Good work = salvation is it true?

[PRmerger]

Wow. Once again the assurance is from God’s perspective.

As I said, I have no problem with this.

Of course, when you talk about OSAS, you’re talking about your own assurance.

No advocate of OSAS answers this question, “If you died today do you have the assurance of salvation?” by saying, “Well, I’m not certain about myself, but I know God knows everything!”

Since you could be one of those hapless folks who’s actually a FB, you have no assurance of salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Even though the person does not have total assurance, it doesn’t matter. The person is supposed to work out his/her Salvation in fear and trembling. The assurance is in the hands of the Lord. OSAS does not depend on the assurance of the individual person.

Excellent! Then you should answer the question, “Are you saved?” with something like “Well, I don’t judge myself. It is God who judges! While I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am saved yet.”

The assurance is upheld by a God that will not fail to Save those He chooses to Save.

Very Catholic of you to say! Except, of course, if you’re proposing the monstrous and Satanic element that He creates some folks only to be damned to eternity and there’s nothing they can do about that. :bigyikes:

Again. I sure could be.

Yep.

But if God has Saved me, then I have a True Faith in Christ and it is a faith that I will continue in until death. If the Lord has yet to Save me,

Well, l v l, if you’re still alive, (and I’m pretty sure you are ) then you can’t be saved yet. We are truly saved only when we die.

 

[PRmerger]

And the Bible never says “trinity”, but it is inferred from scripture as a whole, no one “added” it.

Actually, you can thank the Catholic Church for discerning this dogma for you. You would not know it were it not for the Church.

One can quote a multitude of Scriptures (see JWs and other non-Trinitarians) to support the view that there is no such thing as The Trinity.

However, thanks to the paradosis of the Apostles through the Catholic Church, the revelation of God was preserved, intact and incorrupt, for you and me.

 

[PRmerger]

TBs do sin, but they will be repentant of this sin and return to right standing with the Lord.

So what about the TB in your hypothetical, who commits a mortal sin and dies of a heart attack before he is able to repent?

In your paradigm, as you stated above, this TB can certainly sin–so there’s no arguing that this murderer is not a TB–and you believe that this murderer still goes to heaven, yes?**

So how do you reconcile that with the fact that nothing unclean can enter heaven? Is this TB’s soul lily white at the time of death?

** (As I type this it sends shivers down my spine–the thought that some believe an unrepentant murderer could be enjoying the Beatific Vision. A more diabolical notion I have never heard!)

 

[I_v_I]

Could you please answer this question? How can a murderer or suicide enter heaven when nothing unclean can enter heaven? Is his soul pure with the black stain of murder and hatred (of others or of self) on it?

Because once He was Saved through his faith, the Righteousness of Christ was imputed to Him. The man’s “righteousness” or lack there of was replaced by the perfect righteousness of Christ.

Rom 4:21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

 

[PRmerger]

Because once He was Saved through his faith, the Righteousness of Christ was imputed to Him. The man’s “righteousness” or lack there of was replaced by the perfect righteousness of Christ.

Rom 4:21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

And what about nothing unclean being able to enter heaven?

Is murder on the soul still considered being clean?

 

[I_v_I]

Now I’m really

Indeed.

Not sure where this emotional and irrational response stems from. You have indeed only quoted certain sections of Scripture. If you want me to point out certain verses you’ve excluded from Scripture I will.

How about this one:
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:48[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve never seen you quote that.

Or this one:
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11.[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve never seen you quote that either.

You have quoted, in our dialogue, some verses from Romans and Hebrews, but that leaves about 25 other books in the NT that you’ve excluded.

I guess I’ll continue…

I think you’ve excluded

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:52[/BIBLEDRB]

and

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

lolololol… So because I haven’t quoted verses that I didn’t need to quote to support my point, I’ve excluded scripture??? ahahahahahaha

Your logic… I love it!

Well I guess you’ve “excluded” the entire book of Ruth from scripture PR. How dare you!

 

[I_v_I]

This article addresses your questions.

excerpt:
You can obtain supernatural life by yielding to actual graces you receive. God keeps giving you these divine pushes, and all you have to do is go along.

For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the
confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted (John 20:21–23). Through the sacrament of penance, through your reconciliation to God, you receive sanctifying grace. But you can lose it again by sinning mortally (1 John 5:16–17).

