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catholic1seeks
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Yes, it’s especially annoying when non-Catholics jump in as experts. Cue my cousin, for example.
Guys I'm upset: My cousin pastor wrote a HARSH piece on the Catholic Church (sex abuse)
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adgloriam
Guest
Can you elaborate on that? Thanks for the 2 sentences not ending in question marks, btw.adgloriam:
I disagree. I think it is better to require all priests to marry before ordination.
EDIT: OK, I just filtered your post in the thread and saw what you commented. Well, that historical perspective can be addressed and is part of Ecclesiastic history. I’m no expert on the subject so I won’t comment. Regarding your last comment celibacy is not “the cause”, it’s one weighted factor that adds to other causes. But that’s an entire work of research that I won’t reproduce here, and neither will I search for the authoritative studies I’ve read on the subject for the simple reason that I can’t find them easily.
Don’t think others naive to fall for that argument.
BTW: Our last point of divergence made for a treacherous semantic space of possibilities and I’d be prudent at pretending to pass judgement on ambiguous uses of latin, since certain things can’t be translated with exactness (latin into English much less so) without resorting to several explicate footnotes that would be a page long anyway.
And I still think you’re a protestant - or a convert at least.
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alphawoman
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Um, no. You don’t “get control over” your body with NFP, you observe patterns.
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alphawoman
Guest
Your cousin actually has a well considered opinion. She has the decency to inform herself about complementarism. Who are you to silence her or object?
Certainly, you can discuss the issue with her
I would recommend, instead, that you appreciate your cousin for caring about a critical issue and expressing outrage at the violation of thousands of innocents.
Certainly, you can discuss the issue with her
I would recommend, instead, that you appreciate your cousin for caring about a critical issue and expressing outrage at the violation of thousands of innocents.
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somecanadian
Guest
Sure you do. You learn how your body works, you learn how to control your actions to avoid pregnancy. It’s far more control than poisoning a healthy body to prevent that healthy body from doing what healthy bodies do. The former is working with your body and not treating it like it’s unhealthy. The latter is treating your body like a disease that needs to be cured.
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alphawoman
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Exactly. We live in a world with a diversity of opinions. Agree on the substance- children shouldn’t be abused by priests, and the structures in place continue to allow abuse to occur must be fixed.
Remember- you and your cousin have more in common in your positions than you have disagreements.
Incidentally, I share most of your cousin’s views.
Remember- you and your cousin have more in common in your positions than you have disagreements.
Incidentally, I share most of your cousin’s views.
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somecanadian
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You think men are so vile that if denied sex they will rape children?
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alphawoman
Guest
Funny, my NFP instructors and napro doctor gave me terrible medical advice that would have overlooked a tumour and 2 reproductive endocrine conditions if I hadn’t received medical advice outside the NFP/Catholic umbrella.
NFP allows women to work within the rhythms of their bodies, with a large margin of error, toward a desired goal. There’s no control about it.
I used NFP for 5 years and will never use it again. I don’t want to suddenly be scared with advanced reproductive cancer because my doctor is too ideological to do his/her primary job, which is providing medical care.
NFP allows women to work within the rhythms of their bodies, with a large margin of error, toward a desired goal. There’s no control about it.
I used NFP for 5 years and will never use it again. I don’t want to suddenly be scared with advanced reproductive cancer because my doctor is too ideological to do his/her primary job, which is providing medical care.
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alphawoman
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No, hence “most”. I believe that predatory individuals who prey on children shouldn’t be allowed to do so, and that unhealthy administrative structures (such as ones predicated on the conservation and concentration of power) promote cultures that allow predation to occur more easily.
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somecanadian
Guest
When NFP is used properly it is as effective as condoms. The stats are out there. Sorry it didn’t work for you.
And using NFP doesn’t mean you should forgo normal medical care. I’ve never even heard of people consulting NFP doctors… for me tracking how my body works wasn’t that difficult and didn’t require outside assistance.
Just because you had a bad experience, doesn’t mean all women will.
I mean, I could talk about all the damage that birth control did to the women I know but anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. Stats and data contain truth.
And using NFP doesn’t mean you should forgo normal medical care. I’ve never even heard of people consulting NFP doctors… for me tracking how my body works wasn’t that difficult and didn’t require outside assistance.
Just because you had a bad experience, doesn’t mean all women will.
I mean, I could talk about all the damage that birth control did to the women I know but anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. Stats and data contain truth.
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somecanadian
Guest
PS: Would appreciate it if you answer my question.
If you agree with their opinions then you think men who are denied sex will rape children. Is that really what you believe?
If you agree with their opinions then you think men who are denied sex will rape children. Is that really what you believe?
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alphawoman
Guest
Well, I’d be dead if I stuck with a napro doctor, and my conditions affect 5-12% of women of reproductive age. This was a respected Canadian clinic in a major city, with a practicing doctor who had no offendes with the regulating college of physicians and surgeons. I was receiving medical care actively.
As to efficacy, I suggest you read the multi-centre studies that generated the Pearl Indexes for the major methods. A (2007?) German study for the symptithermal method included several thousand observations, and so at face value looks robust.
