M
moondweller
Guest
Divine revelation and a new covenant based on promise. God cannot lie.
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M
moondweller
Guest
In the Matthew 25 passage its His “sheep” that did the work. But the passage does not say that it was the work that made them sheep. Notice in the Matthew 7 passage that none of their works about which they boasted counted. The will of the Father is to believe in the Son. As for the Matthew 19 passage, the young man wanted to know what “good thing” he should do to obtain eternal life. That’s self-delusion. Even when he said, “All these things I have kept.” But then Jesus exposed his true love and in what (not Who) he placed his faith - his money and possessions. Here too, all the works he claimed to have done counted for nothing without faith. In the end, did the young man sell his possessions and follow Jesus?
You seem to want to be saved by works. Have you sold all your possessions? Are you using a borrowed computer to post messages? Learn from them. Works can’t save you.
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ralphinal
Guest
I can see your point on Matt 19.
Matt 7, the preceding verse talks about being judged by your fruits. False prophets will produce bad, true will produce good. Then, you get that claiming Christ is Lord is not enought. If you beleive you will do (bare good fruit).
You say that in Matt 25, the sheep are his faithful and the goats are not. The verse does not say that. No where does it say that the sheep beleived and the goats did not. You are reading something in that is not there. It does say that the sheep were rewarded for what they did and the goats were punished for what they had the chance to do and did not do it.
Somehow, I missed one of my favorites. Matt 5:14-16. “Let your light shine before men that they may see the GOOD WORKS that you do and give glory to God.”
Read this Baptist link, please
baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=6878
It is getting close to the point.
Catholics do not beleive that it is about how many works we do. It is about what we do when we have the chance. Matt 25, they asked when they say Jesus in need. He told them when they saw the least of His people, they saw him. Remember to he that much is given, much is expected. When the chance comes, do we help or walk faster? Do we talk about how sad those poor people are or do we help? Works show the world that you are a Christian and it proves that you are living your faith. Faith without works is dead faith. PERIOD. Christ teaches us not a philosophy but a way of life. Think about the balance of it. Sin can send you to hell but nothing you do can help? Wrong. You have to chose to act upon the Grace given to you by God that grants you faith to beleive. If you then have that faith, you will show it to the world. If you do not show the faith, your faith is dead. There is no cosmic tally sheet about how much you’ve done to see if you qualify. There is not a GPA qualification coupled with an ACT score. But, your faith must be born out as a light to the world, that men may see the GOOD WORKS that you do and give glory to God
No, I own my computer, but my stuff does not own me. Do not question if I actually do what I can when I can. I am not here to discuss what I do.
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ErikaA
Guest
Yes but YOU can. And where does that leave you?
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Fisher
Guest
“But BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” -Hebrews 9:12
**"Isn’t believing on Christ a “work.” **
Yes, but it is not a work of self-righteousness… John 6:29 states, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” The only work which can get us to Heaven is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and thus obtaining HIS righteousness… “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2nd Corinthians 5:21).
“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” -2nd Thessalonians 2:9,10
**"Isn’t believing on Christ a “work.” **
Yes, but it is not a work of self-righteousness… John 6:29 states, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” The only work which can get us to Heaven is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and thus obtaining HIS righteousness… “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2nd Corinthians 5:21).
“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” -2nd Thessalonians 2:9,10
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Fisher
Guest
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (Romans 10:9). Salvation is of the heart, NOT the mouth. I’ve actually heard radio preachers teach that a person needs to audibly profess Christ in order to be saved. Would you show me that in the Bible? On the contrary, we read the opposite in Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” We are NOT saved by saying certain magic words or by performing certain religious duties. The Scriptures are clear—we are saved by doing God’s will. These people in Matthew chapter seven were sincere I believe, they were religious no doubt. Let’s hear their testimony in Matthew 7:22, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” They had done so many wonderful things “in Jesus name” but listen to what Jesus told them in Matthew 7:23, “And then will I profess unto them,** I NEVER KNEW YOU**: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Wow! These people had spent their lives prophesying “in Jesus name”, casting out devils “in Jesus name” and doing many wonderful works “in Jesus name.” Now their about to be cast into hell for their disobedience. They failed to do GOD’S WILL. People get the wrong impression that they can earn their way to heaven or merit salvation by their own works—this is a lie of the devil! There is NOTHING we can do to earn heaven, we ALL deserve to burn in hell.
The only way to be saved is by doing GOD’S WILL. What is God’s will? We find the answer in **John 6:40, “And this is the WILL of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” **God’s will is for each and every person to see Jesus as He is portrayed in the Word of God and to believe on Him. Many religions will come to us but they have “another Jesus.” We must believe on Jesus Christ as he is presented by God’s Holy Word, as the true and living God. And then we must simply believe on Jesus Christ the best we know how for salvation and forgiveness of sins.
