Gun Carrying Catholics Armed

[upant]

The minute I only have them because of a grandfathering provision I’ll be sure to do just that.

If you don’t like that, I’m sure you’ll carry on somehow.

so you want to keep yours but deny others the right to get one.

this is why your arguments run hallow. it is always easier to be a pushing a ban on something when one already owns it. it makes yours more valuable. is that your true motive?

Despite machinists being able to make them, how many gun-crimes in the US in the last 50 years have involved automatics?

how many gun crimes in the us in the last 50 years have involved semi-automatics?

No one is going to take your guns, Ender.

again you get to keep yours but you would deny the right to own to others.

If the black market price on even a cheap (but functioning) AR15 rises above a grand, grand and a half, you’ve effectively eliminated the ability for the vast vaaast majority of criminals to get one - as most of them are poor.

if they can afford bmw’s etc, they can afford an ar. it is an investment, especially when the homeowner will be less likely to have one. a tool of the trade

 

[Vonsalza]

so you want to keep yours but deny others the right to get one.

No, I want to deny others the ability to get one in the future.

As far as “right” goes, I see nothing in the Constitution that defines your supposed right to semiautomatic weaponry.

it makes yours more valuable. is that your true motive?

Ya caught me. My retirement plan is foiled.

how many gun crimes in the us in the last 50 years have involved semi-automatics?

I’d guess “most of them”.

if they can afford bmw’s etc, they can afford an ar.

About that. Check out the next “police blotter” put out by your local paper. Do you think you’re looking at people who can afford BMWs? Hell, I bet it’s a chore for most of them to swing the latest edition of Nikes.

it is an investment, especially when the homeowner will be less likely to have one. a tool of the trade

A “trade” of fear-motivated blindness, sadly.

*sigh

 

[upant]

No, I want to deny others the ability to get one in the future.

but you get to keep yours

I’d guess “most of them”.

you are right. i meant semi-auto rifle

About that. Check out the next “police blotter” put out by your local paper. Do you think you’re looking at people who can afford BMWs? Hell, I bet it’s a chore for most of them to swing the latest edition of Nikes.

i do, the local cops post to social media. the criminals seem to always have a gun and a bmw. now if you want to include the drug addict who sells everything for the next fix, i will agree, but he can’t afford one now.

 

[Ender]

Which is why I’ve been pretty consistent in wanting a sort of ban on semiautos as an entire class.

Banning these weapons would have virtually zero effect on gun crimes. Given this it is hard to see any reason for taking them from the 99% that does not misuse them in the unsubstantiated hope that such an action might be useful.

In the 1991 BJS Survey of State Inmates, about 8% of the inmates reported that they had owned a military-type weapon, such as an Uzi, AK-47, AR-15, or M-16. Less than 1% said that they carried such a weapon when they committed the incident for which they were incarcerated.

 

[Theo520]

In the 1991 BJS Survey of State Inmates, about 8% of the inmates reported that they had owned a military-type weapon, such as an Uzi, AK-47, AR-15, or M-16. Less than 1% said that they carried such a weapon when they committed the incident for which they were incarcerated.

I expect they are acting more like an enthusiast in possessing such guns,
but go with a concealable pistol or revolver when doing the crime.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Which is why I’ve been pretty consistent in wanting a sort of ban on semiautos as an entire class.

Banning these weapons would have virtually zero effect on gun crimes.

Sorta like banning automatics has had zero effect on crimes committed with automatics?

Riiiiight. You keep telling yourself that, fella.

In the 1991 BJS Survey of State Inmates, about 8% of the inmates reported that they had owned a military-type weapon, such as an Uzi, AK-47, AR-15, or M-16. Less than 1% said that they carried such a weapon when they committed the incident for which they were incarcerated.

Sure. I’m positive most of them would not have considered the semiautomatic Glock 19 or S&W 6906 they robbed the store or shot someone with as a “military type weapon”.

 

[Ender]

Sorta like banning automatics has had zero effect on crimes committed with automatics?

Given that the use of semi-automatic rifles occurs in only about 1% of crimes, banning them entirely couldn’t have much effect even if it completely eliminated their use.

Sure. I’m positive most of them would not have considered the semiautomatic Glock 19 or S&W 6906 they robbed the store or shot someone with as a “military type weapon”.