Keep that word in mind: mortal. It means death. Mortal sins are deadly sins because they kill off this supernatural life, this sanctifying grace. Mortal sins can’t coexist with the supernatural life, because by their nature such sins are saying “No” to God, while sanctifying grace would be saying “Yes.”

Venial sins don’t destroy supernatural life, and they don’t even lessen it. Mortal sins destroy it outright. The trouble with venial sins is that they weaken us, making us more vulnerable to mortal sins.

When you lose supernatural life, there’s nothing you can do on your own to regain it. You’re reduced to the merely natural life again, and no natural act can merit a supernatural reward. You can merit a supernatural reward only by being made able to act above your nature, which you can do only if you have help—grace.

To regain supernatural life, you have to receive actual graces from God. Think of these as helping graces. Such graces differ from sanctifying grace in that they aren’t a quality of the soul and don’t abide in it. Rather, actual graces enable the soul to perform some supernatural act, such as an act of faith or repentance. If the soul responds to actual grace and makes the appropriate supernatural act, it again receives supernatural life.

lol. This has nothing to do with the question I’ve asked lol. I’ve even updated it so that you are sure to understand .

My understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will”:

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man (Believer who killed his wife). And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will, rob the man’s home and in the process kill the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I hope this clears up my understanding…

My questions to you:

In Catholic understanding, would this be a representation of a Just God?

Would Catholic understanding see this as being non Biblical because it shows God Willing men to do His bidding?

In Catholic understanding, is it non Biblical for God to change or manipulate the will of man?

In Catholic understanding, is it unjust for God to hold the individual responsible after commissioning and allowing them to commit these acts?

 

[I_v_I]

OSAS is, as someone else said (fbl9) one of the most illogical (and unscriptural) of doctrines, but the addition of “Well, he’s a Faux Believer and I’m a True Believer and I just know in my heart that I simply couldn’t be a Faux Believer because my heart just tells me so” makes the paradigm truly an absurdity.

I can make any logical statement “illogical” by changing the statement lol. I’ve never said what you’ve made up. Maybe if you just stick with my logical quotes instead of making up your own illogical ones you’d finally understand.

 

[PRmerger]

Well I guess you’ve “excluded” the entire book of Ruth from scripture PR. How dare you!

Yep, except I never made the challenge: “Please point out where I’ve excluded verses from Scripture.”

You did.

Please point out the verses I have excluded from scripture. Take your time lol

 

[steve_b]

I agree one must persevere till the the end. I’ve never said otherwise.

Those spoken of here again were never TB, they were never Saved.

How do you know?

I quoted 2 Pet

“For if, after they have** escaped** the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ**,** they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”

I see that conditional statement in 2 parts

Part #1

one escaped their defilement AFTER “knowledge” of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That tells me that the knowledge received, was sufficient enough i.e. had all the requisites necessary to be effective for the escape… true? If they died in this state, they should go to heaven…correct?

Part #2

However, Re: after escape.

• Peter says in this life, having knowledge NOW, and escaping NOW, doesn’t gurantee one won’t endanger their soul again in the future by sin.
• as an aside, Re: knowledge vs ignorance for one’s actions and beliefs. From the CCC “**1791 **ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.” IOW, we have a responsibility to learn. One can be innocent of their ignorance, providing they don’t purposefully avoid or take little effort to learn what they need to know.

I:

They were professing believers, not only in word but to a point in their outward actions (though not inwardly). However, they turned their back on the way of righteousness so that they would be made manifest that they were never Saved.

In previous posts [http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49) you avoided the subject of mortal sin. Sin that can keep one from heaven if one dies in that sin. To your point, sin is BOTH outward AND inward action and mortal sin is a radical possibility for humans to fall into.

To commit a mortal sin,

1. • An action must be gravely wrong
   • a person must know a particular sin is gravely wrong
   • they commit it anyway
   Re: #1, Scripture identifies certain sin prevents one from inheriting heaven, post #49 above… Keeping one from heaven, by definition, THAT’s grave matter defined.
   
   Re: #2 When one knows #1, then 2 out of 3 requirements for commiting a mortal sin are in place.
   
   Re: #3, One commits the sin. Ergo one commits a mortal sin.
   
