Grappling with Justification and James 2 (1 of 2)

[Koineman]

Rahab was saved when she believed. Even James understands that Salvation is by faith…

he says

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

A faith that is without works cannot save anyone. This would imply that faith that does have works can save someone. Therefore, God knows when someones faith is genuine and sincere, this is when the person is saved (they enter into salvation) but then there are works that follow and are necessary to do in order to be saved ultimately.

Yes, but according to James, it isn’t “then there are works that follow” but rather the works precede justification and go hand in hand with faith. What you’re doing is taking the usual Protestant approach, which is to say that James is teaching that works followed justification and therefore that justification was by faith alone. But James says clearly that the works preceded justification because the faith that led to justification had to be perfected by works. This is why the Protestant approach does not do justice to James 2. It separates faith from works before justification, putting works after justification.

So the Protestant formula is: faith → justification → works
James’ formula is: faith + works (working together) → justification

 

[Koineman]

While I wholeheartedly agree with what you say here about looking at things as a whole, I also agree with what kempo said about looking at the Gospel as a primary in how we should proceed…Hard to go wrong by listening to and emulating Christ.

Peace
James

The gospels are no less inspired than the epistles, so sorry, I have to disagree with you. You seem to be engaging in what has been called hyper-red-letterism, elevating the gospels above the rest of Scripture.

 

[Bookcat]

Agree!

What is your definition of being “justified”

Well much could be said.

But basically one can say:

““Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.” (to borrow a quote)

Tis not something that comes from my “good works” or as Paul notes the works of the law either.

One is then “in Christ” to use St. Pauls wonderful phrase.

 

[Koineman]

So what about James? Says the Catholic.

You gotta realize that James is talking an event which involves Abraham already being in a relationship with God, as someone who has already been justified (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:1-4) before. Therefore, if Abraham is “justified” again, this is not an act that removes him from being condemned, guilty, and being sentenced to death.

This is not against Catholic teaching on justification, which says that justification is ongoing and increased throughout a person’s life.

 

[Koineman]

Originally Posted by Koineman

Are you saying that sanctifying grace resides in all people regardless of religion or belief?

I thought sanctifying grace was the grace given to someone at baptism, so do you mean some other kind of grace?

 

[onemangang]

The Spark of grace resides in all. This is God’s gift to us…
Our response to that spark of grace is then the beginnings of belief.
This opens up the “gates” to receive more grace which, if we respond to that grace, leads to more belief and a growing confidence…
The Cycle continues until the combination of “belief” and “confidence” becomes full fledged “faith”…Belief in action in complete confidence.

Does this help?

Peace
James

Thank you. I was addressing EY specifically though.
Robert Sungenis wrote a book on this very topic called “NoT by Faith Alone” IMHO I think it is a must read for Catholics and non-catholics seeking to more fully form their view of justification systematically and biblically.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yeah James does speak of a justification after faith which is by works.

No way around that.

The issue here is how to reconcile this with paul who says we are justified by faith at the momeqnt of conversion without doing any works because of Christs death.

 

[Bookcat]

Surely

Peace
James

Could a person who is seeking truth and goodness – seeking God --but is not yet through no fault of their own a Baptized Christian --could that person in a way known only to God be already in a “state of grace” (still via Jesus who they do not yet know but who knows them)

Yes.

Are all people of all religions in a state of grace --I would hazard to guess that the answer there would be –

No.

 

[Bookcat]

Agree!

What is your definition of being “justified”

Well much could be said.

But basically one can say:

““Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.” (to borrow a quote)

Tis not something that comes from my “good works” or as Paul notes the works of the law either.

One is then “in Christ” to use St. Pauls wonderful phrase.

 

[Bookcat]

Now after one is in Christ - after one has been justified:

Ones “works” do still matter

As Paul puts it in his letter to the Romans:

*For he will render to every man according to his works:

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.*

(RSV ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp)

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Does anyone know of an authoratative commentary on Romans or Galatians?

 

[JRKH]

I thought sanctifying grace was the grace given to someone at baptism, so do you mean some other kind of grace?

Possibly…I tend to not get to specific and technical over definitions and “adjectives” applied to things like “grace”.

