Gun Carrying Catholics Armed

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

I agree. A lot of pro gunners on this thread seem to tbink that they would stand tall when bullets start flying and pick off ‘the perp’ like it was a video game.

The reality is an extremely long way from that.

Well you must have lots of examples to back up your vivid mental picture.
If not, then you are just projecting and it’s not reality.

The NYPD police get a lot of training in the use of firearms. And they deal with stress on a daily basis. Out of anyone on the streets, they would be the ones most likely to react best in any deadly situation. And here’s what we find:

"NYPD reports hit-rate statistics both for officers involved in a gunfight and for officers who shoot at subjects who do not return fire. Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate was 18 percent for gunfights. Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate in situations in which fire was not returned was 30 percent.

Accuracy improves at close range, with officers hitting their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less; at longer ranges, hit rates fall off sharply, to 23 percent"

18% over an 8 year period. One wonders what 82% of the shots actually hit. And amazingly, for trained men and women who deal with stress every day, they could only hit their target 1/3 of the time from a distance of 7 yards!

Now swap that cop who knows what he or she is doing and are trained on a regular basis it with Joe Blow.

So there’s over 3,000 examples of how things work out under fire. Would that be enough?

Cops face hard time hitting targets in gunfights. Can teachers do it?

 

[Theo520]

Nope you are still deflecting

literally millions of people have concealed carry over the years.
If they acted like Barney Fife under pressure, we’d know
You would be throwing the actual stories in my face, not just conjecture based on the NYPD

 

[Lemuel]

Getting an unregistered gun and keeping it that way is the way to go.

 

[Bradskii]

Nope you are still deflecting

literally millions of people have concealed carry over the years.
If they acted like Barney Fife under pressure, we’d know
You would be throwing the actual stories in my face, not just conjecture based on the NYPD

Are you saying Joe Blow with next to no training whatsoever and probably none in a one on one with an armed person would act better than a trained NYD cop?

 

[Theo520]

I’m saying stop relying on your vivid imagination.

If it played out as you imagine the anti-gun crowd would be highlighting these stories and concealed carry would be very restricted already.

That you must rely upon conjecture instead of evidence disproves your argument.

 

[Bradskii]

I’m saying stop relying on your vivid imagination.

If it played out as you imagine the anti-gun crowd would be highlighting these stories and concealed carry would be very restricted already.

That you must rely upon conjecture instead of evidence disproves your argument.

Conjecture? No. This is evidence that trained men and women react very badly in situations where guns are concerned. I’ll ask again as you appear to be avoiding the obvious:

Do you think that Joe Blow would react better than NYPD cops?

 

[Theo520]

I asked for evidence of citizens causing mayhem and you failed to provide it

The best you can offer is your conjecture based on the NYPD, not citizens in concealed carry situations.

 

[Bradskii]

A refusal to answer a simple question? You have your head in the sand. Thanks for playing. I’ll call in again when there’s been another mass shooting in the US and you can claim the ‘perp’ would have been taken out by a John MCain wannabe if only gun laws were more lax.

God protect America. From you and others like you…

 

[MonteRCMS]

Video in today’s news.

A gun-carrying robber who took a purse from a woman on a busy street was “confronted” by a gun-carrying woman and shot by her. She turned out to be an off-duty cop, who then kicked away his pistol and then stepped on the perp. Excellent video, but I figured if I posted it, someone here would get upset. Venue was Brazil. The newspaper was the New York Post.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Just so you know, the Old Colonel is not your research assistant. So pull your own cases. But if you think proficiency with a handgun at the firing range indicates proficiency with the same weapon in a defense situation, you’re greatly mistaken. Those who carry always overestimate their skills. Add fear, stress, chaos, adrenaline and surprise to a situation and bad things happen. Judgement and motor skills decline as stress increases in all but the most experienced and highly trained. The perils of amateurs toting guns in public is already self evident and has resulted in many deaths and injuries. Accidents even happen at the range. One simple class to get a CWP is not nearly enough training. Yet that’s all it takes to start carrying. Surely you would agree.

 

[Theo520]

A refusal to answer a simple question? You have your head in the sand. Thanks for playing. I’ll call in again when there’s been another mass shooting in the US and you can claim the ‘perp’ would have been taken out by a John MCain wannabe if only gun laws were more lax.