   In post #49, I gave many of the sins scripture says prevent a person from going to heaven if one dies with those sins on their soul. Note, they are NOT impossible to commit. Many are actually easy sins to commit. They are mortal/grave/deadly to the soul, whichever term you want to use. Since the soul is immortal, and can’t die, what dies in the soul? It’s Sanctifying grace. The grace necessary to enter heaven is killed in the soul by mortal sin. Described in [1 Jn 5:16…]. Therefore as Paul said, the soul can’t go to heaven. That grace needs to be restored in the soul
   I:
   

   You are also looking at OSAS from the wrong perspective. It is not the man who knows they are eternally held in the Lord’s hand, it is God who knows it. A TB must definitely question his/her faith continually.

   
   
   Is that really what OSAS teaches?
   
   Correct me if I’m wrong, but all the OSAS advocates who post here in these forums, seem to take a differrent position. Of course God knows in advance who will and won’t be saved. The individual does NOT. The OSAS advocates say they DO know for sure they are saved…ONCE AND FOR ALL. No equivocation.

 

[PRmerger]

I can make any logical statement “illogical” by changing the statement lol. I’ve never said what you’ve made up. Maybe if you just stick with my logical quotes instead of making up your own illogical ones you’d finally understand.

If you say so.

You think you’re a True Believer. You say there are Faux Believers. You say it’s possible that you’re not saved…

Again. I sure could be

(kudos to you, BTW, for acknowledging that. That’s HUGE!)

So…

[SIGN]There is no such thing as OSAS. [/SIGN]

Because you simply don’t know if you are saved.

(NB: To be sure, God knows. But the question is for OSAS advocates: do YOU know if you’re saved. And, it turns out, that l v l doesn’t know. )

 

[PRmerger]

Is that really what OSAS teaches?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but all the OSAS advocates who post here in these forums, seem to take a differrent position. Of course God knows in advance who will and won’t be saved. The individual does NOT. The OSAS advocates say they DO know for sure they are saved…ONCE AND FOR ALL. No equivocation.

Yep–in my many, many conversations with OSAS advocates l v l is the ONLY one who’s ever admitted that it’s true that he really could think he’s saved but not be.

Huge admission.

However, it’s not the paradigm of the OSAS advocate.

This is a novelty, as you correctly point out, to say that OSAS teaches that God knows who’s saved but that the Christian doesn’t.

Heck, if that’s truly what OSAS, then no Catholic would disagree with that. Of course all Catholics believe that from God’s perspective He knows who’s saved and who isn’t.

 

[PRmerger]

lol. This has nothing to do with the question I’ve asked lol

This is quite peculiar. My post was #251. Your question was posed in #256.

Not sure how you think I could answer a question you had yet to ask.

:coffeeread:

 

[paul_c]

A more accurate wording for my representation of a TB is:

A TB WILL DO good works. They do these good works as a result of being Saved and receiving a new heart. They do not do them in order to be saved.

This is true of the Catholic teaching as well, although we use different words.
Remember when I explained the Catholic teaching a few days ago:

When a man has sufficient faith in Christ that he want’s to change his life, he gets baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When he does this, God forgives him all previous sins, makes him a member of the Church and gives him the grace to do the good works to which he has been called as a Catholic Christian. (You call it being saved. we call it being in the state of grace) To stay in the state of grace, he must continue to do these works, loving both God and Neighbor. If he falls from grace through mortal sin, he will be condemned unless he reconciles with God through the sacrament of reconciliation. God in his mercy, will allow men to repent and return to him as often as they need to. If you die in the state of grace, you will enter heaven.

If someone professes to be a Believer and does not do good works (i.e. does not show fruit of the Spirit, but rather continual works of the flesh), then they should not be recognized as TBs. It is probable that they have not been Saved and therefore have never been in the faith.

We would say this a little differently. If a person does not do the works he is called to do, he is no longer in the state of grace. Do you remember the parable of the sower (Luke 8: 4-8 with the explanation Luke 8: 11-15)?

The Parable of the Sower. 4* When a large crowd gathered, with people from one town after another journeying to him, he spoke in a parable.* 5“A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path and was trampled, and the birds of the sky ate it up. 6Some seed fell on rocky ground, and when it grew, it withered for lack of moisture. 7Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it. 8And some seed fell on good soil, and when it grew, it produced fruit a hundredfold.” After saying this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”

The Parable of the Sower Explained.* 11 “This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. 12Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. 14As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit. 15But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.

