Greatest Threat to the Church

[ekim61]

I voted protestantism but I think it should be other. The Church itself is the greatest threat because it does not educate it’s members well enough to stand up to the evangelicals.

When a protestants says you’re going to hell because you pray to Mary, or you’re not saved because…, or you worship statues, or you pray to the dead…you get my drift. And then they pull our bible verses to back up there claim, I think the average Catholic does not know how to refute these heresies. And they buy into it and leave the church.

 

[otm]

Bushwhacker:

The greatest threat to the Church is from the modernist heirarchy, including Pope John Paul II. The Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope have done more to harm the Church since Vatican II than secularism or any other ‘outside’ threat ever could.

The modernist movement will ultimately fail, and I base that on the words of Mary at Fatima, that in the end, Her Immaculate Heart will triumph. Also, Jesus promised to be with the Church until the end of time, and that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against Holy Mother Church.

The failure of the heirarchy to take action against a wide range of abuses, and even outright heresies, has scandalized the Church and demoralized Catholics in large numbers. Confusion is allowed to reign, and no effective action to correct the situation has been taken. Vocations will continue to fall until there is a major ‘housecleaning’ and restoration of the moral authority of the Bishops and Cardinals. That is not likely without a return to orthodox Catholic teaching, and it will take a strong Pope to pull it off.

Vocations are not continuing to fall, if you look at the universal Church; it is only when you look at the Church as European (and North American) that you have that impression.

And to call John Paul 2 a modernist is to show the world that you do not know the definition of Modernism. Don’t throw around words that have a specific meaning just because they have a nice ring to them and someone else did the same. Part of that restoration of moral authority you wwish for was started by that Pope you just insulted.

 

[kepha1]

After secularism & moral relativism have emasculated the churches along with the ambient civilization, Islam will have a fertile field in which to plant a religion of strength and discipline. I vote for Islam also, but AFTER secularism and moral relativism.

 MercyGate, you are right on!  My sentiments exactly!

 Check out this quote, its almost 30 years old:

 **"We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think the wide circles of the American society, or wide circles of the Christian community, realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel. This confrontation lies within the plans of divine Providence; it is a trial which the whole Church must take up." **

** **Karol Joseph Wojtyla, 1976 (Pope John Paul II)

 ** And now for a word on dissention, another big problem in the Church, but not as major as the dictator of moral relativism.**

  **FR. NICHOLAS GRUNER, is a suspended priest and a cult leader.  I am from Fort Erie (the name of the town is found on his literature where he operates from) and have first hand knowledge right from Bishop Wimbley in the diocese of St. Catherines. HE IS SUSPENEDED,  and Grunerites have been brainwashed into believing he is not. Anyone can see the immediate division and dissention whenever Grunerites jump in and defend him.  He is able to deceive many with his marketing skills.  He has a degree in marketing from McGil University. Bluntly put, Pope JPII and Sister Lucia, according to Fr. Gruner, are liars, and he is not.

**

Sr. Lucia in her letters explains further the meaning of collegial consecration (which was done) that she received directly from Our Lady of Fatima. It refers to the unity of faith not just with some exclusive mens club of bishops, but with all Catholics in union with our bishops. Fr. Gruner harms Our Lady of Fatima with dissention, the exact opposite of what Our Lady had requested.

 [envoymagazine.com/forum/...p?TOPIC_ID=1015](http://www.envoymagazine.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1015)

 [ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner.htm](http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner.htm)

 [catholicculture.org/docs...cfm?recnum=3441](http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3441)

 These articles are on reputable Catholic web sites that are not modernistic or liberal, contrary to what Grunerites would have you believe.

