself.

How could a loving God do that?

How does anything I’ve said make Him unloving? And you do know He is more than just a loving God right? There are more characteristics to His Person.

What’s more, you are defining two types of people. The believers who are destined to be saved and the unbelievers who are manipulated for the benefit of the ones who are saved.

I see absolutely no problem with defining two types of people. But don’t get me wrong, Believers’ wills are moved as God pleases as well. Due to the example I chose to label the person an unbeliever because as I said earlier, I’m not sure if the Lord would allow a true Believer to commit such acts as murder. It may very well be that He does, I’m just not certain.

But God shows no partiality (as shown in the quote from Romans above)

Are you really saying that God shows no partiality between His chosen people and those who will come under His wrath? By the way, Believers are not judged nor do they partake of God’s wrath. This means you are reading the text incorrectly. The portion that speaks of partiality refers to nationality (i.e. Jews and Gentiles), not Believers and nonbelievers.

No, man has REAL free will.

What exactly is “real free will” in your opinion and where do you find this in the Bible?

You and every other member of the human race make decisions every day that will effect their salvation.

I agree.

Don’t you recognize this or do you really believe that nothing you do matters?

I do recognize this, but I don’t use my own logic and force it to be scripture. I let scripture inform me and grow my logic from there.

And if nothing matters, why do you pray, why do you evangelize, why are you spending so much time on this website. Your vary actions deny your stated position.

I believe our actions matter, I’ve never said anything to the contrary. I pray for reasons I’ve stated earlier. I evangelize because I am commanded to and faith comes by hearing the word of God. I am spending so much time on this website because we all need help from time to time, even when we think we don’t. My actions are in lock step with my position.