All these people believed at one point but all the the last group fell away…

In my understanding A(good works) is not required to obtain B(faith). A(good works) are a result of B(faith).

We would not disagree with this.

You have the wrong order of things if you are basing off my posts. The order is Grace/Faith/Salvation/Good Works

A - Grace
B - Faith
C - Salvation
D - Good Works

A is required for B-D, B is the result of A and required for C-D, C is the result of A-B and required for D, D is the result of A-C

Well, Faith leads to baptism, which provides the grace to do good works. If you do those good works and stay in the state of grace until you die, then you will go to heaven.

If they never repent and return to a God fearing life then it will be known that this person was never a TB and had been a FB for 30 years. They were never Saved.

While I think in general, you are fairly consistent in your understanding with the Catholic Church, you are a bit limited in your need to stay consistent with the Faith alone and the once saved, alwasy saved heresies… This is a problem for you because you need to define every person as a believer or unbeliever, while the fact is (as the parable of the sower shows), that some people simply change what they think or believe for a whole variety of reasons.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

You do know that he’s talking about people leaving the Church, right?

TBs do sin, but they will be repentant of this sin and return to right standing with the Lord. However, in their fall to sin, they never lose faith or Salvation. If a person “falls away from the faith” as in, no longer believes Christ is Lord, then they never had true faith and never had been Saved. They were FBs.

Or more simply, they fell from grace.

 

[Philthy]

Wow.

Yawn

Once again the assurance is from God’s perspective.

And yet it is spoken from your mouth as if it were your perspective.

Once He Saves (i.e. gives someone faith to believe), the person is always Saved, they have received Salvation through Christ.

If this were true, then there would be no verses of Scripture warning “saved” people about not inheriting the KofG, but there are plenty.
If this were true there would be no verse which says saved believers can be “separated from Christ” and “fallen from grace”, but there is such a verse.

He will never let them fall from Salvation. From this point on they will never lose faith in Jesus as their Savior, they will persevere in the faith until death.

If this were true then there would be no verses about staying awake and about persevering in faith, persevering in hope and persevering in love; but in fact most of the NT is devoted exactly to these things.

The person will still sin, but they will never be able to sin themselves out of Christ’s hands.

If this were true, then there would be no verses which speak of certain sins as separating saved believers from the KofG, but there are plenty.
Furthermore, if you actually believed what you wrote above, you would readily admit that:
IF a person DOES commit certain sins (ie those listed as separating them from inheriting the KofG) THEN they MUST NOT BE SAVED; since they have demonstrated the ability to “sin themselves out of Christ’s hands.”, which, according to you a saved believer cannot do. But are you prepared to admit that the commission of a particular sin (say, adultery or murder) indicates that someone is not a “true believer”? No, you are not prepared to admit that and such failure on your part indicates either hypocrisy, ignorance or confusion.

Even though the person does not have total assurance, it doesn’t matter. The person is supposed to work out his/her Salvation in fear and trembling.

Why, exactly, would there be a need to work it out at all and to do so in fear and trembling???

The assurance is in the hands of the Lord.

Well that’s the rub: it IS in the hands of the Lord and it has not been revealed, but you claim it for yourself while simultaneously claiming a “person does not have total assurance”

OSAS does not depend on the assurance of the individual person. The assurance is upheld by a God that will not fail to Save those He chooses to Save.

Basically all you have done is reduced OSAS to this:
IF you are saved you will remain so and there is nothing you can do to change that.
If you are not saved you will remain so and there is nothing you can do to change that.
And you wonder why people reject your gospel!

… if God has Saved me, then I have a True Faith in Christ and it is a faith that I will continue in until death. If the Lord has yet to Save me, then I have a false faith and if the Lord never Saves me then I will fall “out of the faith” (quotes bc I was never really in the faith), or continue in my false delusion till death where I will learn that I never had true faith in Christ and realize that I was following the lusts of my own flesh and not the fruits of the Spirit.

Now that, my friend, is a gospel that most sane people will rightly reject. It is not only useless (ie true faith is indistinguishable from false faith) but there is nothing that can be done by the person to alter their state of being. What good is it? What is one to do with the information?

And thus you have yet to understand where the assurance lies.

