Grappling with Justification and James 2 (1 of 2)

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Sure they are co-essential, just like a body and soul are co-essential for human existence.

The principle of judgement by works shows that our works are essential to our salvation.

However, we are saved by faith, and this means we enter into the state where we have God’s grace, His forgiveness, His peace. One who truly has faith will have good works. According to Jesus, the people who have practiced righteousness are accepted into the Kingdom. In this way, and in this way alone, is one saved both now and forever.

Jesus gave forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery, but then told her that she must not sin again.
 
Sure they are co-essential, just like a body and soul are co-essential for human existence.

The principle of judgement by works shows that our works are essential to our salvation.

However, we are saved by faith, and this means we enter into the state where we have God’s grace, His forgiveness, His peace. One who truly has faith will have good works. According to Jesus, the people who have practiced righteousness are accepted into the Kingdom. In this way, and in this way alone, is one saved both now and forever.

Jesus gave forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery, but then told her that she must not sin again.
I’ve been following this post a little, and was looking to see if you could clarify on what I have bolded in your statement.

When you speak of entering "into the state where we have God’s grace" Do you believe we receive grace after faith, or does grace proceed faith?

Or, do you believe that grace proceeds faith, but that grace is only received or applied through faith?

Perhaps, neither? Just seeking clarification 🙂

Peace and Love in Christ :highprayer:
 
I believe that the grace of God must be at work to open our eyes which are blind. Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind because they cannot open them. When he opens up our eyes, we are saved by repentance and faith through the remission of sins in baptism and the regeneration of the holy Spirit. This puts us into a right-relationship with God as sons and daughters of God. We are in the family now. But the day will reveal who are Christ’s true brothers, and it is those who loved Him by loving human beings to death like He did, which is in genuine deeds. Those who have practiced sin and have not kept the commands of Christ, he will be cast into hell, but those who have been loved and so have loved in deeds the body of Christ and the world of the lost, will be brought into the everlasting kingdom which was prepared beforehand for them to inherit.

Grace is a principle that works from the beginning all the way until the end.

As St. Paul said, “For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and not of works, it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast, for we belong to God and we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:19).

We must realize that there is a place where works play absolute no role. If we cannot find a spot in salvation where it is alone by God’s grace and no works contributing, then we have some research to do. However, this grace always has in mind to bring works into the life of the person who is saved.
 
You did it again, You added works as a condition of having “saving faith”, meaning that works are necessary for “saving faith” which means works are necessary for Salvation.

You say the words alone and then proceed to add works as being necessary. I do not think those words what you think they man.

It’s like this:

A = B
B = C
C would then equal A.

A (Salvation) = B (Faith alone, justified through grace).

B (Faith alone, justified through grace) = C (**Works **manifested through the faith, in order for the faith to be “real” “saving Faith”).
C = C (Works)

C (Works) = A (Salvation)
Melchior,
The thing to remember is that this only becomes a problem if one insists on separating actions from belief. (works from faith) Yet they cannot really be separated…

To use a rather silly example…look at the parachutist…
He might believe that his parachute is properly packed but only in jumping out of the plane (action based on belief) can we say that he has faith that the chute is properly packed…

So - in the form of an equation one might say that…
Belief + Action = Saving Faith

Peace
James
 
You cannot separate them?

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by His mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit, that having been justified by His grace, we should become heirs of the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:7)
Yes, works are not the meritorious cause of salvation. But can they be the instrumental cause?
However, ultimate salvation is dependent on whether we have lived according to the Spirit or not. Works are necessary in the end.
James says that without works faith is incomplete and dead, and since faith is required for justification, works must be also. That means that works must be necessary before justification, not be “necessary in the end.”
 
ST. PAUL was speaking of works of the law, the old mosaic law. The works under the new covenant through Christ Jesus are the works he performed everyday. Feedind the hungry, caring for the sick, helping the poor and the less fortunate, counseling the lost and forgotten, and showing and sharing love. He gave us the example to follow and people try to NOT see it in scripture. I just dont understand this type of thinking. Forget for a moment what you see in St. James or St. Pauls writings and look at Christ for the example of works and try to discredit that.🤷
I don’t think I’ll do that. I prefer to see what God says throughout His word, not single out one portion. That’s why I asked in an earlier post how James 2 could be reconciled with Paul’s teachings on justification. Pitting one verse/passage against another is disrespectful to God’s word because it attempts to split it up and make it go against itself.
 
