Had vasectomy - so where does it leave me

[sharmin]

Growing up - BEFORE the information glut called the internet - not knowing a single Catholic - and being homeschooled - by the time I was old enough to know what sterilization was (around age 8) I knew that Catholics were not permitted to do it, same for birth control.

Cannot fathom how someone growing up today could miss this bit of common knowledge.

I know…it’s unbelievable! And yet, seemingly possible. LOL

OP, if you didn’t know it was a mortal sin, you did not commit mortal sin.

 

[sharmin]

Well, yes. WHEN you are sorry, you may give a good confession. It may not be now, but later you may understand and become remorseful. Or your wife may. But, I would talk to your priest anyway. Many do not understand the magnitude of this sin prior to doing it. Or they wouldn’t have. He will give you spiritual guidance and maybe help you examine your conscience. Peace to you.

If I’m not mistaken, a venial sin does not have to be confessed, right? This was obviously a venial sin since the OP did not know Church teaching on the gravity of this action.

 

[sharmin]

And yet CCLI claims 99% effectiveness, and I’ve been using it for 20 years at 100% effectiveness.

To bring this on topic - if something is a mortal sin, and you don’t do the research to find that out, what is your culpability?

But you thought WebMD was a reliable source for the effectiveness of the vasectomy…why not for NFP? LOL

 

[1ke]

But you thought WebMD was a reliable source for the effectiveness of the vasectomy…why not for NFP? LOL

WebMD does not accurately state the effectiveness of NFP because it includes the scientific methods of NFP together with the calendar rhythm method and its cousin the standard days method when reporting effectiveness.

Scientific methods of NFP based on fertility sign observation all have method effectiveness rates above 99%. The calendar rhythm and standard days method both have method effectiveness of 75%.

Putting the two together when reporting effectiveness distorts the data inexcusably.

The three main methods of scientific NFP which use one or more of the signs of fertility – temperature, mucus, and cervical position-- have nothing in common with calendar rhythm which is not based on observation but on averages. The NFP methods are extremely effective as independent and peer reviewed studies show.

Again, however, I point out that the immorality of contraception is not based in any way on “effectiveness.”

 

[newbetx]

If I’m not mistaken, a venial sin does not have to be confessed, right? This was obviously a venial sin since the OP did not know Church teaching on the gravity of this action.

venial sins, too are confessed. They need NOT be done with a private conversation with a priest. But they can. Some should, anyway. The value of confession to a priest can be significant. They can guide us to avoid future sin.

You know it’s not JUST the vasectomy. I would suspect that the reason he’s finding it difficult to feel sorry is because he doesn’t know the "reasons behind the rules. " This can lead to more sin. Sex is valuable in a relationship. Any contraception can cheapen it. To avoid this the priest can give valuable advice. And so can we.

Mine would be to read The Good News About Sex and Marriage by West or Popcack’s Holy Sex. Theology of the Body based information brings new light to an old subject many think they understand fully, but they are not even close to knowing.

 

[sharmin]

WebMD does not accurately state the effectiveness of NFP because it includes the scientific methods of NFP together with the calendar rhythm method and its cousin the standard days method when reporting effectiveness.

Scientific methods of NFP based on fertility sign observation all have method effectiveness rates above 99%. The calendar rhythm and standard days method both have method effectiveness of 75%.

Putting the two together when reporting effectiveness distorts the data inexcusably.

The three main methods of scientific NFP which use one or more of the signs of fertility – temperature, mucus, and cervical position-- have nothing in common with calendar rhythm which is not based on observation but on averages. The NFP methods are extremely effective as independent and peer reviewed studies show.

Again, however, I point out that the immorality of contraception is not based in any way on “effectiveness.”

I was just teasing. I meant the LOL to show that. Sorry!

 

[cheese_sdc]

So what is your point? You affiliation isn’t Catholic. And I could assume your brother is not either. So it doesn’t sound like he was under an religious pressure not to have a vas. Or if he is Catholic, are you blaming the church for his predicament?

He is Catholic. I was Catholic.

They followed the Church’s teaching regarding ABC.

My brother has great faith. But faith isn’t always enough and somebody needs to point out the reality of the situation because after the piety and platitudes fail, real people are faced with real situations.

 

[newbetx]

He is Catholic. I was Catholic.

They followed the Church’s teaching regarding ABC.

My brother has great faith. But faith isn’t always enough and somebody needs to point out the reality of the situation because after the piety and platitudes fail, real people are faced with real situations.

That explains things.

Reality is this; You are what you are and you have what you have. One has to deal with it. One can leave the faith because they don’t like to suffer. But that doesn’t prove that with having faith, one is worse off.

Criticizing the ignorance of others is easy. Proving self ignorance to oneself is more difficult. The marvels of ABC doesn’t free us for self-indulgence, it makes us a slave to it.

People today think of sex as a right, not as a gift. When one is driven by only pleasure, one can bet that Satan is quite pleased.

I pity your brother. It doesn’t sound like he gets support from his family but rather disparaging attitudes. You blame the kids. They aren’t the real problem, now are they?

