Gun violence - lest we forget

[Victoria33]

LA had a shooting incident today, thank goodness, no deaths and reportedly, no life threatening injuries but 4 people were shot.

It sounds counter-intuitive but how about more guns? That might work and before one thinks I’m being snarky, even Bob Dylan once said that may be needed.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I do care. The issue is that people are willing to murder other people. I want to know the Why. The how is gun, cars, knives, fire, lots of different how’s. Columbine Solving the Why will solve the how, solving the how can not be done. We have had the right to own arms since the start of this country. But we havent had people involved in mass shootings since the start of the country. Why? We have trouble people that need help, to ignore this fact will allow the continuation of these murders.

I am asking the right question? You are wanting to frame this as a gun vs no gun solution.

I think it is naive to think we can solve the “why” easier than we can solve the “how”. You might as well just ask all the people in the nation “Can’t we all just get along?”

 

[Thinker_Doer]

I do care. The issue is that people are willing to murder other people. I want to know the Why. The how is gun, cars, knives, fire, lots of different how’s. Columbine Solving the Why will solve the how, solving the how can not be done.

OK. So can you solve that? I would love to see such a comprehensive solution. But if you cannot ELIMINATE this, what can to suggest to LOWER the number of incidents? Because a partial solution is better than no solution.

It sounds counter-intuitive but how about more guns?

Sounds??? Counter-intuitve?? Let’s pour oil onto the fire… that will solve the problem.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think that is an admirable goal. I think some news organizations have already taken steps to reduce the sensationalism of their reporting of mass shootings, by things like not mentioning the shooter by name too much or at all. Beyond voluntary compliance like this, I don’t know that there is much more we can do to limit publicity without seriously abridging freedom of speech and the public’s right to know

I think they could be shamed publicly and repeatedly; perhaps even with protesters at their doors. For goodness sake, cigarette ads were banned because everybody knew that harmful activity was promoted by them. We know these shooters get a thrill out of their moment of dominance and fame, and yet we refuse to acknowledge that we’re advertising it as surely as the “Marlboro Man” advertised smoking.

 

[Victoria33]

Sounds??? Counter-intuitve?? Let’s pour oil onto the fire… that will solve the problem.

Sounds nothing, some locales require guns, look it up. They may have lower murder rates, we are talking about rural locations in Georgia for example.

Anyway, unfortunately, black markets will spring up… just like for drugs:

Feds intercept nearly 53,000 illegal Chinese gun parts in Los Angeles

The stocks, muzzles and other parts were packed in their own containers on 3 ships that also carried household items, apparel, toys, and machinery.

www.nbcnews.com

Look at that, Chinese gun parts seized in Los Angeles.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It sounds counter-intuitive but how about more guns? That might work and before one thinks I’m being snarky, even Bob Dylan once said that may be needed.

You might have a point. If some erstwhile shooter got shot down before he got his second shot off, the media probably wouldn’t advertise it other than locally, and not a whole lot of that.

 

[phil3]

OK. So can you solve that? I would love to see such a comprehensive solution. But if you cannot ELIMINATE this, what can to suggest to LOWER the number of incidents? Because a partial solution is better than no solution.

It wasnt that long ago mass shootings were a very rare event. Why?

 

[Thinker_Doer]

It wasnt that long ago mass shootings were a very rare event. Why?

That is not the question. What kind of partial solution can you offer, if any? You said that you care.

 

[upant]

You must think there is something different about them or else you would not have opined that no one will remember them.

yes, they don’t usually use the scary gun and don’t have the appeal to stir national emotion to generate feel-good laws.

In fact, to the extent that YourNameHere may have been listing those shootings to inspire action to prevent them, your citation of Chicago homicides only strengthens YourNameHere’s point.

your feel-good laws would not have stopped one shooting.

Complaining when one type of shooting gets attention could be seen as an attempt to thwart any and all measures of this sort.

complaining because the antis are politicking and not doing what needs to be done. the revolving door of justice needs to be closed.

the guy in philly that shot the cops, supposedly, his lawyer had started a plea deal before he came out of the house. now some say it is worthless, others say, not-so-fast.