Aftershocks deeper dive, I was astonished at the methodological weakness in sample selection (mostly white, mid-20s to early 30s, upper middle class, college educated). There are major gaps in follow-up methodology and classification of method drop-outs, such that reclassification of drop outs as either method or user failures brings efficacy well below the least effective barrier methods (e.g. diaphragms).
As to efficacy, I suggest you read the multi-centre studies that generated the Pearl Indexes for the major methods. A (2007?) German study for the symptithermal method included several thousand observations, and so at face value looks robust.
Aftershocks deeper dive, I was astonished at the methodological weakness in sample selection (mostly white, mid-20s to early 30s, upper middle class, college educated). There are major gaps in follow-up methodology and classification of method drop-outs, such that reclassification of drop outs as either method or user failures brings efficacy well below the least effective barrier methods (e.g. diaphragms).
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alphawoman
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See above.
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somecanadian
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It’s worked fine for the Catholic women I know so I’m fine. I’ve read plenty of studies and the overwhelming majority have the same info. When used correctly, it is effective.
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somecanadian
Guest
The above didn’t answer my question.
Do you think men who are denied sex will rape children?
Do you think men who are denied sex will rape children?
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alphawoman
Guest
No. I believe a culture that fosters power and control dynamics, and secrecy around both criminal and morally sanctioned behaviour, attracts self-selected candidates with predatory tendencies at an incidence above the population average.
I also believe that a culture that actively prevents democratizing its hierarchy and exposing itself to wider scrutiny allows its worst behaviours to be hidden and tacitly or expressly condoned.
Most organizational checks and balances occur on a generational cycle. However, the Church has especially struggled with abuse because of the limited pool of candidates from which to elect bishops and cardinals. By the time an individual is elevated to leadership, he has already had to prove himself loyal to the prevailing canon law and political culture. Cultural reform under those conditions is extremely hard to effect.
I also believe that a culture that actively prevents democratizing its hierarchy and exposing itself to wider scrutiny allows its worst behaviours to be hidden and tacitly or expressly condoned.
Most organizational checks and balances occur on a generational cycle. However, the Church has especially struggled with abuse because of the limited pool of candidates from which to elect bishops and cardinals. By the time an individual is elevated to leadership, he has already had to prove himself loyal to the prevailing canon law and political culture. Cultural reform under those conditions is extremely hard to effect.
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alphawoman
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Unless you actually read the studies and rely on the data in the clinical trials instead of anecdotal accounts from small samples.
Also, maybe consider the level of honesty you’re receiving from your friends. Frankly, contraceptive efficacy is quite personal, and it’s unlikely that friends will tell you their full experience with NFP.
It works well for some people, and I’m happy for them that it fits their needs and isn’t made impossible by their physiology. But when you dig deeper into clinical trials beyond headline efficacy and understand age bias, education bias, and race bias effects—as well as the impact of drop-outs—method effectiveness of the symptothermal method is likely 80-85%, with user effectiveness around 65-70%.
I would like NFP methods to be better developed to include understanding of common hormonal disorders, and to include broader and more representative populations. The Church hasn’t put financial resources behind that research, which speaks to its real commitment to upholding Humanae Vitae’s call to action to scientists.
Also, maybe consider the level of honesty you’re receiving from your friends. Frankly, contraceptive efficacy is quite personal, and it’s unlikely that friends will tell you their full experience with NFP.
It works well for some people, and I’m happy for them that it fits their needs and isn’t made impossible by their physiology. But when you dig deeper into clinical trials beyond headline efficacy and understand age bias, education bias, and race bias effects—as well as the impact of drop-outs—method effectiveness of the symptothermal method is likely 80-85%, with user effectiveness around 65-70%.
I would like NFP methods to be better developed to include understanding of common hormonal disorders, and to include broader and more representative populations. The Church hasn’t put financial resources behind that research, which speaks to its real commitment to upholding Humanae Vitae’s call to action to scientists.
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somecanadian
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Actually when I talk about its effectiveness I talk about actual studies. I’m not going to link them. Go ahead and look them up but I honestly think you’ve made up your mind and won’t be interested.
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alphawoman
Guest
Yes, I have made up my mind, and it was after giving NFP an earnest and faithful attempt for 5 years, and after reading clinical trials in more depth than you have. You may be surprised to know that I have professional experience with clinical trial design, so I’m not speaking out of my ear.
If that’s your attitude in speaking to someone who is theoretically open to NFP, and wants it to be more empirically reliable for wider adoption, I shudder to think of how you speak to people less certain in their faith. Feel free to link your studies, and I can address my concerns.
If that’s your attitude in speaking to someone who is theoretically open to NFP, and wants it to be more empirically reliable for wider adoption, I shudder to think of how you speak to people less certain in their faith. Feel free to link your studies, and I can address my concerns.
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somecanadian
Guest
Pretty sure by your comments you aren’t open to NFP. I just don’t appreciate people who have no respect for Church teaching who also call themselves Catholic. If you aren’t Catholic, well sorry. I don’t hold non-Catholics to the same standard.
And no. You presume you are more studied, you presume you know more. There’s really no point continuing. Best of luck. I have no interest in furthering this conversation, it’s besides the point of the topic anyway.
And no. You presume you are more studied, you presume you know more. There’s really no point continuing. Best of luck. I have no interest in furthering this conversation, it’s besides the point of the topic anyway.
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