And you may think I don’t have a clue. You are wrong. I am a convert. I know very well the issues, the anxiety, and the temptation and the guilt.

What most people don’t comprehend, that the church does, is that when you contracept, you reduce the significance of the act. What you and the OP may not realize is WHY the church would take such a stand. I suggest everyone find out. Then it will make sense. One should learn ones faith instead of pretending they know better.

 

[wanner47]

That explains things.

Reality is this; You are what you are and you have what you have. One has to deal with it. One can leave the faith because they don’t like to suffer. But that doesn’t prove that with having faith, one is worse off.
**
Criticizing the ignorance of others is easy. Proving self ignorance to oneself is more difficult. The marvels of ABC doesn’t free us for self-indulgence, it makes us a slave to it.**

Truer words were never spoken. This is a very well written article, authored by a former pro-choice atheist, which elaborates on that topic.

 

[Vico]

If I’m not mistaken, a venial sin does not have to be confessed, right? This was obviously a venial sin since the OP did not know Church teaching on the gravity of this action.

From Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Lesson 19:
ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3index.htm

Q. 780. What sins are we bound to confess?
A. We are bound to confess all our mortal sins, but it is well also to confess our venial sins.
Q. 781. Why is it well to confess also the venial sins we remember?
A. It is well to confess also the venial sins we remember: 1.(1) Because it shows our hatred of all sin, and 2.(2) Because it is sometimes difficult to determine just when a sin is venial and when mortal.
Q. 782. What should one do who has only venial sins to confess?
A. One who has only venial sins to confess should tell also some sin already confessed in his past life for which he knows he is truly sorry; because it is not easy to be truly sorry for slight sins and imperfections, and yet we must be sorry for the sins confessed that our confession may be valid – hence we add some past sin for which we are truly sorry to those for which we may not be sufficiently sorry.

 

[PaulinVA]

Q. 782. What should one do who has only venial sins to confess?
A. One who has only venial sins to confess should tell also some sin already confessed in his past life for which he knows he is truly sorry; because it is not easy to be truly sorry for slight sins and imperfections, and yet we must be sorry for the sins confessed that our confession may be valid – hence we add some past sin for which we are truly sorry to those for which we may not be sufficiently sorry.

What?

 

[Lypher]

Ok, let’s be fair. I didn’t know many things were against the Church’s teachings until I happened up on this forum. A lot of reason why (in my case) is because some issues aren’t things I think about and/or aren’t discussed in Catholic circles a lot.

That is true… As a convert I have found that most Catholics don’t know their Church. It is very sad…

For example, I was interested in IVF, but it was at the same time that I joined this forum. So I found out this late in life, that it was against the Church’s teachings. I’m not afraid to admit that it makes no sense to me at all, but still, I now know it’s against Church teachings.

It makes perfect sense to me. I had to read the CCC and the source documents and then it was very understandable.

Another example is sterilization. I’ve heard about it here and there when people say things like, “I’m going to have a vasectomy after this one”, or “I’m going to have my tubes tied after this one”. But it just didn’t occur to me that it would be a sin.It wasn’t covered in any of my classes. It’s not like it’s a subject of discussion at the homily, and even if it was, I missed it. But I did learn about it later.

The is true and I fault liberal Priests and those that do not want to Offend the flock instead of teaching what they are supposed to. Some Priests seem to lack Moral courage.

So, please be a bit kind (not that you weren’t, I’m talking in general). There’s a lot people don’t know about the Church’s teachings and even more, they don’t know WHY.

Yes…again I think it is because of a lack of our Priest to properly form the flocks consciences.

How about this: most of us should know that taking birth control pills to control pregnancy is not allowed in the Church. But many people don’t know that they ARE allowed in the case of treating medical problems. So it works both ways sometimes.

But that is VERY rarely…but a valid point.

Or how about this: many people think NFP is ‘the rhythm method’. You know what my pediatrician told my mom about NFP? He said, “what do you call those who practice the rhythm method?” mom said, “what?” He said, “parents”. And that was the end of the discussion. Why don’t more people know about NFP? Not knowing what’s allowed and not allowed works in both directions unfortunately.

Yes the old Rhythm method was pretty bad, but NFP works really well. Again if it is used selfishly it is a sin. We are called to be open to life if we can have children.

Oh yeah, here’s another good one My ex-step brother is a urologist who performs vasectomies. He’s Catholic. No one ever said anything to me about it. The closest thing someone said was, I don’t think the church likes that.

You again are right. They should have told you. I would read the CCC so you can find form your on conscience according to the principles of the Church if you are not getting help from your Priest.

God Bless You…

 

[newbetx]

Truer words were never spoken. This is a very well written article, authored by a former pro-choice atheist, which elaborates on that topic.

Wow! Great article.

And from it

…and that the sexual act, by default, has no significance outside the relationship between the two people involved.

And that is the fallacy. There are those that understand only this. And there are those that understand it is much more than this. Those that “get it” finally can not think the former any longer. And it becomes the beautiful act it was intended to be all along (again).