I’ve been following this post a little, and was looking to see if you could clarify on what I have bolded in your statement.

When you speak of entering "into the state where we have God’s grace" Do you believe we receive grace after faith, or does grace proceed faith?

Or, do you believe that grace proceeds faith, but that grace is only received or applied through faith?

Perhaps, neither? Just seeking clarification 🙂

Peace and Love in Christ :highprayer:
The Spark of grace resides in all. This is God’s gift to us…
Our response to that spark of grace is then the beginnings of belief.
This opens up the “gates” to receive more grace which, if we respond to that grace, leads to more belief and a growing confidence…
The Cycle continues until the combination of “belief” and “confidence” becomes full fledged “faith”…Belief in action in complete confidence.

Does this help?

Peace
James
 
“Now we know what the law says it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world fall guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the Law, not flesh will be justified in God’s sight” (Romans 3:19).

What is St. Paul saying here? He is literally teaching that all human beings are guilty of sin. In 3:9-11, he gives a string of Old Testament verses which basically boil down to this conclusion “There is no one righteous; no not one” (3:11). This includes both Jew and Gentile, one who has the law or one who does not have the law. Whatever else St. Paul has said before, it has been headed toward this conclusion, that human beings are in fact unrighteous and they cannot be justified by the “works of the Law”. I want to settle the issue here on this “works of the law”. This does not mean, as some say, there ceremonial laws that made israel distinct from the nations alone. The “works of the law” definitely include, as St. Paul says in Romans 2, lying, stealing, adultery, and idolatry. Also, in Romans 7, Paul describes his failure to be justified by the law because of failing to truly obey the command “Thou shall not covet” (Rom 7:11-13). Therefore, those who wish to say that this is the ceremonial works such as circumcision, the holy festivals, dietary laws, etc,etc are deeply mistaken and will as a consequence butcher the whole argument that is laid out in Romans 1-5. If, as St. Paul has said, SIN forms the barrier between us and justification by the Law, then it must include moral commands. For if we could be justified by moral commands, only not including ceremonial laws, how could sin be a barrier between us and being righteous? Do you see? It is because all human beings are “under sin” (Rom 3:9) that disables any possibility of being justified by the Law (v20).

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest, although testified by the Law and Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe, for there is no difference, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are being justified as a gift of grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith, in order to demonstrate his righteousness, for in the past, God past over sins which were previously committed, but now to demonstrate his righteousness that he might be Just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom 3:21-26)

After arguing that all human beings are disabled from being justified by the works of the Law, which must include the commands of Romans 2, and that because of this all the world is “guilty” before God, Paul then shows God’s work of saving man from their sin. This “righteousness of God” is not the righteousness that is his own quality that belongs to Himself, rather it is the righteousness which is from Him to man, as the later context shows when St. Paul speaks of a “righteousness” being imputed to David. This righteousness is received through faith, without the works of the Law. And the result of receiving this righteousness is that one is “justified” by His grace through the act of redemption in Christ Jesus. Does the word “justified” mean that God is coming inside the human being and internally changing the habits of the heart in order that it ceases to be evil in practice and then begins to perform good works by which then God can appropriately call the person righteous? Absolutely not, the word “justified” never means this in the entire bible. For instance, read 1 Corinthians 4:1-4:

4 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required [a]of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be judged by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this justified; but the one who** judges*** me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on [c]***passing judgment **before [d]the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

Do you see that to be “justified” is the final conclusion from a judgement or an examination. Paul is saying that he is not “justified” by his own knowledge of nothing wrong with him. This obviously carries the forensic meaning of being acquitted or found free from any faults. He even adds the word “human court” which shows the atmosphere of judgement. The context is judgement, either from man or God, and it is something that is done after an examination of the person is complete. A judgement is given after a person has been examined, and once thoroughly examined, and found to have no faults, the person is THEN justified. St. Paul doesn’t mean here that he is not “justified” (the act of actually being made righteous by his deeds from that point onward) in the sense of being changed in his own person, but rather that he is not acquitted yet or found to be righteous.
 
