Grappling with Justification and James 2 (1 of 2)

[Erick_Ybarra]

Now what is faith? It involves repentance, a turning to God and believing in him and his promise of salvation.

It would butcher the argument to add that Abraham was justified by faith plus works of righteousness. For that would argue against the principle that Paul is arguing. Mankind are disabled from being justified by works ( its assumed that Jews believe in God) because if the enslaving power of sin in adamic humanity. Justification occurs through baptismal regeneration where our sins are blotted out in Christ’s blood.

 

[Melchior_1]

***“The just shall live by faith,” ***Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17.

Live by faith, but Paul did not specifically say anything about works being non-essential, did he?

"…we see then that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." (Rom 3:28).

Sorry, but by works of law will no flesh be justified… (Rom 3:20).

The law, as in the Jewish law, such as being kosher. I think we can all agree that we are saved through faith and by works of the Divine Law, yes? This is like how people use the “all scripture is profitable” passage and try to pass it off as a basis for Sola Scriptura, when Paul is actually referring to the Scripture of Timothy’s youth (New Testament wasn’t full written yet) and no explicit or implicit message about Scripture being the sole rule of faith. We see that too in the passage you mentioned; no explicit or implicit message about works non-essential to salvation.

Whereas James is very clear on this matter.

 

[Melchior_1]

Actually, the distinction Luther held is a scriptural distinction, first and foremost.

That’s the reason I hold the distinction; namely, not because Luther held it, but because scripture states it.

Works follow saving faith, and they validate God’s justification of the one He justified by faith (Jas 2:23).

You sort of missed the verse before and after the one you provided:

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

And:

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[Koineman]

James says that works precede justification. How can we harmonize this with Paul’s teaching that we are justified by faith apart from works of law? Pitting James against Paul–or vice versa–disregards the organic whole that God’s word is, i.e., that His word cannot be divided and pitted against itself.

 

[JonNC]

=Melchior_;9798956]Which means that you need works to be saved, because you can’t have that faith being alone. You need something with it. Which means, again that saving faith isn’t alone at all. You need works in order to live that faith, which works is needed. One may even say that they are…essential.

You’re rigtht that saving faith cannot alone, but it is grace alone through faith that justifies. Works are necessary, but they are not what saves. Works are necessary because they are Christ’s commands. And failure to do His commands (sin!) leads to loss of faith.

I’m glad Luther retained that important Catholic distinction, and makes it more surprising that the sons and daughters of the reformers deviated from that so readily.

Well, Lutherans haven’t. I’ll let others speak for themselves.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

I was Justified by Jesus Christ the Risen Lord

Am I saved by the works of the “Law” (Torah)? --no.

Did I “earn” initial justification by my works? --no.

As Paul states in Romans: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

And in his letter to the Galations: yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

Was my justification --a free gift of God by grace? --yes

As Paul puts in his letter to the Ephesians:
*
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast.*

Am I to walk in love and do good works? -yes most certainly.

As Paul noted:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” (Gal 5:6)

( RSV ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp )

 

[Melchior_1]

You’re rigtht that saving faith cannot alone, but it is grace alone through faith that justifies. ** Works are necessary**, but they are not what saves. Works are necessary because they are Christ’s commands. And failure to do His commands (sin!) leads to loss of faith.

You just said three times that you can’t do it with faith alone, and that works are necessary.

Faith alone means I don’t need to do a single thing, I just need faith, and the grace provided by said faith. I do not need to do anything. As soon as you add conditions to this, it is no longer “faith alone”, it’s “faith and XYZ”.

Unless faith alone means “faith alone and a bunch of other stuff but don’t worry because all you need is faith…and other things! But only faith. And other items”.

Of course, a few Lutherans agree with the Catholic Church on this matter.

 

[Bookcat]

I was Justified by Jesus Christ the Risen Lord

Am I saved by the works of the “Law” (Torah)? --no.

Did I “earn” initial justification by my works? --no.

As Paul states in Romans: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

And in his letter to the Galations: yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

Was my justification --a free gift of God by grace? --yes

As Paul puts in his letter to the Ephesians:
*
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast.*

Am I to walk in love and do good works? -yes most certainly.

As Paul noted:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” (Gal 5:6)

( RSV ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp )

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You just said three times that you can’t do it with faith alone, and that works are necessary.

Faith alone means I don’t need to do a single thing, I just need faith, and the grace provided by said faith. I do not need to do anything. As soon as you add conditions to this, it is no longer “faith alone”, it’s “faith and XYZ”.

Unless faith alone means “faith alone and a bunch of other stuff but don’t worry because all you need is faith…and other things! But only faith. And other items”.

Of course, a few Lutherans agree with the Catholic Church on this matter.

To be justified in Paul is an initiating grace, it is entrance into the state of salvation where sins are forgiven. But we also know that if our lives did not live in obedience to christ building our lives off the rock of his commands, then we are lost in the end.

 

[Melchior_1]

To be justified in Paul is an initiating grace, it is entrance into the state of salvation where sins are forgiven. But we also know that if our lives did not live in obedience to christ building our lives off the rock of his commands, then we are lost in the end.

