Gun Control

[chain]

I know no teaching that says use of violence is righteous act. It is rather looked at as using the principle of double effect. It is a bad act but less evil than the alternative.

My understanding of the principle of double effect… We can not allow perform bad actions even if they lead to good results - but we can sometimes allow good actions even if they have unintended (but known) bad consequences.

The poster child of double effect is terminating an ectopic pregnancy through the removal of a fallopian tube. We can not abort the pregnancy (a bad action with a good consequence), but we can treat the diseased fallopian tube (by removing it) and thus save the mother’s life (knowing that the embryo inside it will die). Of course in this case, I think it helps simplify our decision by knowing that ultimately the embryo would not have survived anyway (but we are still accelerating it’s death), and at least by treating the diseased tube (rather than letting it rupture), we are postponing the death of the mother (we can never prevent death).

 

[tommcguire]

Ps 114
How gracious is the Lord and just;
our God has compassion.
Te Lord protects the simple hearts;
I was helpless so he saved me.

Turn back, my soul, to your rest
for the Lord has been good;
he has kept my soul from death,
my eyes from tears
and my feet from stumbling.

I will walk in the presence of the Lord
in the land of the living.

This is my prayer. I know as a sinful man many times I do not walk in the presence of the Lord. My emotions, my inclinations are carnal and seek what I think is good, but often is only my own will not the will of God.

So if you put a gun in my hand, tell me to defend self and other with it. What happens when my emotions take over? What if revenge, anger, hatred, pride replace compassion in me as I raise the gun to kill the enemy? Would I not be placing myself in temptation? For some there seems to be absolute certitude about the use of violence to defend self and others; there is no doubt about the long standing Church positions based on human reason. I do not have that certitude, nothing in the arguments presented gives me that certitude.

May God have mercy on us!

 

[Alexander_Smith]

If you deny people’s right to own weapons to defend themselves and others, you deny the right of a nation to defend itself.

The bad guys win when the good guys do nothing. To whoever supports gun control, don’t worry, when you need us, we’ll be ready to do violence on your behalf.

 

[tommcguire]

Jesus does not ask his followers to ignore evil. Rather He urges them to acknowledge sin, and resist evil. However, His was is not the military way. He does not urge harming the enemy; He urges loving the enemy.

In the U.S. people have claimed the right to possess and use guns. That is a civil issue. The Church, using human wisdom, has made statements about lethal means of defense.

The disciple of Jesus is encouraged to find alternative non violent ways of resisting evil and defending self and others. Some form of gun control is a non violent way of resisting evil. People who have expressed intent to kill and murder citizens of the U.S. should not be able to purchase guns to carry out evil acts. Many of my neighbors who possess guns should not be allowed to own them. Laws and enforcement of those laws are non violent ways of combating evil. Yesterday at noon, someone fired off seven rounds on a gun just a block from where I am staying. I join mayors of cities seeking ways to rid urban streets of guns that are used for senseless violence.

This thread has given all the arguments from statistics and ideology for the right to own a gun. I grant that right is a reality. Now let us explore non violent ways to combat evil.

 

[tommcguire]

Jesus calls disciples to find alternatives to violence: He asks not to hate the enemy but love the enemy. How do disciples find alternatives to violence?

The Church, using human wisdom, has made statements about the use of lethal means of defense. The right to bear arms is a reality.

Yesterday at noon, someone fired off seven rounds on a gun just a block from where I am staying in our densely populated neighborhood. That is not acceptable and needs to be stopped. People with intentions of killing U.S. citizens can easily buy guns. Gun control is a non violent way to act against senseless use of guns. I join the mayors of cities seeking stronger gun laws to prevent the senseless killing and injury that takes place all around me now.

This thread has made all the statistical, ideological, philosophical and theological arguments for gun rights. Now how about finding alternatives to violence as a means of fighting evil?

 

[Ender]

The Church, using human wisdom, has made statements about the use of lethal means of defense.

This is where you end up when your personal opinions aren’t supported by Church teaching. If the Church was nothing more than the collective “human wisdom” of her bishops then her teachings would be worthless. Your interpretation of Scripture is not the Church’s interpretation so you prefer … yours. You have made your opinion known during this discussion but that’s all it is - your opinion, an opinion not supported by the Church. There is no further argument that is helpful. We are arguing from what the Church teaches. For those for whom the Church is not the final word that argument is not compelling … as you demonstrate with the position you have taken.