Peter

 

[RikasAngel]

Hello All,

From my experience, the greatest threat to the Church is the rise of secularist culture. In such a culture, religion is marginalized and treated as a superstitious relic. The Catholic Church is especially hated because of its strong stance on moral issues and “power” structure. The fact that so many Catholics in Europe have become secular/materialist in their views, the Church has been dwindling. We cannot let this happen in America. We need to teach the young the importance and beauty of the Catholic Faith before it is too late.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

my thought is laziness…how easy is it to say you “believe in Christ” and do nothing about it? How easy is it to say you have too much to do to go to church for ONE hour on Sunday, and instead do sports, work, shopping, or just SLEEP?! Being a good Christian, ESPECIALLY a good Catholic, is NOT easy, it’s something that takes effort, time, strength, charity, and deep convictions…people are too lazy to live for Christ anymore. My main two examples of laziness: cafeteria Catholics and P.A.C.E. Catholics (those who only come to mass on Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, Christmas, and Easter…if they’re not too busy)

 

[magdalisa]

jaralenio:

Tanais, I voted other due to what Jesus told us in Matt 10:28 **And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. **Our real threat is Satan and his demons, Jesus makes it very clear who our real threat is. Matt 16:18 **And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. **The Church will prevail but her members are to listen to Jesus’ warnings, John 8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jesus is the Truth the Way and the Life and Satan hates everything about Jesus and us who fallow. Pope Leo XIII had a prophetic vision of the 20th century in which Satan was to do his most damage and so moved from this vision that he composed the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel. Let us continue to pray this prayer for the protection of our souls!

God Bless You

very well said, I agree!

“For our struggle is not with flesh and blood, but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.” EPH 6:12

peace–
magdalisa

 

[Montie_Claunch]

I would think that it would be religous liberalsim, that the idea that all relgions lead to the same thing regardless of how out there (and wrong though one is not sopposed to term it wrong) and that we should not really be concerned about anything. If this would seriously infeltrait into the laity it would be easy to see that if you coud get to the same place regardless you could slowly let things slip (i.e. going to Mass each and every sunday, confessing sins ect.) till one ceases to be Catholic at all (real Catholic, cafetria Catholic or otherwise). I think that would be the most dangerous.

 

[Wormwood]

I believe the modern movements are going to threaten the Church greatly in the next few years. In my generation, we’re losing faithful to atheism because the existence of a God is not physically possible. To them, miracles are too hard to believe in.

Since there is no past, and there is no future, all “isms” are modernisms. The only existant moment is right now. The church was seeded in Rome. The America of it’s day, Rome was the most decadent, excessive, and unchristian place in the world at the time. Yet christianity flourished…so to blame the evil society is a cop out and possibly an admission to feelings of weakness in it’s pressence.

I voted Other - Islam!

There are only two evangelical movements in the modern world that I’m familiar with: Christianity and Islam. Each asserts it’s goal as being world evangelization, and it’s predominance over the other.

This is a poor argument because, someone with a different religion does not take away from your religion. 5-6 years ago people in america didn’t know one thing about Islam, now everyone thinks they’re a muslim specialist. So the fact that they also want to spread their religion is the only thing you know about them, yet they are the biggest threat to your religion. Buddhist also have a world wide goal so be sure to be suspicious of them as well.

 

[miguel_delgado]

all of them!!!

 

[Pace]

Tanais:

What do you think is the greatest threat to our Church in the modern world? I was just curious because I just read an editorial from a priest who says its Secularism. I just wanted to hear other opinions.

Rampant opinionism about taste. We are beyond mere boorishness. Now there is a downright hatred and resentment, within us, of the mystery that lives in true art.

“What have we to do with thee…Have you come to destroy us?”

 

[dcdurel]

Wormwood:

Since there is no past, and there is no future, all “isms” are modernisms. The only existant moment is right now. The church was seeded in Rome. The America of it’s day, Rome was the most decadent, excessive, and unchristian place in the world at the time. Yet christianity flourished…so to blame the evil society is a cop out and possibly an admission to feelings of weakness in it’s pressence.
.

I agree totally.

The Church changed society in the past. We cannot blame the weak Church we have today on society.

From what I have learned, the biggest threat to the Church are those in the Church who refuse to humble themselves and learn from the teachings the Popes have approved.  And I am referring to **orthodox** Catholics, especially bishops who refuse to accept the Church directives on the homily, in which the Church teaches that the homily is the **primary place to catechize** (teach) the whole Catholic faith.  **And this Catechesis, at mass, is to be based on the Catechism.**   Thus, at mass we are supposed to be taught the teachings on the necessity of the sacraments to overcome sin and moral teachings based on the commandments, mortal sin, venial sin, the necessity of confession, the necessity of devotion to Mary,  and the teachings of the Popes that have to do with us.  
I very, very, very, rarely hear teachings on these subjects, because there is no one to clarify these areas.