Another verse which teaches clearly this forensic meaning of “justified” is Romans 2 where St. Paul says:
*
2 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Do you see that this justification does not take place in the present time, but it is later at the end of time. Therefore, to be “justified” in this eschatological sense, does not mean that at the point, at the end of the world, God is going to change the inner man and transform them into something which is not evil but actually righteous, practically, from that point onward. Do you see how ridiculous it would be to think that evil sinners can be “justified” at the Last day because “justified” means that God is taking what is evil in the person and changing their behavior so that they become righteous??? It cannot mean that. We must reject that definition. Therefore, to be “justified” in the last Judgement is to be FOUND righteous, or JUDGED righteous, or DECLARED righteous, AFTER God examines the PRIOR life of the individual. It is a VERDICT AFTER God sees how the person lived in their life on earth.

Well, if we can understand that to be “justified” is

the verdict of God that he passes on righteous man and women, then we should maintain the meaning in Romans 3:24, “and are being Justified by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood”. However, St. Paul is saying that we are “justified” NOW!!! That we can actually be “justified” now is clear from the past tense of the word and the present tense context.

So what is St. Paul saying here? St. Paul is teaching that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ performs a “propitiation” (wrath removal) which in turn performs a “redemption” (liberation to freedom) which then forms the means through which we are “justified” (the verdict of being free from faults). Why is it by Grace? Because it is the cross which accomplishes our justification. St. Paul said in Gal 2:20 “If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain”.

“Where is boasting? It is excluded. By what principle? by works? No, but by faith. Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the Law” (Rom 3:28)

Because our justification is found only in the Cross of Christ, we cannot boast in our good works for being justified. Faith, then, removes any possibility of boasting. If we add a work of our own to this justification, then we allow boasting. Why do I say this? Because St. Paul says “For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to boast about” (Rom 4:1-2). Do you see? If we have a justification by faith and works, then we have something to boast about. I really do not know how much more clear St. Paul can be. Therefore, we are force by the argument to conclude that to be “justified” by “faith alone” is a legitimate statement.

So what does this mean? That all someone has to do is ask Jesus in their heart and then we can do anything we want for the rest of our lives and still go to heaven? Absolutely not!

At this point it will be helpful to say that what St. Paul says here concerning “justification” is not to be synonomous with “FULL SALVATION”.

St. Paul says “If you live according to the flesh you will die” (Rom 8:10-14), but “if you by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you will live”.

Eternal life is still conditional upon our working out our salvation with the Holy Spirit in the practice of righteousness.*
 
Yes, works are not the meritorious cause of salvation. But can they be the instrumental cause?
I believe they can because I believe that one who is in doubt - is troubled in some way - can have their belief confirmed and strengthened by works…thus restoring their faith to life.
James says that without works faith is incomplete and dead, and since faith is required for justification, works must be also. That means that works must be necessary before justification, not be “necessary in the end.”
I agree with this in “normative” circumstances (99.9% of cases).
There are however the exceptions which need to be accounted for. In many discussions on this topic some variation of the non-norm case of the “deathbed conversion” will come up. Such a person “has no works”…Are they saved?..becomes the question. And the answer is of course they are for if they had lived the works of faith would surely have followed.

Peace
James
 
So what about James? Says the Catholic.

You gotta realize that James is talking an event which involves Abraham already being in a relationship with God, as someone who has already been justified (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:1-4) before. Therefore, if Abraham is “justified” again, this is not an act that removes him from being condemned, guilty, and being sentenced to death.

Do you see that St. Paul understands justification in terms of taking someone and removing him from the guilt of sin (Rom 5:1-11).

Therefore, we cannot push the same meaning that Paul uses in Romans 3-5, because there justification is accomplished by the sacrifice of Jesus which removes the guilt of our sin. Justification at the offering of Isaac is not an event where Abraham’s guilt is being taken away. He’s already been in a right-relationship with God.

