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ptisme
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Scriptural proof of Mary being the arc of the new covenant and queen of heaven using typology
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Telstar
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This prayer is most often used when saying the Rosary, at the very end. The Rosary is the most misunderstood prayer by all non-Catholics, mainly because it’s more than just the ‘repetitive’ prayer that most people think it is. Actually, it is a form of spiritual meditation on many aspects of the life of Jesus. So, those who believe it’s just another means for Catholics to ‘glorify Mary’, couldn’t be more wrong. When Catholics say the Rosary, they are actually meditating on the life of Christ, from His lowly birth, to Glorious Ascension. Since His life naturally includes Mary, some parts of it are also focused on her role in His life, as well. But, most of it is about Jesus.
It’s only a ‘big deal’ to those who do not understand it, or are confused by their own erroneous definitions of what constitutes ‘worship’. Prayer does not equal ‘worship’. It never has, and never will. That is a definition that has been given to it by those who broke away from the Church during, and since, the ‘reformation’. Prayer is simply a means of carrying on a conversation with someone. While it is usually applied to people speaking with God, that has not always been the case. If we read many old classic novels (such as Dickens or Shakespeare), it’s used in a very different way. Pray tell, good sir, where did Protestants come up with their idea that all prayer = worship?
In saying the Rosary or in other private prayers, yes, it is important to some people. Otherwise, it does not really have a prominent role in the Church, itself. It is not said during the Mass, except perhaps on a Marian Feast Day, though even then it’s very rare. It’s a very old, traditional prayer, but certainly not a part of Catholic Canon.
And, as others have already stated, numerous times, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our King. Therefore, in the Davidic Tradition of the Old Testament, she is the “Queen Mother”, aka the ‘mother of the King’. Catholics did not give her that title. It comes from the tradition of the Old Testament, particularly from King David whose mother was referred to as the “Queen Mother”. People who wanted favors from King David would go to the Queen Mother to ask her to advocate for them. This is the same reason Catholics go to Mary to request favors. Why is that so difficult to understand?
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Gorgias
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Because the Catholic understanding of Mary has always been that she intercedes on our behalf to Jesus.
I’m not quite sure how to react to that question. On one hand, it would seem to be suggesting that matters of doctrine are really simply matters of public opinion. Yet, that doesn’t make any sense – after all, we wouldn’t dream of walking into Church and taking a straw poll of the people there in order to decide the truth of the Real Presence. Why would the doctrine of Mary be a matter of a popular vote, then?
No… I think that what you’re asking is whether I alone say this. The answer, of course, is ‘no’ – in fact, this is what the Church teaches about Mary. And, naturally, since the Church teaches it (being guarded against error by the Holy Spirit), Catholics can have confidence in the teaching.
Well… if that’s the truth, what’s your issue with it? Really, it comes down to your preconceived notions of what Catholics mean when they talk about this. Why would your notions of what it means trump what Catholics mean, when they say this? That’s like saying, “I’m sorry, Catholics – I understand what your doctrine means better than you do, so I can’t take your word for what your own doctrine means”…!
Mary intercedes for us. We live on earth – this vale of tears – and here on earth, we mourn and weep at the trials we face. Therefore, we ask Mary to pray for us, sending up our sighs for relief, praying that she’ll intercede on our behalf before her son. What’s so odd about that?!?
Not “just a queen”, but “precisely a davidic queen”! However, it doesn’t mean “Mary, we say you’re part of the Godhead because you’re a queen”… which seems to be the implication you’re taking from this.
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Isaiah45_9
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She was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
Has it sunk in yet?
Anything less than a Queen to carry the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in her womb for 9 months? And care for Him as an infant, toddler, kid?
That’s always blown my mind.
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AmbroseSJ
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Unfortunately for Evangelicals, who literally have no worship at all, they have a distorted and twisted idea as to what worship actually is. Devotion, love, admiration, etc are not worship.
Worship (no matter which Covenant you speak of, Old or New) was designed by the Lord God Himself, not by mere man. The Old Covenant had a bloody sacrifice which was given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. The New Covenant has the unbloody sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, instituted by Himself at the Last Supper. These are how man has always worshiped the Most High God. Through the agency of Priests (and in the New Covenant, we have the High Priest, Jesus Christ, in the person of the ministerial priest.) Paying homage to venerated Saints or the Virgin Mary is NOTHING like worship to a Christian that knows what WORSHIP really is.