So what the vast majority of Catholics get at mass during the homily is merely a commentary on scripture verses, in which we learn almost nothing. Thus Catholics remain ignorant of the truth of what God wants us to learn, and the result is they get swayed by public throught, instead of the public being swayed by Catholic thought. IT IS NOT THE PRIESTS FAULT. There has been a false idea spread since Vatican II that the homily can only concerned with the immediate content of the readings. Almost all priests are taught this false idea at the seminary and by Catholic homelitic teachers in the past and today. How do I know? Because I ask them, and they tell me they are supposed to limit their preaching to the content of the readings. They tell me that this is what they have been taught Vatican II says.
It is this false idea that is the biggest threat to the Church. Because of this idea we are not taught the Gospel that the apostles handed down in Sacred Tradition. We are not taught morality, we are not taught the importance of grace, the sources of grace, the importance of obedience, we are not taught the seriousness of sin, especially mortal sin, such as contraception, abortion, drunkeness, sexual immorality, etc.

As the General Directory for Catechesis (approved by the Pope) says:
– with regard to the fundamental direction of catechesis, catechetical activity is still usually impregnated with the idea of ?Revelation’: however, the conciliar concept of ‘Tradition’ is much less influential as an inspiration for catechesis: in much catechesis, indeed,** reference to Sacred Scripture is virtually exclusive** and unaccompanied by sufficient reference to the Church’s long experience and reflection,(56) acquired in the course of her two-thousand-year history. The ecclesial nature of catechesis, in this case, appears less clearly; the inter-relation of Sacred Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium, each according to “its proper mode” (57) does not yet harmoniously enrich a catechetical transmission of the faith;
– Various problems exist with regard to the content of catechesis: there are certain doctrinal lacunae concerning the truth about God and man; about sin and grace and about eschatology; there is a need for a more solid moral formation; presentations of the history of the Church are inadequate"
Obviously Rome thinks the same thing also, and this is when there is any Catechesis at all.

 

[dcdurel]

And what is the source of this horrible idea that priests are not supposed to teach fundamental Catholic Church doctrines at mass, as they have told me and as they believe?

It is the heresy that the Gospel is NOT the Catholic faith.

What do I mean by that?

I mean that then we think of the word Gospel, we think of only of the explicit written teachings of Jesus in the four Gospels.

This idea excludes the teachings of the Church on Mary being our active mother who constantly guides us, on purgatory, on contraception, on mortal and venial sin, on grace, on prayer to the saints, on the moral teachings of the Church, especially sexual morality, on the basics of salvation, on the fundamental hierarchy of truths, the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer, etc. These teachings were not explicitly mentioned by Jesus, though they can be found implicitly in His teachings.
The idea that the Gospel is ONLY the explicit teachings of Jesus in the four Gospels comes from Protestantism and the dissidents within the Church.

Thus, we get a totally warped view of Christianity.
For example, as Catholics all of us are supposed to evangelize, that is spread the Gospel. Ask any priest or bishop what is the content of this Gospel we are supposed to spread. Ask them exactly what is the Gospel that we are supposed to spread. You will not get a straight answer. Because they have not been explicitly taught the truth. This is why Catholics can’t evangelize. They don’t recognize the Gospel, thus can’t evangelize what they don’t recognize. In other words, how can we evangelize to someone who knows nothing about God if we don’t know the fundamental, the very basic teachings of the Gospel. If we think the fundadamental teachings of the Gospel are ONLY what the explicit teachings of Jesus written in the Gospels, we cannot evangelize, because it is impossible to tell people about Jesus and His Gospel by quoting scripture or by explaining the teachings of scripture. How can we evangelize if we believe Church teachings are only secondary, or derived from the true Gospel, the direct word of God?
Then when we read the teachings about the Catechisms, and in the Catechism and all the other teachings coming from Rome we get totally confused, because Rome considers teaching the entire Catholic faith to be the equivalent of teaching the Gospel. Rome considers teaching on contraception, on purgatory, on prayer to the saints, etc. to be teaching the Gospel. Rome considers catechesis, that is, the fundamental teachings of the faith imparted in a systematic way, as in basic catechisms, such as the Baltimore Catechism, to be teaching the Gospel. The Church believes that when people were taught the Baltimore Catechism we were being taught the Gospel. The General Directory for Catechesis, promulgated by the Pope to correct errors in our thinking, says:
**In local catechisms, the Church communicates the Gospel in a manner accessible to the human person so that it may be really perceived as the “Good News” of salvation. **