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

Where is there room for the Holy Spirit? The Church makes distinctions in her teaching; some things are taught infallibly, others not. There is room for the Holy Spirit to move disciples to make choices different from the norm. St Francis of Assisi is an example of one who, moved by the Holy Spirit, took positions apart from the norm. He certainly taught non violence.

I have found no teaching in the Catholic Church that demands a disciple of Jesus Christ MUST use lethal means to defend self or others.

What does it mean to be a seeker for the kingdom of God. We are not living as God wills, so the disciple is always seeking to come closer to the will of God. For sure that means rejecting evil and choosing good. How each human person does that is a complex process that includes teachings of Church, culture, family background, the Holy Spirit which impact the final decision to take an action. It is not a closed system as is proposed in many of the posts in this thread.

Oh God have mercy on us when we think we have all the answers.

 

[Michael17]

"There is an urgent need to work locally, nationally, regionally and globally to eradicate small arms and light weapons." ~ The Holy See, October 3, 2005

This statement can be found on the Vatican’s website here: vatican.va/roman_curia/se…mament_en.html

End of discussion. The above quote could not be anymore blunt and clear. The Vatican is not only for strict gun control, but the Vatican wishes to eventually eradicate all small arms and light weapons.

 

[bbarrick8383]

"There is an urgent need to work locally, nationally, regionally and globally to eradicate small arms and light weapons." ~ The Holy See, October 3, 2005

This statement can be found on the Vatican’s website here: vatican.va/roman_curia/se…mament_en.html

End of discussion. The above quote could not be anymore blunt and clear. The Vatican is not only for strict gun control, but the Vatican wishes to eventually eradicate all small arms and light weapons.

That quote is from the Vatican’s observer at the UN, not the Pope. Your link doesn’t even show the quote.

Sorry, not the end of discussion.

 

[Tigg]

That quote is from the Vatican’s observer at the UN, not the Pope. Your link doesn’t even show the quote.

Sorry, not the end of discussion.

How is it that Catholics are so confused as to what constitutes the teaching Magisterium of the Church?

 

[tommcguire]

Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God. Can you make peace with a gun?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God. Can you make peace with a gun?

That is the preferred result if one is forced to use a weapon.

That is why they named the 1873 Colt single action, the peacemaker.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God. Can you make peace with a gun?

Yes. Self defense, of yourself or others up to and including the use of deadly force is permitted by Church teaching. Not only permitted, but in some circumstances it is a DUTY for someone to protect themselves or others in such a manner.

Pax.

 

[bbarrick8383]

How is it that Catholics are so confused as to what constitutes the teaching Magisterium of the Church?

I dunno, Catholic teaching just makes sense to me and I’m not even Catholic.

 

[tommcguire]

Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you. Can you love the one you are about to kill?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you. Can you love the one you are about to kill?

Sure, as long as I got him before he get’s me. Would be extremely tough to forgive someone whose about to kill you for some stupid reason though.

I’d be willing to bet that Dr. Petit could have shot the intruders of his home before they raped his wife and doused gasoline on his daughters to set the house on fire.

As a matter of fact, wouldn’t you find it harder to love someone who killed your family than to love someone you had to kill in order to save your family?

 

[bigfootbob]

Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you. Can you love the one you are about to kill?

Yes, we are called to love them. We don’t have to like them, and we may even need to kill them to preserve our own life, but we are still called to love them.

CCC2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own
right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his
defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other
man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

 

[tommcguire]

Sunday in the Gospel Jesus’ gives us a parable in which the one who says He will do and does not, is contrasted with the one who says He will not do and does. What is important is doing not saying. I talk about non-violence, my challenge is to do what I say I will do. What is the challenge for one who is willing to kill an enemy?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Sunday in the Gospel Jesus’ gives us a parable in which the one who says He will do and does not, is contrasted with the one who says He will not do and does. What is important is doing not saying. I talk about non-violence, my challenge is to do what I say I will do. What is the challenge for one who is willing to kill an enemy?

To forgive him for trying to kill you.

 

[bigfootbob]

Sunday in the Gospel Jesus’ gives us a parable in which the one who says He will do and does not, is contrasted with the one who says He will not do and does. What is important is doing not saying. I talk about non-violence, my challenge is to do what I say I will do. What is the challenge for one who is willing to kill an enemy?

No one should want to kill an enemy. Violence should always be a last resort.

“Though defensive violence will always be ‘a sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men.”

• St. Augustine

“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”

• G. K. Chesterton