Sorry to be so blunt, but it is CRUCIAL to understand what worship really is. A true Christian has REAL WORSHIP as instituted by God Himself, Jesus Christ. Calling anything and everything a Catholic does as worship betrays a sad lack of understanding.
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dronald
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So how does one worship Mary? Not as God, but as being considered worship?
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Gorgias
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That’s just it: one does not worship Mary! Honor her? Yep. Esteem her highly, even above all other saints? Yep! But worship her? Nope – that’s due to God alone.
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AmbroseSJ
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You’re the one saying that the Hail Holy Queen prayer sounds like worship. Maybe you should be explaining that to us!
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dronald
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To me worship is any type of praise or reverence that is due to God alone. When I praise Jesus and glorify Him, I’m worshiping; that being said, I don’t praise and glorify a human being. I certainly don’t take issue with respect and thanks, but when actions become very high reverence I get a bit nervous.
For example; what did these men do for it to be worship and not reverence?:
Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man. "
Rev 22:8 I , John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant { Greek b fellow bondservant b } with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God. "
Notice these were not being worshiped as God, so what did they do wrong?
Where do we draw the line?
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Telstar
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CATHOLICS NEVER WORSHIP MARY!! SHE IS NOT GOD!! Haven’t you been paying attention? We worship God through the celebration of Holy Mass. THAT is how Catholics WORSHIP GOD! Saying prayers to any Saint, is NOT a form of worship in any way, shape or form, AND IT NEVER HAS BEEN!
What some Protestant and other non-Catholic Christians (particularly evangelicals and non-denominationals) call ‘worship’ (i.e. attending a Sunday church ‘service’ to pray together) is, technically, not what Catholics typically consider to be worship, at all. It is merely a gathering together of Christians in order to study scripture and pray to God as a group. Technically, in my view, that is only a prayer service/Bible study. There is no formal liturgy of worship that is consistently performed in those churches (the exceptions being those like the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc., that still maintain a formal liturgy, like the Mass). So, it is not a true form of Biblical ‘worship’ that has been given to them by God, as it was in the Old Testament Temple ceremonies, or in the New Testament Liturgy of the Mass.
This is not to say that those people are not worshiping God in their own way, but it’s not the same kind of formal worship as those churches that follow a consistent methodology. That’s where all the confusion about Catholic prayer comes from, because when the only form of ‘worship’ people know is for them to participate in a public form of ‘prayer’ service, they assume that all other kinds of prayer must also be considered worship. But, it’s not really a form of worship, at all.
Prayer is a practice of spirituality that brings us all closer to God. There are many different forms of prayer. In Catholicism, spirituality (mysticism) is at the heart of our Christian life, and prayer is our basic means of advancing in that spirituality. Our prayer life is a very important part of our connection to God, so we tend to take it very seriously. To a non-Catholic, it’s a difficult concept to understand, because most non-Catholic denominations don’t delve too deeply into mysticism, nor do they really teach it. Even many Catholics don’t do it much, either. It’s a shame, because nothing can bring us closer, or help us to follow Jesus better, than having a deep mystical relationship with Him. This typically comes through lots of personal prayer.
That’s why it rather irritates me when Catholics are accused of not having a ‘personal relationship with Jesus’. Nothing could be further from the truth, because Catholic spirituality is focused on becoming as close to Jesus as we can possibly get. And, you can’t get any closer to Him than by consuming His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. So, all Catholics have a very deep ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus on that basis, alone, whether other Christians believe it or not. If any Catholic claims they’ve never had a personal relationship with Christ, then I doubt they really understood what the Eucharist is, or what it does for their soul. They had to have gotten a very poor Catholic education, or didn’t really pay attention to any of it, to ever believe that.
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Telstar
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Do you have children? You must certainly have parents. Can you honestly say that parents never praise their children for accomplishing things, or doing something good? When you recognize any other person for achieving their goals, or for doing something considered to be good, are you not praising and glorifying them with your signs of recognition, or congratulations, for their accomplishments? I think you are, whether you specifically call it that or not.
Do you respect the office of President more than that of an ambulance chasing lawyer? Wouldn’t you say that you would have ‘high praise’ for your son if he became President? Would you show more reverence toward a very Christlike minister of your own church, that you believe lives a very good Christian life, than you would for someone that only shows up at church once or twice a year?