Ok, all of you gun enthusiasts, come forward and present your suggested solution.

Start prosecuting and locking up the violent people (if they aren’t on the street, they can’t buy a gun). The DA needs to stop eliminating the gun charges in plea deals to get an easy conviction (a New Jersey favorite). Bring back the broken window policy. If you use a gun in a crime make it mandatory jail time. Start enforcing the gun laws on the books now.

It wasnt that long ago mass shootings were a very rare event. Why?

the decline of the family, lack of morals, our kids are taught that they can do nothing wrong. why get upset when they cross the line.

it isn’t just here, in Sweden explosions and bombings are up

it isn’t the tool

Sweden: Bombings and Explosions Up 45 Percent in 2019

Swedish police say that the number of explosive incidents and bombings in Sweden from January to July has increased 45 percent compared to 2018.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Rhubarb]

Why? Why don’t you tell us what will slow down these killings in Chicago? Baltimore? Detroit? All places run by Democrats and a lot more murders. You think we should give in to gun legislation when it hasn’t worked in these places?

That’s a pretty good statistic to look at. I agree that shootings in big cities are something that need further work.

But let’s take stock of what we’re seeing in terms of firearm mortality. Where ARE people getting killed in the US actually? I hope we can both accept the CDC as a reliable source?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

Well, look at that. New York has one of the lowest firearm mortality rates. California too. Illinois and Michigan are a bit more, but, still rather low on the scale. Maryland a bit higher - about middle of the road.

But where is gun violence the most concentrated? Alaska, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Wyoming, Montana - IE Republican Strongholds. And there are others too that don’t paint a great picture for gun violence in Republican states.

And I can use these numbers to explain why zeroing in on raw numbers from big cities is misguided. You see, there can be ten thousand hot dog stands in New York City. And that might lead someone to conclude “goodness! They sure like hot dogs in New York!” But New York has a HUGE population. And that rate of hot dog stands isn’t actually very big.

Consider California’s gun deaths in the chart - over 3100 for the year. That’s quite a bit! In fact, that’s more than the top 4 States in the running (Alaska, Alabama, Montana, and Louisiana) But note that the rate of death is incredibly low. New York’s rate was even lower. Illinois and Michigan’s are fairly low too.

But you’re SURE that gun legislation isn’t what’s helping this. See, Chicago’s laws only extend to their municipal line. There’s nothing to stop someone from going out of Chicago to get weapons and bring them back. ( Are Chicago's gun laws that strict? An explainer - Chicago Tribune ) (( PS this story debunks the 'Chicago has crazy restrictive gun laws as corroborated by - How Strict Are Chicago's Gun Laws? - Skokie IL Criminal Defense ))

And despite the outliers that all big cities are - by their nature - Illinois is not anywhere near the top of the death rate pile. According to the CDC, people are dying more frequently by gun violence in rural Republican controlled states where gun laws are lax to the point of irresponsible. Conservatives should look to the .50 caliber round in their own eye before worrying about the 9mm bullet in their neighbor’s eye.

 

[JonNC]

None of these, tragic as they are, come close to Wounded Knee, a mass shooting that killed 250 to 300 Lakota men, women, and children, carried out by the government.

Wounded Knee Massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

In fact, to the extent that YourNameHere may have been listing those shootings to inspire action to prevent them, your citation of Chicago homicides only strengthens YourNameHere’s point.

your feel-good laws would not have stopped one shooting.

Your opinion is noted. But some laws have been shown to have a positive impact. (And they aren’t gun bans.)

Complaining when one type of shooting gets attention could be seen as an attempt to thwart any and all measures of this sort.

complaining because the antis are politicking and not doing what needs to be done.

“Politicking” is how we get things done (provided you have the proper interpretation of “politicing”)

the revolving door of justice needs to be closed.

You means we need to lock up even more people? We already lead the world in the percentage of our population that we keep incarcerated. (655 per 100,000). Compare this to some of the more “wicked” nations: Iran: 284; Venezuela: 178; Russia: 316; Guatemala: 141. We’ve gone down that road farther than any other nation and it hasn’t helped us. When you are in a hole, the first rule is to stop digging.