So there is something else, in addition to faith. And living in obedience and following his commands include doing good works, just like obedience to Paul would be to follow the traditions that have been passed down.

There truly seems to be a lot of conditions and asterisks for something that is supposed to be “alone”. I always thought alone meant solitary, singular.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Paul teaches that we are justified, which means to enter salvation, peace with God, the forgiveness of sin, reconciliation by faith through the sacrifice of Jesus. However works following this are the requirement also for entering into life. So justification is by faith because it is Christs death, not our work which give us salvation. However, the works done in faith are nessesary to make one justified before the final judgememt

 

[kempo1]

ST. PAUL was speaking of works of the law, the old mosaic law. The works under the new covenant through Christ Jesus are the works he performed everyday. Feedind the hungry, caring for the sick, helping the poor and the less fortunate, counseling the lost and forgotten, and showing and sharing love. He gave us the example to follow and people try to NOT see it in scripture. I just dont understand this type of thinking. Forget for a moment what you see in St. James or St. Pauls writings and look at Christ for the example of works and try to discredit that.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Works of the mosaic law include the 10 commandments - see Romans 2 & 7

 

[Melchior_1]

Paul teaches that we are justified, which means to enter salvation, peace with God, the forgiveness of sin, reconciliation by faith through the sacrifice of Jesus.** However works following this are the requirement also for entering into life**. So justification is by faith because it is Christs death, not our work which give us salvation. However, the works done in faith are nessesary to make one justified before the final judgememt

You did it again, You added works as a condition of having “saving faith”, meaning that works are necessary for “saving faith” which means works are necessary for Salvation.

You say the words alone and then proceed to add works as being necessary. I do not think those words what you think they man.

It’s like this:

A = B
B = C
C would then equal A.

A (Salvation) = B (Faith alone, justified through grace).

B (Faith alone, justified through grace) = C (**Works **manifested through the faith, in order for the faith to be “real” “saving Faith”).
C = C (Works)

C (Works) = A (Salvation)

 

[fhansen]

ST. PAUL was speaking of works of the law, the old mosaic law. The works under the new covenant through Christ Jesus are the works he performed everyday. Feedind the hungry, caring for the sick, helping the poor and the less fortunate, counseling the lost and forgotten, and showing and sharing love. He gave us the example to follow and people try to NOT see it in scripture. I just dont understand this type of thinking. Forget for a moment what you see in St. James or St. Pauls writings and look at Christ for the example of works and try to discredit that.

Good way to look at it.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You did it again, You added works as a condition of having “saving faith”, meaning that works are necessary for “saving faith” which means works are necessary for Salvation.

You say the words alone and then proceed to add works as being necessary. I do not think those words what you think they man.

It’s like this:

A = B
B = C
C would then equal A.

A (Salvation) = B (Faith alone, justified through grace).

B (Faith alone, justified through grace) = C (**Works **manifested through the faith, in order for the faith to be “real” “saving Faith”).
C = C (Works)

C (Works) = A (Salvation)

Who is arguing that works are not necessary for salvation? I’ve said this from the beginning.

 

[fhansen]

That’s where it gets sticky. Protestants will agree with this in the sense that without holiness, no one shall see God. So they’ll agree that works are necessary. But I think where they differ is in the question of what works are necessary for. Why are they necessary? Are they necessary only because without them faith is dead–in the same sense that cheese is necessary for a cheeseburger because without it there would not be a cheeseburger? or are they necessary causatively, i.e., in the sense that they cause salvation somehow?

I think you just can’t separate them. Gal 5:6 also fits in here:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

 

[Melchior_1]

Who is arguing that works are not necessary for salvation? I’ve said this from the beginning.

Sorry, I got my posters confused

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You cannot separate them?

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by His mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit, that having been justified by His grace, we should become heirs of the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:7)

We are justified no by works of righteousness but through the operation of God regenerating work in the recreation performed by the Holy Spirit. This brings us a justified state before God, and it is done through faith and faith alone through baptism where our souls are cleansed and purified.

There is no works that you bring to your baptism that you can show, love, kindness of heart, holiness, righteousness…nothing. Baptism is an event where something is done TO YOU, not where YOU DO something FOR GOD.

We are justified in the dying and rising of Jesus Christ. And works of love are of no mention.

However, ultimate salvation is dependent on whether we have lived according to the Spirit or not. Works are necessary in the end.

 

[Melchior_1]

You cannot separate them?

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by His mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit, that having been justified by His grace, we should become heirs of the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:7)

We are justified no by works of righteousness but through the operation of God regenerating work in the recreation performed by the Holy Spirit. This brings us a justified state before God, and it is done through faith and faith alone through baptism where our souls are cleansed and purified.

There is no works that you bring to your baptism that you can show, love, kindness of heart, holiness, righteousness…nothing. Baptism is an event where something is done TO YOU, not where YOU DO something FOR GOD.

We are justified in the dying and rising of Jesus Christ. And works of love are of no mention.

However, ultimate salvation is dependent on whether we have lived according to the Spirit or not. Works are necessary in the end.

I’m a bit confused here. You’re saying you **can **separate works and faith, but they are co-essential to Salvation (as in, you can’t have one without the other, and you need both not just one)?