There are higher degrees of holiness apparent in some souls that deserve to be recognized, because God has showered those people with much greater gifts, while they have also suffered much more than any of the rest of us, during their lifetime on this earth. The Catholic Church recognizes those souls as Saints for good reason. It is not to take anything away from God, but to recognize that He is the only reason that they have reached such spiritual heights. He made them who they are through His Sanctifying Grace. We acknowledge His glorifying work in them, which in turn glorifies Him, even more. God not only allows us to honor those people who have done His will to such a high degree of perfection, He delights in it, because it gives Him Glory. He’s a very proud Father of all His children, and He loves it when we also recognize our older brothers and sisters, who have done so well.
Both of those examples show someone actually falling prostrate (an act of worship) before a creature of God. That’s why Peter and the Angel corrected the person that prostrated themselves in front of them. They both recognized this as an act of worship that’s due to God, alone.
They were prostrating themselves, which is a universally recognized form of worshiping God, known by everyone of the Jewish, or Christian, faith. That’s where both of those men were wrong, because we should only prostrate ourselves before God. That’s also where we should all draw the line. We must never show a sign of worship, that is only due to God, to any mere creature. But, as I said before, prayer is not really a form of worship.
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schaeffer
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Uh oh, Gotta step up because THIS is where I got “confused”.
When I was in grammar school we had an annual May Crowning. Life sized statue of the virgin, crown of flowers, singing and prayers, and then culminating in the priests throwing themselves face down, arms straight out onto the floor in front of the statue and saying this prayer.
My Queen, My Mother, I give
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.
I was assured that this in no way was worship (understandably, as a child it appeared rather like illustrations of what we were told was people worshiping false idols)
I am not accusing Catholics of worshiping Mary. I am told it is impossible to do so. Literally impossible. Yet I have heard Catholics refer to such behavior as worship when others engage in it. That, I believe, is where the confusion comes in.
Or is there Worship, with a capital W meaning worship to God alone, and worship meaning expressing exceptional devotion and love to someone/something?
It was not the prayer alone, but the full body, face touching the floor prostration that led to the confusion.
I only bring this up as in the quotes above the act of prostration was considered worship and was reprimanded.
I understand dulia, hyperdulia, latria. I am simply trying to reconcile the prostrating oneself and if indeed that is considered worship, or was Peter discouraging veneration as he had not yet attained heaven?
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dronald
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Sure. I’ve been quite clear that I understand Catholics in their hearts aren’t worshiping any creature so then to me they’re not.
But what I asked was how one could worship Mary? Where would the line be. That’s not to say worship her as God or a god, but rather to worship her as the act of worship towards a person?
Is prostration the line?
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dronald
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Again, I have no issue thanking Mary for what she’s done. Or saying I love her, or admitting she’s done great things; but I think the next poster gave a great example… I couldn’t say all that to anyone. Could you?
As for prostration, that’s where one draws the line? Okay. So you can say whatever praise and prayer but as long as you don’t prostrate it’s not worship?
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Telstar
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To tell you the truth, I’m as confused by that whole scenario as you are! While I have no real problem with the prayer, or with the practice of devoting oneself to Mary, but, I do have a bit of a problem with the actions of the Priests. They do seem to be more than a little bizarre to me. I suppose I have to ask, what time period are we talking about, here? I know that during the 70s and 80s there was a wide variety of ‘free spirit’ interpretations of what was considered to be appropriate practices in the Church, in the aftermath of the Vat II changes (mostly due to gross misinterpretations of what some of those changes really meant). But, I have never heard of that particular ceremony, before.
Typically, during the month of May, there are many special ceremonies connected with Mary, because the whole month is dedicated to her. I know there are some that include her crowning as Queen of Heaven, but I don’t recall any being quite as extreme as that one. But, your description of it even made me uncomfortable. Some cultures often have different traditions and ways of expressing their Catholic Faith, so it’s possible this might have been a normal one for that particular church, but it sure sounds a bit over the top to me. So, I don’t really know how to respond to that one.
I suppose it’s possible that there might be a distinction made like that, if it would help some people understand it better, but I’d be afraid it would likely just cause more confusion. Even though, people don’t seem to be confused by the difference between using the term God, as opposed to god. They do tend to understand that distinction, at least for the most part. Right?
I completely understand, because that was the only part that bothered me. The prayer didn’t really bother me much at all.