We’re not meant to be a slave to our bodies. Our bodies are meant to follow our hearts. Our hearts are meant to follow the will of God and the spirit of the guidelines he has provided us.

 

[Lypher]

Wow! Great article.

And from it

And that is the fallacy. There are those that understand only this. And there are those that understand it is much more than this. Those that “get it” finally can not think the former any longer. And it becomes the beautiful act it was intended to be all along (again).

We’re not meant to be a slave to our bodies. Our bodies are meant to follow our hearts. Our hearts are meant to follow the will of God and the spirit of the guidelines he has provided us.

Great Post…

 

[Vico]

What?

The Baltimore offers practical advice (a safegurad, as sometimes we are not sure of the difference between a serious and less serious sin). From the latest Catholic Catechism: although it is not necessary to receive absolution from a priest for venial sins, since there is no loss of sanctifying grace with them, it is still good to confess them.

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50
1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

Venial Sin scripture example:
“But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.” Matthew 12:36

Pope Pius XII, 1943:
“As you well know, Venerable Brethren, it is true that venial sins may be expiated in many ways which are to be highly commended. But to ensure more rapid progress day by day in the path of virtue, We will that the pious practice of frequent confession, which was introduced into the Church by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, should be earnestly advocated.”

 

[PaulinVA]

Vico, I was referring to the fact that the paragraph in the Baltimore Catechism actually said to include a sin previously confessed (that you know you were sorry for) so you can say you are sorry for your sins.

That is so wrong on so many levels. To be absolved of your sins you have to be sorry for those sins, not other sins. And, once a sin is confessed, you shouldn’t confess it again.

 

[Vico]

Vico, I was referring to the fact that the paragraph in the Baltimore Catechism actually said to include a sin previously confessed (that you know you were sorry for) so you can say you are sorry for your sins.

That is so wrong on so many levels. To be absolved of your sins you have to be sorry for those sins, not other sins. And, once a sin is confessed, you shouldn’t confess it again.

The explaination is that the sorrow from a past mortal sin extends to all our sins and there must be sorrow for a good confession, and it adds humility. Confession is taught in many formats. The Dominicans teach this form:

"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I am a married (single) man (woman). (Or: I am a widow(er), divorced; a teenager, etc.) It has been . . . weeks (years) since my last worthy confession, said my penance and received holy Communion. I accuse myself of the following sins. " … “And I also wish to include mention of” … “a sin of my past life.” Then go on to say: “For these and all my other sins which I cannot now remember, and for all the sins of my past life, I am heartily sorry and humbly ask pardon of Cod, and penance and absolution of you, Father.”

I was taught using the Baltimore Catechism series in CCD classes. Later I learned the Byzantine format.

Historical Information on the Baltimore Catechism:

No. 00 for Prayer classes. No. 0 for Confession classes and certain adults. No. 1 for First Communion classes. No. 2 for Confirmation classes. No. 3 for two years’ course for Post-Confirmation classes. No. 4 for Teachers and Teachers’ Training classes.

Baltimore Catechism # 3
Nihil obstat: ARTHUR J. SCANLAN, S.T.D., Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: + PATRICK J. HAYES, D.D., Archbishop of New York. NEW YORK, June 29, 1921.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I pity your brother. It doesn’t sound like he gets support from his family but rather disparaging attitudes. You blame the kids. They aren’t the real problem, now are they?

You’re absolutely right. The kids aren’t the problem. Rather the problem are those people who have given up their own common sense and discernment to a body of people who’s life experiences are complete foreign to stresses of marriage and childrearing in our present time.

There are consequences to everything, including false piety and a saccharine spirituality that seems sweet, but leaves a bitter aftertaste. When a family has more stress than it can bear - and each individual has to determine wear that limit is, then children suffer.

And before one of y’all pulls out some quote about suffering for the sake of the kingdom BS, that kind of suffering is for adults. Adults whose life choices knowingly bring suffering to their offspring are contemptible.

Which is what happens when a family system is stressed beyond the capacity of the parents support it, mentally, financially, or emotionally.

And you may think I don’t have a clue. You are wrong. I am a convert. I know very well the issues, the anxiety, and the temptation and the guilt.

And you may think I don’t have a clue, but I was raised Catholic, and attended seminary, graduated with honors from the minor seminary summa cum laude (top 3 in my class).

So I understand the Church’s position. I just find it wrong.

 

[newbetx]

And you may think I don’t have a clue, but I was raised Catholic, and attended seminary, graduated with honors from the minor seminary summa cum laude (top 3 in my class).

So I understand the Church’s position. I just find it wrong.

So you are married then?

 

[cheese_sdc]

So you are married then?

Married, with one child. Practiced NFP for years, and used the Pope Paul VI Institute to help us conceive, as we have fertility issues and wanted to have all treatments in keeping with Catholic bio-ethical standards. Even did a novena of first Friday masses for help conceiving.

We used the Pill for a few years b/c of wife’s health issues, but now are not using any methods of birth control.

So yeah. I’ve got the cred.