Perhaps if you were running the survey that’s the way you would have phrased the question, but it appears the BJS identified the weapons first and then categorized them. Do you have another reason for ignoring this (inconvenient) data?

A study by the Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services reviewed the files of 600 firearm murders that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 to 1991. The study found that handguns were used in 72% of the murders (431 murders). Ten guns were identified as assault weapons, including five pistols, four rifles, and one shotgun.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Sorta like banning automatics has had zero effect on crimes committed with automatics?

Given that the use of semi-automatic rifles…

I don’t target only rifles with my intended ban, so your point here isn’t relevant, frankly.

How many times are you guys going to make me repeat that?

Perhaps if you were running the survey that’s the way you would have phrased the question, but it appears the BJS identified the weapons first and then categorized them. Do you have another reason for ignoring this (inconvenient) data?

Sure. I have an excellent reason. Two really; it’s subjective and irrelevant.

The exact language you used is “military-type weapon” - which is, again, irrelevant as probably most semiautos would be classified off-the-cuff as NOT a “military-type weapon”. And it’s based purely on what an inmate thought his weapon was arbitrarily classified as.

I’d bet most had no idea and were just guessing… Playing along because it’s something to do in prison.

_A study by the Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services reviewed the files of 600 firearm murders that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 to 1991. The study found that handguns were used in 72%…

How many of those handguns were semiautos? Most, probably. Even Upant seems to be willing to concede that…

 

[upant]

I don’t target only rifles with my intended ban, so your point here isn’t relevant, frankly.

so we can assume you will also turn in all your auto’s when your ban is enacted?
or do you get to keep yours

 

[Theo520]

Sorta like banning automatics has had zero effect on crimes committed with automatics?

Riiiiight. You keep telling yourself that, fella.

That was an extremely dishonest statement, if you keep playing with such blatant strawmen you can just reply to yourself.

Your logic is akin to trying to stop student doodling by banning blue pens.
You may stop seeing students doodle in blue ink, but it doesn’t stop the doodling.
They will substitute other colors or even pencils and felt markers.

It’s highly unlikely banning automatics would stop gun crime, people just substitute another weapon…

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I don’t target only rifles with my intended ban, so your point here isn’t relevant, frankly.

so we can assume you will also turn in all your auto’s when your ban is enacted?
or do you get to keep yours

???

I don’t own any autos…

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Sorta like banning automatics has had zero effect on crimes committed with automatics?

Riiiiight. You keep telling yourself that, fella.

That was an extremely dishonest statement, if you keep playing with such blatant strawmen you can just reply to yourself.

1. It wasn’t dishonest, you just didn’t like it.
2. That’s not a straw man.
3. The only person you hold any dominion over whatsoever in this discussion is yourself, so I’ll reply to whatever strikes my fancy. Feel free to exercise your right to not respond if you please.

Your logic is akin to trying to stop student doodling by banning blue pens.

No, it’s clearly following the lead of other countries who have enacted similar bans and enjoy falling homicide rates.

Enjoy;
www.gunpolicy.org/

It’s highly unlikely banning automatics would stop gun crime, people just substitute another weapon…

As a matter of economics some do seek alternatives. But some are discouraged altogether and exit the “market”. Not a sophisticated idea, really. Rather basic.

 

[upant]

I don’t own any autos…

dang
i did it again, sorry
semi-auto, you need to destroy your semi-auto weapons so we know you aren’t just playing the devil’s advocate.

i can’t take your arguments seriously if you keep your semi-auto’s. if you truly believe in your ban you should be destroying your guns now.

No, it’s clearly following the lead of other countries who have enacted similar bans and enjoy falling homicide rates.

fake news, of course, gun deaths fall. what about deaths in general. have the perps resorted to other tools? in london they have.

London murder rate set for 13-year high after 31st stabbing death | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Bradskii]

Vonsalza:

I don’t own any autos…

dang
i did it again, sorry
semi-auto, you need to destroy your semi-auto weapons so we know you aren’t just playing the devil’s advocate.

i can’t take your arguments seriously if you keep your semi-auto’s. if you truly believe in your ban you should be destroying your guns now.

No, it’s clearly following the lead of other countries who have enacted similar bans and enjoy falling homicide rates.

fake news, of course, gun deaths fall. what about deaths in general. have the perps resorted to other tools? in london they have.