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ralphinal
Guest
So, if I truely beleive, I have no reason to give alms to the poor? I have no reason to teach the Good News to others? I am not called to be an example? Oh good. That is easier. All I have to do is pray and beleive. Isn’t that what Jesus said? Just have faith and do nothing. He never said to “go out and make beleivers of all men” did he? He never said to do anything to help anyone did he? All you need is faith. Let the hungry feed themselves. Give non-beleivers get a Bible and learn on their own. That is what Jesus said, right.
I am sorry if this sounds like I am frustraited, but I am. This wall between what Catholics teach and what non-Catholics THINK we teach is very difficult to cross. If you have faith, you will get off your behind and DO. Christianity is an action word.
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ErikaA
Guest
For MD and Fisher, I’m currently Protestant but am leaning more Catholic daily. Why? Well, let’s start with salvation .
When I “came to Christ” (yes an improper term but common Protestant lingo) four years ago, I had a wonderful epiphany where I said, “Wow, this guy Jesus is real.” Now what happens? Well, everyone assures me that that profession of faith assures my salvation and because I love God, I’ll naturally want to obey His will. But then years pass and surprisingly, I don’t feel God’s good presence when my brother dies and my mom goes off the deep end. Hmm, I think to myself, I don’t feel a lot of love toward God today; don’t feel a natural desire to obey a bunch of commands just so other people can say, “she’s such a good Christian”. In fact, I don’t really want to bother with Him right now and since everyone told me it’s faith alone that saves, I guess I ought not worry to much about it. And then I ask myself, who is this loving God exactly? “Read the Bible,” my Baptist brother tells me. Okay so I read it and what do I find:
Paul tells me it’s faith alone that saves but then says if we’re saved, we don’t lie, steal, gossip, envy, slander, hate, act selfishly, etc. And then he tells me that some vessels are made to display God’s wrath and others his glory. Okay, I wonder, where’s the love and mercy in that? “Well, you’ve got to take those sorts of things in context.” Gee, sounds like we’re relying on tradition then if you ask me. But okay, I’ll let that go.
Oh and let’s not forget my favorite passage in 1John, “All wrongdoing is sin but not all sin leads to death.” Sounds much like there are different degrees of sin, but my Protestant pastor didn’t jump on board with that. Okay, so what about the Sermon on the Mount I ask? “Jesus tells us we’re all sinners,” I hear. So then I’m not really supposed to heed his commands there because the whole point of the sermon was to demonstrate my fallability while demanding nothing of me? “Uh, well, sort of.”
This is the part that gets interesting. You know what said to all this? Cool. I can do whatever the hell I want and God loves me anyway. I just have to TRY to be good to my neighbor, but it’s no biggie because in the end grace covers all. Now if that isn’t sweet salvation, I don’t know what is. But then I start feeling like something’s not quite right with all this and it occurs to me that if Bonhoeffer is screaming one thing, it’s this: you can’t wear the Christian banner if you’re not sacrificing anything to do so. I didn’t like his book because it made me very uncomfortable.
So I started reading Merton and Augustine and now Aquinas. And alas I’ve come to understand where Protestantism leads. To quote Merton, “I took the dead letter of Scripture to it’s deadest end and it killed me.” There is something very enticing about a faith that requires nothing of you but still offers you paradise on the other side. Then faith is merely hedging your bets. Why not say you believe in case heaven and hell are real? It’s not like I have to do anything other than say i believe.
And for those of you who think that faith with works is human arrogance wanting to earn salvation, read Merton or Mother Theresa or any of the great Saints. These people are far from arrogant. They never once sway from the certainty that their faith is from God and they are merely His instruments. “That I can share in the suffering of our Lord is a divine gift” - that is what they say. Merton feels intense sympathy for those of us worldly creatures who go on with our lives as though God’s a nice conversation topic and a good Sunday morning distraction. He feels sorrow that we deny ourselves the “banquet”. And that is what you do when you take faith apart from action, when you gut the term of all its meaning.
You can throw a thousand verses at me and I’ll throw a thousand back that undermine the very premise you’re trying to advance. In the end, if faith has nothing to do with works, you better never tell what I should or shouldn’t do to love God. Because you just told me it’s faith alone. And that’s the hypocrisy that drove me crazy. Okay, still does.