Ok, all of you gun enthusiasts, come forward and present your suggested solution.

Start prosecuting and locking up the violent people…

See “incarceration rate” data above.

Bring back the broken window policy.

You mean the questionably effective broken windows policy that did more to alienate the community from the police? No thanks.

 

[upant]

Well, look at that. New York has one of the lowest firearm mortality rates. California too. Illinois and Michigan are a bit more, but, still rather low on the scale. Maryland a bit higher - about middle of the road.

a lot of room where no one is being shot. a lot of room with a lot of people to dummy down the real activity, no thanks

the city rate is where the action is. it stands on its own rate. you don’t need the state to dilute it

There’s nothing to stop someone from going out of Chicago to get weapons and bring them back.

even when all guns are illegal this will still happen. it is called the black market. look at drugs, singles (cigarettes) in new york, etc.

According to the CDC, people are dying more frequently by gun violence in rural Republican controlled states where gun laws are lax to the point of irresponsible

please link to this

 

[upant]

Your opinion is noted. But some laws have been shown to have a positive impact. (And they aren’t gun bans.)

which ones

You means we need to lock up even more people? We already lead the world in the percentage of our population that we keep incarcerated.

did you ever think that we lock up the wrong people? should we be locking up kids for weed and letting violent offenders go?

You mean the questionably effective broken windows policy that did more to alienate the community from the police? No thanks.

what is your suggestion? we need to get the criminals off the street. what we are doing now is not working.

taking guns from people not committing crimes isn’t going to work.

saying i will make it harder for xyz to get a gun when he already can’t isn’t going to help either. the feel-good laws presented would not have stopped a shooter.

 

[Rhubarb]

I provided the link already.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Your opinion is noted. But some laws have been shown to have a positive impact. (And they aren’t gun bans.)

which ones

Strict background checks. Statistics show it works.

You means we need to lock up even more people? We already lead the world in the percentage of our population that we keep incarcerated.

did you ever think that we lock up the wrong people? should we be locking up kids for weed and letting violent offenders go?

They let’s release about half of the 2 million we currently have locked up before we add any more to the prison population.

You mean the questionably effective broken windows policy that did more to alienate the community from the police? No thanks.

what is your suggestion? we need to get the criminals off the street. what we are doing now is not working.

Zero tolerance on broken windows does not get murders off the street.

 

[upant]

I provided the link already.

I did not see a story on the website where it said people were dying in rural gop controlled states. I just saw state averages, which isn’t the same thing. the numbers are diluted.

Strict background checks. Statistics show it works.

we have background checks

explain to me how a background check works on the black market? like what happens in the gun show parking lots.

They let’s release about half of the 2 million we currently have locked up before we add any more to the prison population.

what is their crime? would you release them to offend again? if they have a minor offense with no chance of hurting someone else, sure got for it.

Zero tolerance on broken windows does not get murders off the street.

sure it does, if they are caught up in the sweep. what is your suggestion? leave them on the street until they hurt their fellow citizen?

 

[Thinker_Doer]

Start prosecuting and locking up the violent people (if they aren’t on the street, they can’t buy a gun).

Let’s analyze your suggestion it a little. Where will the money come from? How many more prisons shall we build? Not to mention that the US already has the highest percentage of its population kept in prison. Think about this for a second! The “land of the free” has more people in prison (percentage wise) than even the worst dictatorships!

 

[upant]

Let’s analyze your suggestion it a little. Where will the money come from? How many more prisons shall we build? Not to mention that the US already has the highest percentage of its population kept in prison. Think about this for a second! The “land of the free” has more people in prison (percentage wise) than even the worst dictatorships!

so what do you do with these people if you can’t lock them up? wait till they hurt someone and then you have to lock them up? remember we are talking about violent people, violent crime.

 

[Emeraldlady]

None of these, tragic as they are, come close to Wounded Knee, a mass shooting that killed 250 to 300 Lakota men, women, and children, carried out by the government.

Doesn’t that demonstrate the uselessness of being armed against a government though? The Lakota people already had arms and they were useless against the might of the government arms. And they were more of a ‘regulated militia’ than todays random American.