God protect America. From you and others like you…

You refuse to acknowledge you have no evidence to support your conjecture.
You then ask questions as a deflection, I’ve seen you do it in the past.

But I will answer your question explicitely, since you missed it before when I clearly articulated their capability (legal carry).

The lack of evidence showing joe blow doesn’t respond like Barney Fife clearly indicates they (in general) handle themselves adequately.

I’ve not studied the data on the NYPD, maybe they are filled with Barneys, or maybe the situations are very different and don’t make a direct comparison:

• Police are in uniform, very different than someone doing concealed carry
• Police respond to closure, they have to pursue and detain a violent suspect. The concealed carry person just needs to scare them off, not arrest or incapacitate them.

In closing, if your conjecture were true, you would be able to reference evidence of it, as you have of the NYPD and their competence.

 

[upant]

Are you saying Joe Blow with next to no training whatsoever and probably none in a one on one with an armed person would act better than a trained NYD cop?

how much training and retraining does a ny cop get?

No. The vast majority of people would cower, not cover.

what data are you basing this statement on?

i grant you some will but some will duck and maneuver. there is a lot of civilian response to an active shooter situation training going on.

an example:

https://gunforhire.com/academy/civilian-response-to-an-active-shooter-situation/

another example is auburn university teaching run, hide, fight.

active killer situations, unfortunately, has become a reality and people are preparing for the encounter.

you can not carry on campus but employees can store a gun in their car.

bold is mine

"We basically teach our students some options that they can use in the event that they are confronted by an active violence situation on campus. The biggest thing that we teach, a simplified version, is ‘Run. Hide. Fight,’ said Associate Director of Campus Safety Tony Dean. "If you can run away from any type of active violence situation, just get away. If you can, then hide from it. We don’t want to confront an active violence perpetrator, but if not, then we want the students to understand that their survival sometimes is their own responsibility and we want them to be able to counter that aggressor as effectively as possible.”

the bottom line is that they are teaching people how to react in these situations. people are better able to handle it.

 

[Apache75]

Been carrying for 22 years. Nothing wrong with it. Don’t like open carry though.

 

[Ender]

Now swap that cop who knows what he or she is doing and are trained on a regular basis it with Joe Blow.

So there’s over 3,000 examples of how things work out under fire. Would that be enough?

Two things here: most confrontations involving civilians don’t involve fire fights, and there is a very different dynamic involved between fighting where the objective is to arrest someone and fighting to save your own life or that of people close to you. Besides, it would appear that Joe is not nearly as incompetent as you make him out to be.

In December 2007 a Minneapolis SWAT team, on a tip from an informant, kicked in the door and invaded the home of an Asian immigrant. The man was watching TV with his wife, but also had six children in the house. The homeowner, suspecting a criminal intrusion, grabbed a gun and exchanged gunfire with the SWAT team. Miraculously, no one was injured; SWAT team gunfire missed the man entirely, while the homeowner’s shots at two officers were repelled by body armor.

 

[Ender]

Those who carry always overestimate their skills. Add fear, stress, chaos, adrenaline and surprise to a situation and bad things happen. Judgement and motor skills decline as stress increases in all but the most experienced and highly trained.

It isn’t clear who is overestimating what here, but suggesting that only the highly trained are capable of defending themselves with a firearm is belied by the evidence.

A Baton Rouge, Louisiana, boy who was left home alone with his sister shot an intruder who tried to kick in the door of their apartment. The 10-year-old retrieved his mother’s gun from a closet, and shot Roderick Porter, who was, by then, inside.

 

[o_mlly]

Those who carry always overestimate their skills. Add fear, stress, chaos, adrenaline and surprise to a situation and bad things happen.

Not always. Google “youtube armed robber killed.” Many times good things happen.

Yes, there are some yahoos around who possess guns and are like children running around with scissors. But that fact does not make outlawing scissors a good idea.

 

[TheOldColonel]

You clearly did not read the thread and responded only to one of my comments out of context.

 

[TheOldColonel]

A ban was not suggested. You’re not following the conversation.

 

[Ender]

You clearly did not read the thread and responded only to one of my comments out of context.

You made a comment about how you imagined things to be. I responded with an actual incident which suggested that your imagination was perhaps not as accurate as you suspected.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Indeed. The example given by you was not apropos. The conversation was about church security, not a home invasion.