Therefore, this justification at the offering of Isaac is “passing” the test of Abraham’s faith, WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN ACTIVE FOR YEARS.

It is not an act where God is taking a lost Abraham and making him “saved”!

However, if Abraham failed to obey God in this, he would have been condemned. Therefore, the realness of the test is there and whether or not he passes determines his destiny, for sure. Just like in Romans, if we live according to the flesh we will go to hell, but if we practice righteousness, we will make it to heaven.
 
So what about James? Says the Catholic.

You gotta realize that James is talking an event which involves Abraham already being in a relationship with God, as someone who has already been justified (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:1-4) before. Therefore, if Abraham is “justified” again, this is not an act that removes him from being condemned, guilty, and being sentenced to death.

Do you see that St. Paul understands justification in terms of taking someone and removing him from the guilt of sin (Rom 5:1-11).

Therefore, we cannot push the same meaning that Paul uses in Romans 3-5, because there justification is accomplished by the sacrifice of Jesus which removes the guilt of our sin. Justification at the offering of Isaac is not an event where Abraham’s guilt is being taken away. He’s already been in a right-relationship with God.

Therefore, this justification at the offering of Isaac is “passing” the test of Abraham’s faith, WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN ACTIVE FOR YEARS.

It is not an act where God is taking a lost Abraham and making him “saved”!

However, if Abraham failed to obey God in this, he would have been condemned. Therefore, the realness of the test is there and whether or not he passes determines his destiny, for sure. Just like in Romans, if we live according to the flesh we will go to hell, but if we practice righteousness, we will make it to heaven.
Then what do you make of Rahab? For all we know, when James says she was justified by works, that was her moment of salvation.
 
…Forget for a moment what you see in St. James or St. Pauls writings and look at Christ for the example of works and try to discredit that.
👍👍

While I wholeheartedly agree with what you say here about looking at things as a whole, I also agree with what kempo said about looking at the Gospel as a primary in how we should proceed…Hard to go wrong by listening to and emulating Christ.

Peace
James
 
When Rahab was justified, this was not the act of her believing.

Her hiding the spies was a work, according to james, which came from faith. This work justified her in the same sense that Abraham was justified by works. This was the deed that had to be done if she really believed in God. Thus at this deed, she was justified.
 
I was saved (Justified) by Jesus Christ the Risen Lord

Am I saved by the works of the “Law” (Torah)? --no.

As Paul states in Romans: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

And in his letter to the Galations: *yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

Did I “earn” initial justification by my works? --no.
*
Was my justification --a free gift of God by grace? --yes

As Paul puts in his letter to the Ephesians:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Am I to walk in love and do good works? -yes most certainly.

As Paul noted:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” (Gal 5:6)

Could I loose the state of grace by some serious sin of commission or omission…and need the restoration of grace through the mercy and blood of Christ? --yes. That too is the case.

( RSV ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp )
 
Rahab was saved when she believed. Even James understands that Salvation is by faith…

he says

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

A faith that is without works cannot save anyone. This would imply that faith that does have works can save someone. Therefore, God knows when someones faith is genuine and sincere, this is when the person is saved (they enter into salvation) but then there are works that follow and are necessary to do in order to be saved ultimately.
 
I was saved (Justified) by Jesus Christ the Risen Lord

Am I saved by the works of the “Law” (Torah)? --no.

As Paul states in Romans: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

And in his letter to the Galations: *yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

Did I “earn” initial justification by my works? --no.
*
Was my justification --a free gift of God by grace? --yes

As Paul puts in his letter to the Ephesians:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Am I to walk in love and do good works? -yes most certainly.

As Paul noted:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” (Gal 5:6)

Could I loose the state of grace by some serious sin of commission or omission…and need the restoration of grace through the mercy and blood of Christ? --yes. That too is the case.

( RSV ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp )
Agree!

What is your definition of being “justified”
 
When Rahab was justified, this was not the act of her believing.

Her hiding the spies was a work, according to james, which came from faith. This work justified her in the same sense that Abraham was justified by works. This was the deed that had to be done if she really believed in God. Thus at this deed, she was justified.
I agree. So we can say that works precede justification, since without works faith is dead.
 
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