Notice it does not say the Church communicates a “form” of the Gospel, or a “part” of the Gospel, but “the Gospel”.

Has anyone in their life as a Catholic ever heard anyone in the Church, whether Cardinal, archbishop, bishop, priest, theologian, scripture scholar, anyone, in this country refer to** teaching the Baltimore Catechism as communicating “the Gospel”?**

No. And the reason is that we have a warped view of the Gospel because of the constant saturation of our thinking by protestantism and dissidents who totally reject the correct way of thinking. We can’t even imagine how the Church could be correct on this point. We cannot understand this view of the Church’s teaching until we read the next few paragraphs.

 

[dcdurel]

The correct view of the Gospel is it is the entire content of what the apostles taught and preached, and the Church still teaches today

The apostles were the first ones to receive the entire Gospel. That is, they were constantly taught by Jesus for 3 years. Only parts of these teachings were written in the Gospels. Then they were taught by Jesus after He died, but before His resurrection. In Acts, it says Jesus taught them about the kingdom. None of this is written explicitly anywhere in scripture. Then Jesus sent them the Holy Spirit to teach them all things:
Joh 14:26 “But the Counselor, the
Holy Spirit, whom the Father will
send in my name, he will teach
you all things…”

None of this is written explicitly in the bible. Thus, the vast majority of the teachings the apostles knew were not explicitly written at all.

But our salvation depends on knowing this Gospel.
Jesus said:
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel
to the whole creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized
will be saved; but he who does not
believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:15)

So how do we know what this Gospel is since it was never written down?
Even an athiest can know. Just learn what the early Christian writers said they learned from the apostles. Read what the fathers of the Church said they learned from the apostles. As anyone who studies these writings knows, these teachings they learned from the apostles are the same teachings of the Church today. The Church today got her basic teachings on Mary being our mother, on pugatory,on contraception, on mortal and venial sin, on grace, on prayer to the saints, on the moral teachings of the Church, especially sexual morality, on the basics of salvation, on the fundamental hierarchy of truths, the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer, etc, from the Gospel the apostles taught and preached.
There is nothing the early Christians learned from the apostles that the Church does not teach today. There is nothing the Church teaches today that the early Christians did not know, or that follows from what they knew. The exact same Gospel they believed is the exact same Gospel the Church teaches today. So when the Church teaches the faith, the Church is teaching the Gospel, the same Gospel that the apostles taught.
The apostles taught and preached their Gospel in an organized and systamatic way, otherwise the ordinary lay people could never remember it or understand it. They taught it usually in the form of explaining the history of salvation, based on the scriptures, then the arcticles of the creed, the sacraments, the commandments and prayer. Sometimes they combined the commandments and prayer, or other combinations. But the content was exactly the same as the content we know today, no matter what form they used. The reason they used the form of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer is because these are part of the hierarchy of truths, this is because “some truths are based on others as of a higher priority and are illumined by them” (General Directory for Catechesis). Thus, we can’t teach about how we receive the salvation won by Jesus without teaching the sacraments. We can’t teach about how we love God and neighbor without teaching the commandments, we can’t teach about how we turn to God without the teaching on prayer. We can’t teach who Jesus is, who God is, why He created us, why He came into the world, etc, without teaching the basics of the creed.
The entire Gospel the apostles taught is ordered around these hierarchy of truths, the history of salvation, taught by the scriptures, then the teachings of the Gospel in the form of the creed, sacraments commandents and prayer.
Thus, when we teach the Gospel in this form, the ONLY form it can be taught and learned, then we are teaching the entire Gospel, the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. So when a local Catechism is taught, then the Gospel is being communicated.