At the time of the Apostles, prostrating oneself was a clear sign of adoration, which was usually only done as an act of worshiping God and pleading for His help. It’s possible that the Romans also used it in a similar sense, but perhaps only in the presence of Caesar, as a sign of submission to his authority. In the case of the Centurion bowing before Peter, this could be the case, but instead he was offering his submission to Peter’s authority. Peter, being the humble man that he was, would naturally resist this blatant sign of devotion, and correct him. In the case of John, I think it’s possible that anyone seeing an Angel of that magnitude would be inspired to have the same kind of reaction. I’ve never seen an angel, but I might be inclined to do that, too. But, once again, that’s the kind of act that should only be reserved for God, at least IMHO.
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mlz
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mlz
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Agree!
mlz
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mlz
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You have made a good point something I never could see before but do now. This is why I can say that coming into the Catholic church I came into the “fullness” of my Christian faith- praise be to God!Your problem is not really with the Virgin Mary. It is with Sanctifying Grace. You are unable to wrap your head around the fact that by the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus, we have not only been saved and justified, but we have also been given the ABILITY to MERIT further Grace. This doctrine is taught by St. Paul in his letters. We have been GIVEN GRACE to MERIT still more Grace. This is the whole foundation of Mariology.
That is why abandoning the Catholic Church, which is the high road to Sanctifying Grace through the Sacraments, is so fatal. Everyone, rich or poor, smart or foolish, brilliant or dull, saint or sinner are all welcome at the abundant source of Sanctifying grace. But through lack of Faith, and erroneous doctrines, poor souls are being led away from the Church of Salvation.
Blessings,
mlz
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Telstar
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I’m still not really sure what you mean by your question. Since Catholics really have no desire to worship Mary (as they worship God, or ‘as a person’), I have no clue how they would go about doing that, if they suddenly changed their minds. We already show her as much love and devotion as possible, without worshiping her as we do God, so I don’t think it’s even worth considering going beyond that point. Why would you even ask us how we could do it? How would you suggest we do it?
Should we create a new kind of Church ritual, that’s just devoted to worshiping Mary, without any mention of God? That would be absolutely ludicrous, because Mary would be nothing without God. She’d be just another Jewish woman in history, that almost no one would even remember after she was gone. She owes all of her power and glory to God, Who offered her the chance to become the Mother of Jesus. All of her magnificent titles would never exist, without God. Trying to separate Mary from God, would be like trying to separate Jesus from His Humanity. It can’t be done. They are inseparable, because she said, “yes”, to God. She’s the daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mother of the Son. She carried Jesus in her womb, and dedicated her entire existence to always doing God’s will, and she still does that, even today. That’s what makes her so special to us. Other than that, she would be no different than any of us.
I already responded to his post. Like I said, I really don’t have much of a problem with the prayer, but the Priests falling down prostrate on the ground in front of the statue is certainly concerning, at least in my view. Some people can tend to get carried away with their devotions, like the ones in the Philippines that have themselves nailed to a cross during Holy week. Those types of devotions are rarely approved by the Church, but some people do them, anyway. Is this particular ceremony one that’s been part of someone’s cultural tradition for many years? I have no clue. It’s possible. Does that mean that we all must accept it, or participate in it? Nope. They are only considered to be private devotions, and we can take it or leave it, to choose for ourselves. Even praying the Rosary is something we are not obligated to do. It’s just another personal form of devotional prayer (which just so happens to be a very powerful one).
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specklebean9
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I love this. Very wise.Your problem is not really with the Virgin Mary. It is with Sanctifying Grace. You are unable to wrap your head around the fact that by the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus, we have not only been saved and justified, but we have also been given the ABILITY to MERIT further Grace. This doctrine is taught by St. Paul in his letters. We have been GIVEN GRACE to MERIT still more Grace. This is the whole foundation of Mariology.
That is why abandoning the Catholic Church, which is the high road to Sanctifying Grace through the Sacraments, is so fatal. Everyone, rich or poor, smart or foolish, brilliant or dull, saint or sinner are all welcome at the abundant source of Sanctifying grace. But through lack of Faith, and erroneous doctrines, poor souls are being led away from the Church of Salvation.
I had an experience many years ago where I had to intercede for my son who was 9 years old at the time. I carried prayers for him everyday in my heart and for 40 days I cried and prayed to the Lord. A miracle was given me and my son at the end of those 40 days and the Lord spoke into my heart “Now you have some understanding of what my Mother carried in her heart”.
I have to say that the experience opened a door for that Sanctifying Grace of which you speak.
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