London murder rate set for 13-year high after 31st stabbing death | UK news | The Guardian

Nah. They haven’t. You might want to insinuate that bad guys have moved from guns to knives following stricter gun laws. But most of the ‘perps’ weren’t even born when the UK clamped down big time on guns after Dunblane. So they obviously cannot be moving from one method of killing to another.

They are entirely separate issues and unconnected.

Or maybe you are suggesting that the UK loosen gun laws in order to reduce the number of stabbings. I mean, who’d be dumb enough to bring a knife to a gun fight…

 

[TheOldColonel]

As long as we have Phaser Rifles, who can feel safe?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[upant]

They are entirely separate issues and unconnected.

the issue was gun deaths are reduced by gun bans. this is true. they are, but are killings? as london shows when you don’t have guns the perps use a different tool.

 

[Vonsalza]

dang
i did it again, sorry

Happens to the best of us

semi-auto, you need to destroy your semi-auto weapons so we know you aren’t just playing the devil’s advocate.

I find this odd. It’s like some weird ad hominem that I can’t label precisely.

It clearly is one because your issue here is the inability to separate “the man” and “the idea”. I just don’t know what type you’d call it…

i can’t take your arguments seriously…

That’s fine with me.

To be honest, I think you’re entrenched in your pro-gun ideology to the point that if I did post a picture of my rifles with bent barrels and cut receivers, you’d almost certainly switch to some other defense. Again, it’s probably because your attachment to these things is more emotional than rational so rational arguments both for and against are secondary concerns.

I’m not trying to be snarky there. I really think that’s true.

fake news, of course, gun deaths fall. what about deaths in general.

Gotta eat this elephant one bite at a time. “I require a solution that fixes everything and is simple and doesn’t inconvenience me in the slightest” is a child’s demand.

have the perps resorted to other tools? in london they have.

Some have and some have exited the murder market as their homicide rates show. They’ve been dropping or flat for the last 15 years in Britain as a whole.

 

[Vonsalza]

As long as we have Phaser Rifles, who can feel safe?

lol, the Fermi Paradox is rigidly solved now.

Intelligent species truly do end up killing themselves. Death by phaser rifle…

 

[Theo520]

To be honest, I think you’re entrenched in your pro-gun ideology to the point that if I did post a picture of my rifles with bent barrels and cut receivers, you’d almost certainly switch to some other defense. Again, it’s probably because your attachment to these things is more emotional than rational so rational arguments both for and against are secondary concerns.

I’d be delighted at your integrity for also cutting your receiver.
What I’ve seen online are people cutting an AR barell and leaving the receiver intact,
Take this woman running for congress, cutting a gun with the receiver already removed

10 to 1 the receiver has a new barrel and fore-stock.

 

[Ender]

I don’t target only rifles with my intended ban, so your point here isn’t relevant, frankly.

How many times are you guys going to make me repeat that?

My comment was made for clarity to ensure there is no misunderstanding. What you’re really after are semi-automatic handguns.

Sure. I have an excellent reason. Two really; it’s subjective and irrelevant.

The exact language you used is “military-type weapon” - which is, again, irrelevant as probably most semiautos would be classified off-the-cuff as NOT a “military-type weapon”. And it’s based purely on what an inmate thought his weapon was arbitrarily classified as.

Let me try again: the statistics were collected as to the types of guns used, and then were categorized by the researchers, not by the inmates, and you really have no idea either to how the classification was done or to the mix of weapons used. Here’s the definition they were working from at the time:

In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use. An assault weapon can be a pistol, a rifle, or a shotgun.

How many of those handguns were semiautos? Most, probably. Even Upant seems to be willing to concede that…

Most would be unfamiliar with the facts.

McGonigal and colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center studied firearm homicides that occurred in Philadelphia: 145 in 1985 and 324 in 1990. Most of the firearms used in the homicides studied were handguns: 90% in 1985 and 95% in 1990. In both years, revolvers were the predominant type of handgun used; however, the use of semiautomatic pistols increased from 24% in 1985 to 38% in 1990.

Theo520’s observation seems inevitable: “It’s highly unlikely banning automatics would stop gun crime, people just substitute another weapon…”