When I “came to Christ” (yes an improper term but common Protestant lingo) four years ago, I had a wonderful epiphany where I said, “Wow, this guy Jesus is real.” Now what happens? Well, everyone assures me that that profession of faith assures my salvation and because I love God, I’ll naturally want to obey His will. But then years pass and surprisingly, I don’t feel God’s good presence when my brother dies and my mom goes off the deep end. Hmm, I think to myself, I don’t feel a lot of love toward God today; don’t feel a natural desire to obey a bunch of commands just so other people can say, “she’s such a good Christian”. In fact, I don’t really want to bother with Him right now and since everyone told me it’s faith alone that saves, I guess I ought not worry to much about it. And then I ask myself, who is this loving God exactly? “Read the Bible,” my Baptist brother tells me. Okay so I read it and what do I find:
Paul tells me it’s faith alone that saves but then says if we’re saved, we don’t lie, steal, gossip, envy, slander, hate, act selfishly, etc. And then he tells me that some vessels are made to display God’s wrath and others his glory. Okay, I wonder, where’s the love and mercy in that? “Well, you’ve got to take those sorts of things in context.” Gee, sounds like we’re relying on tradition then if you ask me. But okay, I’ll let that go.
Oh and let’s not forget my favorite passage in 1John, “All wrongdoing is sin but not all sin leads to death.” Sounds much like there are different degrees of sin, but my Protestant pastor didn’t jump on board with that. Okay, so what about the Sermon on the Mount I ask? “Jesus tells us we’re all sinners,” I hear. So then I’m not really supposed to heed his commands there because the whole point of the sermon was to demonstrate my fallability while demanding nothing of me? “Uh, well, sort of.”
This is the part that gets interesting. You know what said to all this? Cool. I can do whatever the hell I want and God loves me anyway. I just have to TRY to be good to my neighbor, but it’s no biggie because in the end grace covers all. Now if that isn’t sweet salvation, I don’t know what is. But then I start feeling like something’s not quite right with all this and it occurs to me that if Bonhoeffer is screaming one thing, it’s this: you can’t wear the Christian banner if you’re not sacrificing anything to do so. I didn’t like his book because it made me very uncomfortable.
So I started reading Merton and Augustine and now Aquinas. And alas I’ve come to understand where Protestantism leads. To quote Merton, “I took the dead letter of Scripture to it’s deadest end and it killed me.” There is something very enticing about a faith that requires nothing of you but still offers you paradise on the other side. Then faith is merely hedging your bets. Why not say you believe in case heaven and hell are real? It’s not like I have to do anything other than say i believe.
And for those of you who think that faith with works is human arrogance wanting to earn salvation, read Merton or Mother Theresa or any of the great Saints. These people are far from arrogant. They never once sway from the certainty that their faith is from God and they are merely His instruments. “That I can share in the suffering of our Lord is a divine gift” - that is what they say. Merton feels intense sympathy for those of us worldly creatures who go on with our lives as though God’s a nice conversation topic and a good Sunday morning distraction. He feels sorrow that we deny ourselves the “banquet”. And that is what you do when you take faith apart from action, when you gut the term of all its meaning.
You can throw a thousand verses at me and I’ll throw a thousand back that undermine the very premise you’re trying to advance. In the end, if faith has nothing to do with works, you better never tell what I should or shouldn’t do to love God. Because you just told me it’s faith alone. And that’s the hypocrisy that drove me crazy. Okay, still does.
F
Fisher
Guest
I am sorry if this sounds like I am frustraited, but I am. This wall between what Catholics teach and what non-Catholics THINK we teach is very difficult to cross. If you have faith, you will get off your behind and DO. Christianity is an action word.
The Holy Spirt does the work. I need God. God dont need me.
Works follow salvation.
Matthew 7:13-23
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16** Ye shall know them by their fruits**. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The Holy Spirt does the work. I need God. God dont need me.
Works follow salvation.
Matthew 7:13-23
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16** Ye shall know them by their fruits**. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Grace leads to faith which leads to salvation which leads to works…if you do nothing, are you still saved?
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Fisher
Guest
Dont go off the deep end ! If you think going from one denomnation to another will save you. you are highly mistaking
Trust me just because you are a Cathloic, Baptist, Luthren, ect I can tell you a fact that will not save you.
I am the LORD: THAT IS MY NAME: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images” (Isaiah 42:8).
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no SAVIOUR” (Isaiah 43:11). Jesus is the Saviour of the world. “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR, WHICH IS CHRIST THE LORD” (Luke 2:11).
I does not make a difrence what good work you do, or how much, there is only one way to heaven . “Jesus saith unto him,** I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE:** no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the** strait Gate** for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” -Luke 13:23-24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by THE DOOR into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber” (John 10:1).