We are told that even our ability to accept the Gospel is not from us but from God. If this is so it must because of some grace (blessing) of God. Since this grace, this blessing, this ability must necessarily precede our acceptance of the Gospel, and we know that God wishes all to be saved…It necessarily follows that this grace - this spark - must exist in everyone…
If someone wants to add some adjective to this pre-existing faith - or add an adjective to the faith received after conversion - I guess that is OK…If it helps them and their understanding.

To me it all stems from God’s Love. God Loves us all, whether we believe in Him or not. It is His Love that holds us in existence. His Love - favor - grace - that is the source of all life. The thing that changes in the equation is not God’s Love, but our ability to access, use, display and spread that Love from Him and through us.
God does not change…We do…God’s grace does not change - we do.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Could a person who is seeking truth and goodness – seeking God --but is not yet through no fault of their own a Baptized Christian --could that person in a way known only to God be already in a “state of grace” (still via Jesus who they do not yet know but who knows them)

Yes.

Surely…This is addressed in the Catholic Church Catechism in a quote from the Constitution of the Church, Lumen Gentium.
847…
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Are all people of all religions in a state of grace --I would hazard to guess that the answer there would be –

No.
Correct. Not because the grace is not available but because they do not avail themselves of it.

Peace
James

 

[Koineman]

Yeah James does speak of a justification after faith which is by works.

No way around that.

The issue here is how to reconcile this with paul who says we are justified by faith at the momeqnt of conversion without doing any works because of Christs death.

The answer could be what I alluded to earlier: that works are not the meritorious cause of justification–only Christ’s death is, and so that lines up with Paul. Works, however, might be the instrumental cause of justification (along with faith), and that lines up with James.

I’m not sure of the above, but I’m kind of leaning in that direction.

 

[Bookcat]

Not because the grace is not available but because they do not avail themselves of it.

Peace
James

And cause…we do not do the task given to us…to propose Christ to them…in him is true life.

 

[JRKH]

Does anyone know of an authoratative commentary on Romans or Galatians?

I Love this - especially coming from a “protestant”…no offense intended…
Erick - I know you are a true, serious and honest inquirer.

I thought that in “protestant” theology Romans and Galatians WERE the authoritative commentary…(Sola Scriptura)…on the matters they contain.

Your question here points directly at the argument that Catholics make for the existence of the magisterium of the Catholic Church. The need for authoritative teaching…

In answer to your question I would offer that the authoritative commentary is the Catechism of the Catholic Church…in particular the section on Justification.

Peace
James

 

[Koineman]

Possibly…I tend to not get to specific and technical over definitions and “adjectives” applied to things like “grace”.

The creators of the Catechism and other creeds surely got into exacting detail when it comes to words and definitions, so if they thought it important to do so, we should, too, as I see it. Also, if we rely on only vague definitions our understanding of spiritual matters could become clouded and lead us into error–perhaps dangerous error. I think it’s wrong to play fast and loose with definitions when it comes to matters that are so important.

We are told that even our ability to accept the Gospel is not from us but from God. If this is so it must because of some grace (blessing) of God. Since this grace, this blessing, this ability must necessarily precede our acceptance of the Gospel, and we know that God wishes all to be saved…It necessarily follows that this grace - this spark - must exist in everyone…

I’m not sure your conclusion follows. God does not always carry out His will in all matters. For example, it is surely against His will that anyone sins at all, yet He allows that to happen, contrary to His will. So, to say that God necessarily gives grace to everyone because He wills that all be saved is not a necessary conclusion. It could be that God wills all to be saved but allows–for some reason–for some not to receive that special grace whereby they receive and believe the gospel.

 

[JRKH]

And cause…we do not do the task given to us…to propose Christ to them…in him is true life.

Amen

 

[Bookcat]

Amen

That is when we do not do it…

 

[Bookcat]

God does not always carry out His will in all matters. For example, it is surely against His will that anyone sins at all, yet He allows that to happen, contrary to His will. So, to say that God necessarily gives grace to everyone because He wills that all be saved is not a necessary conclusion. It could be that God wills all to be saved but allows–for some reason–for some not to receive that special grace whereby they receive and believe the gospel.

Does God will the salvation of all? Yes.

But as you infer there are different kinds of willing involved…permissive will etc.

Such can be a rather deep subject and not easily discussed on a limited forum…

One such that Theologians (and Schools of Theology) have been up all night for weeks on end – with lots of coffee going back and forth on the questions involved…

And in some things the Pope has had to step in tell em to keep the noise down