Nice deflection! The failure to understand is somehow her fault?! There is no understanding where the “assurance lies”, because there is no assurance - only confusion, self delusion and the possibility that one cannot know whether they are among the saved and that if they are not, then there is nothing they can do to change that state of being. Good luck with that Gospel…

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

It is not only useless (ie true faith is indistinguishable from false faith)

This is a most trenchant point.

How true that, if OSAS is as l v l proposes, it is the most inutile of doctrines. TB are essentially indistinguishable from FB. Now, what good does that do anyone?

OSAS, as l v l argues, is in the eyes of God. Okay. But as no one here sees with the eyes of God (except, of course, the Catholic Church) then no one can claim to be assured of his salvation.

 

[Philthy]

This is true of the Catholic teaching as well, although we use different words.
Remember when I explained the Catholic teaching a few days ago:

When a man, by grace, has sufficient faith in Christ that he want’s to change his life, he out of obedience to God’s Will gets baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When he does this, God forgives him all previous sins, makes him a member of the Church and gives him the grace to do the good works to which he has been called to by God as a Catholic Christian. (You call it being saved. we call it being in the state of grace) To stay in the state of grace, he must continue to do these works God calls him to: loving both God and Neighbor. If he falls from grace through mortal sin, he will be condemned unless he reconciles with God; God has made this possible and knowable to us through the Sacrament of reconciliation, and by this Sacrament not only is one reconciled to God, but they are also assured that they are. While God has bound himself to this Sacrament, He is not bound BY it. What does this mean? It means that God is still able to forgive anyone He chooses with or without the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The difference is that, apart from private revelation (relatively rare) one cannot have the assurance that they have been forgiven and that they have been returned to a state of grace. God in his mercy, will allow men to repent and return to him as often as they need to. If you die in the state of grace, you will enter heaven.

I hope my edits in blue are not presumptuous Paul. It is important, I think, to not unintentionally place limits on God’s mercy. God is free to forgive whomever he wishes whenever he wishes. The primary advantage of the Sacrament is that it is “a visible sign of the invisible reality of God’s grace.”

Keep up the good work! You have much more patience than I do…

blessings!

 

[paul_c]

I hope my edits in blue are not presumptuous Paul. It is important, I think, to not unintentionally place limits on God’s mercy. God is free to forgive whomever he wishes whenever he wishes. The primary advantage of the Sacrament is that it is “a visible sign of the invisible reality of God’s grace.”

Keep up the good work! You have much more patience than I do…

blessings!

Philthy,
I have no problem with your expansion of my more simplified explanation of Catholic sotierology. I appreciate your point that the priests absolves you of your sins. Perhaps it would be helpful to share the prayer of absolution the priest says when he forgives your sins:

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and resurrection of His Son
(2 Cor. 5:19; cf. Rom. 11:15; Col.1:20)has reconciled the world to Himself
(John 20:21-23)and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins;
(2 Cor. 5:18-20)through the ministry of the Church
(Luke 7:50; Col. 1:14)may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, +
and of the Holy Spirit.

So, Indeed, when you leave the confessional, you know you are back in the state of grace. This is the assurance that our separated brethren crave and claim on the basis of faith alone. Unfortunately, they don’t have the scriptural (as shown above) or Traditional support for their claims, unlike the Catholic Church.’ And they also fail to recognize that man always has a choice to accept or reject God right up until they die. So we know that we must continue to stay in the state of grace and if we fall from grace, we must return to the sacrament to be reconciled.

And yes, the Church teaches that God is not bound by his sacraments. But it also teaches that Jesus put them in place for a reason and that to disregard them is to disregard Christ. So lets be careful. Yes, God can save anyone he wishes but it is our duty to teach what the church teaches and that is clearly to partake of the sacraments if you want the grace required to get to heaven. While there may be exceptions, it would be wrong to advise anyone to bank on them.

 

[PRmerger]

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and resurrection of His Son
(2 Cor. 5:19; cf. Rom. 11:15; Col.1:20)has reconciled the world to Himself
(John 20:21-23)and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins;
(2 Cor. 5:18-20)through the ministry of the Church
(Luke 7:50; Col. 1:14)may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, +
and of the Holy Spirit.

:clapping:

It is good to show that that which the priest says during sacramental rites are taken, often, straight from Scripture.

Just like practically everything we and the priest recite at Mass.

See this website (although most likely not updated with the new translation).

Scripture in the Mass.

Excerpt:

Penitential Rite

All: I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25)
Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)
People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)
All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.