 

[dcdurel]

It follows that since priests are supposed to teach and preach the Gospel, then the homily should start off with the basics and teach and preach the hierarchy of truths, salvation history in the scriptures, then the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer. That is why the Church teaches the catechism is “a sure norm for teaching the faith”. That is why the homily is supposed to start off with some point of the readings or a the prayers of the mass, (just to make some connection to the liturgy) then give an exposition, a complete teaching of that point using the catechisms. Only the catechisms contain the whole Gospel, all the teachings the apostles handed down. Then the scriptures should be quoted to illuminate and as a witness to the basic teachings. And since this Gospel must be adapted to the current world situation today, it is essential that we also learn this Gospel through the current teachings of the Popes, who are addressing the world view through the Gospel that has been handed down.
The Church teaches, scripture, tradition (which teaches the whole Gospel) and the magisterium, all three are needed for handing down the Gospel, the Catholic faith.

So the greatest threat to the Church is the false idea of the Gospel, a Gospel in which only scripture is considered the word of God, and thus we never learn the whole Gospel, or even the basic truths of the Gospel. Without understanding where these truths come from and understanding them, we can’t evangelize, we can’t teach the love of God, and we can’t understand the basic teachings of God, we can’t change society, and society changes us, because the whole Gospel is based on these truths that are of a higher priority and all these other truths are illumined by them.

 

[freedom_fighter]

I believe that the greatest threat to the church are the radical muslims. The terrorists in other words. They want to kill us just because we are christians. Thats the cold hard truth. The karan tells them its ok to kill infidels (people who are not muslim). Im sorry but I dont ever remember the Bible telling us its ok to kill someone just because they are not christian. We have to realize the serverity of this.
WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THIS WAR OR NOT...PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR HERIOC MEN AND WOMEN FIGHTING OVER THERE. AFTER ALL THEY ARE FIGHTING TO GIVE YOU THE FREEDOM TO PRAY AND WORSHIP FREELY...SOMETHING YOU DONT GET ANYWHERE ELSE!!

 

[legeorge]

BILL BRADLEY:

An answer that is all encompassing and true. Give the man a hand and the answer is Satan.

:clapping: Yes! I quite agree. Satan, the father of lies. The father of every heresy ever set forth. The father of lukewarmness and complacency. Father of every false or misled religion. Satan.

But keep in mind that although he is the greatest threat to the people who make up the Body of Christ, he will be the big loser in the end, when he is crushed by Our Lady and vanquished by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. :bowdown2:

 

[challenger]

I chose Other: Freemasonry.

 

[NonDenom]

Tanais:

What do you think is the greatest threat to our Church in the modern world? I was just curious because I just read an editorial from a priest who says its Secularism. I just wanted to hear other opinions.

Hi
I voted for ‘‘The Truth’’, even though it isn’t an option.

 

[Catholic29]

NonDenom:

Hi
I voted for ‘‘The Truth’’, even though it isn’t an option.

Or as in “your” view of what “The Truth” is supposed to be.

You can of course claim that “Truth” to be Christ’s, but that won’t change the fact it is merely “your” claim, no matter how many passages you twist from here :bible1: .

My two cents :twocents:

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholic29:

Or as in “your” view of what “The Truth” is supposed to be.

You can of course claim that “Truth” to be Christ’s, but that won’t change the fact it is merely “your” claim, no matter how many passages you twist from here :bible1: .

My two cents :twocents:

I agree… if you take a minute and look over all 6 of his posts to date, you find that he doesn’t offer anything to any of the discussions with his posts, but just makes “snarky” little remarks. Like he did right here.

I wouldn’t do that on a non-Catholic forum, (and I’m on several!) so I have to wonder why he feels like it’s appropriate to do it to us?

The greatest threat to the church?

That’s a tough one… There are many “threats” but I’m not sure that I can see any particular one as “greater” per se.

…Unless it would be Catholics who simply do not stand up for the faith and live it out.
Pax vobiscum,