John 10:9 says, “I AM THE DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”
Trust me just because you are a Cathloic, Baptist, Luthren, ect I can tell you a fact that will not save you.
I am the LORD: THAT IS MY NAME: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images” (Isaiah 42:8).
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no SAVIOUR” (Isaiah 43:11). Jesus is the Saviour of the world. “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR, WHICH IS CHRIST THE LORD” (Luke 2:11).
I does not make a difrence what good work you do, or how much, there is only one way to heaven . “Jesus saith unto him,** I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE:** no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the** strait Gate** for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” -Luke 13:23-24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by THE DOOR into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber” (John 10:1).
John 10:9 says, “I AM THE DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”
F
Fisher
Guest
Only God knows your heart. 1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
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ralphinal
Guest
That, my dear Brother in Christ, was a good dodge. True, only God knows our heart. Even we can delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing fine, when we are not. We can rationalize and avoid, but only God knows for sure.
Again, I point to Matthew 25. Sheep to heaven for doing, goats to hell for not. We are saved by grace. Grace leads us to faith. Faith without works is dead. Jesus told us to go out and make beleivers of all men. He said that we should let our light shine before all that they may see the good works that we do and give glory to God. True, works of the law are meaningless and works without faith are as well. But faith without works is worthless as well.
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grandfather
Guest
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SyCarl
Guest
I think it can be a very subtle distinction. Faith without works is not worthless in itself as if there is no opportunity to do works. as in a deathbed conversion, the faith will save.
Where it becomes subtle is that while faith without works is dead, the works themselves don’t merit anything. Without works faith can be worthless, but the works done in faith are worthless in themselves.
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SyCarl
Guest
If we aknowledge that true faith will result in works and that we should be doing good works, does it really matter if we understand the exact why and wherefore of everything? As humans we may want to know, but does it change anything as long as we believe and obey?
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ralphinal
Guest
I’ll use one post to discuss both of yours. I agree about the suble distincitons. Yes, the deathbed conversion would need no works ot porve the faith.
I totally agree with this point. The danger with Sola Fide, as I have seen with my own eyes, is when we stop doing the work of Christians because we say it is not needed. If we have true faith, we will do the work Christ calls us to do. All too often we see people who seem to beleive but they do very little. That is sola fide in action. It may not be what they actually mean by it, but that is how man can misapply it.
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grandfather
Guest
What matters is Christian unity. We are divided. A house divided will fall. Christian civilization is falling, because Christians are divided. It is coming apart by the seams. The reason we are divided is doctrinal disagreement. How we know truth is misunderstood. Believing false doctrine is like having a glitch in a computer program. It runs until it hits the glitch then it crashes. Christian civilization is crashed. We kill our babies and can’t figure out that men marry women. Truth is important so we do not crash. Only by God’s grace can we be reunited. Desiring unity I engage in this type of dialogue, but get nowhere. It seems useless. There is no logic that works. It is time to do something else. God bless you all.
M
moondweller
Guest
I’m not the One making the promise, Erika. God is. Again, God cannot lie. Nor is my salvation based on me. I have no faith in either my works or my character. My faith rests outside myself.
Based on my faith in His promise? Saved: Sins forever forgiven; reconciled to God; justified in His sight; redeemed by His blood for His own possession; a new creation, no longer in Adam but not in Christ (the Last Adam); with a citizenship in heaven from where I wait for my Savior who will transform the humble state of my yet unredeemed body into conformity with the body of His glory.
I would say my faith in His promise leaves me in a very, very good position, indeed. And ALL because of sovereign GRACE.
M
moondweller
Guest
No one is saying faith does nothing. What God offers in the gospel message is a salvation that requires nothing but that you believe in what His Son has accomplished for you:“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…”"For many such faith is difficult because to them such uncomplicated grace is repulsive and they stumble over the simplicity of it. Why? Because such faith must first of all dismiss all ego and embrace one’s hopeless, helpless estate of (according to God) being “under sin” (Rom. 3:9) and in dire need of a righteousness foreign to himself (not inherently his) - divine righteousness (Rom. 3:22-24).
No problem with “faith with works.” The saved are to “walk by faith” (which would produce works). Arrogance is the notion that salvation itself is ever based on those works. Mother Theresa struggled even with the very existence of God.
Sure, you can throw back verses, but contrary to what you think, you’ll never undermine the “testimony that God has borne concerning His Son.” You may receive the testimony of men but the testimony of God is greater.John 5:9-13 “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
Again, never said faith has nothing to do with works. Our works just have nothing to do with our salvation.
To put it simply, faith certainly can produce works, but contrary to popular opinion and in conformity to the testimony of God, works cannot produce salvation - faith is involved in both, but works is not.
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