Guys I'm upset: My cousin pastor wrote a HARSH piece on the Catholic Church (sex abuse)

[alice24]

And also, coudn’t it be that the monsters who perpetrate such gross crimes are, in fact, not likely to have healthy sexual lives, in the first place? E.g., marriage may not even be on their minds!

Which is basically what I mean. Priesthood without marriage attracts three people: those who wish to bee good priests and offer it up to christ to live without a spouse, those who want to be good priests and don´t have the wish to marry and don´t feel any pain with remaining single, and those who see a safer place for unmarried men with the ability to live their violent sexuality. I only say that We maybe could get rid of the last in a higher number when we “open the club” a bit.

 

[somecanadian]

I should introduce you to my sister. She feels the same way you do. Haha. Not laughing at you, just am kind of amused because I had this exact same conversation earlier this morning.

 

[alice24]

celibate people are apparently more likely to abuse children… according to your logic.

Well, you seem to not want to understand me. Child abusers seem to feel more confident in a marriage free priesthood. The numbers speak out of themselves. Of course I wouldn´t ban celibacy. But I would prefer the eastern way to let it be the priest´s choice.

 

[alice24]

And AGAIN, abuse happens all the time in married life, including married clergy. See the various link re: Protestant clergy.

I don´t care for protestant abuse stats in this context, because the socio-dynamics in protestant churches aren´t comparable to the catholic church. For the catholic churches, I don´t see it happens that much in the eastern rite or the orthodox church.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I suggest you read over this carefully:

What caused the crisis? Key findings of the John Jay College study on clergy sexual abuse

Key findings of the John Jay College Study on clergy sexual abuse

www.americamagazine.org

3. Was celibacy the cause of the sexual abuse crisis? The researchers discount celibacy as a cause of abuse for several reasons. The constancy of required celibacy since the 11th century would have resulted in a greater number of cases perpetrated by a larger number, if not all, of the clergy over time. There is no evidence to suggest that every Catholic priest throughout the ages has sexually abused a minor; to the contrary, most priests have never offended in this manner. Furthermore, the sexual abuse of minors by priests in the United States “increased steadily from the mid-1960s through the late 1970s, then declined in the 1980s and continues to remain low.” The unchanging rules relating to celibacy would not account for this rise and subsequent decline. It was beyond the scope of this study to determine the total number of clergy who sexually abused adults or had consensual sexual activity with adults, but the challenge of living a celibate life and intimacy deficits can cause men to act out in inappropriate ways.

 

[somecanadian]

I just personally don’t think it’s the marriage free priesthood that’s causing the issue but rather the entire culture that gripped the Church for a time. But, that’s just my take.

I don’t think now is the time for drastic changes. I do think it would cause more confusion and more upset.

 

[alice24]

I won´t see this as drastic, but just for me because I´m interested: How would you explain the differnence of abuse numbers in the eastern and the western rite? Honest question.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I just personally don’t think it’s the marriage free priesthood that’s causing the issue but rather the entire culture that gripped the Church for a time. But, that’s just my take.

It’ not. Our fellow interlocutor seems to be suggest the majority of celibate priests are deviant. That’s what it sounds like to me. While the number is large and unfortunate, it is still only less than 10% (4%?) of the priestly population.

 

[somecanadian]

Totally different approach to the clergy, totally different culture.

My sister is Eastern rite. The married clergy is only a small difference that exists between the two rites.

 

[catholic1seeks]

For the catholic churches, I don´t see it happens that much in the eastern rite or the orthodox church.

I think Eastern Christians would be just as sad at your words and claims. They know the value of celibacy very well, and all their bishops are celibate.

 

[alice24]

There is no evidence to suggest that every Catholic priest throughout the ages has sexually abused a minor; to the contrary, most priests have never offended in this manner.

I never said the reason for abuse in any century before would have been the celibate - thats strange. Again, I´m talking about socio-dynamics, and those couldn´t have been similar 1600 and today. What I say is that today , and mostly in the western world, celibacy has become a risk factor. Maybe partly because vocations are lesser in general and, or religions isn´t on the top 5 profession list for skilled healthy men anymore, but we can´t simply skip the celibacy factor right now.

 

[alice24]

I honour the celibate, too. You seem to be unwilling to just try to understand my point, so I´m out now.
By the way, I´m eastern orthodox. No need to explain my church to me.

 

[somecanadian]

I am honestly having a hard time understanding your point but please know I’m not being deliberately obstinate. I just don’t really understand how married clergy would stop anything. I think you presume they would be less likely to be sinful and more likely to report sin but I don’t really believe that because of my experiences with married men who were abusers.

I am sorry if you felt anyone here was deliberately being obstinate or dismissive. I honestly just can’t wrap my head around it.

 

[alice24]

I don´t want in any way shut down your knowledge, I´m sorry ! I myself am sadly not out of experience on this theme. One aspect of what I try to say is that a mixed (married and non married) clergy is maybe better in preventing abuse because abuse is often connected with homogenous, closed societies.

 

[catholic1seeks]

No, I’m just tired of people using the blame game to promote their agendas. I’ve heard people literally single out one issue as the absolute cause over these last few days: From homosexuality to “toxic masculinity” to patriarchy to celibacy to pre-Vatican II to post-Vatican II to the sexual revolution.

With my cousin pastor Rev Erin, it was patriarchy and celibacy.

For still others, it’s:

Cardinal Burke: Pope must ‘take action' to clean up 'homosexual culture' in Church - LifeSite

The 'homosexual culture' in the Church hierarchy must be 'purified at the root,' he says.

www.lifesitenews.com

I find it all equally gross and unfair.

 

[alice24]

I have no agenda. I don´t need one. Nor did I talked about “abolute causes”. Not adressing any possible reason is also not a solution and maybe very well lead to the crisis.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I don’t think anyone here or even most of the hierarchy today is “Not adressing any possible reason”

 

[alice24]

I feel differently. I can´t even count the number of abuse scandals here in germany in the past years. I worked in a combined history/theology department at university for some years and with many clergy as well. The minority adressed anything. This is my experience.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Well, I’m not going to keep talking about celibacy as the issue.

I don’t believe there is any evidence.

Celibacy as refraining from sex is the call for MANY people – all Christian people who are unmarried. It is a hard calling, and we all fall. But going after children or young men, abusing them, taking advantage of them… THAT is a different sort of creature. It’s not merely falling under the pressures of celibacy.

 

[somecanadian]

Doesn’t hurt to hear different theories but I think we’re all a bit gunshy.

Like you I have non-Catholic family and all day my facebook newsfeed has varied from ‘if you force men not to have sex this is bound to happen’, which, to me, is a GROSS idea… to ‘this is proof the Catholic Church is ruled by the devil!’

So yeah… just a bit burnt out I think.