Hail Holy Queen......

[MaggieOH]

ahimsaman72:

A poster recently pointed out to me the “law of contradiction”. “X” cannot be both “X” and “Y” at the same time. It is either “X” or it is “Y”. Curious as to your reaction to this.

Peace…

To say that it is either X or Y when it comes to Scripture is using what we call a false dichotomy. We do not read Scripture as either/or in the literal sense, and the same is true for each of the senses of Scripture.

You are attempting to use contradiction as a means of subterfuge in order to avoid answering the questions.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

thirsty4uolord:

Ahim;

Bless You And Christ Be With You !

Was not Mary chosen above all women of the world by God ?
Was Mary concieved by the Holy Spirt ?

:tiphat:

Correction: Mary was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary was conceived in the ordinary way but God gave Her special favours (grace) so that she fulfilled the Scripture see Gen 3:14-15

Maggie

 

[Church_Militant]

Philthy:

Some believe “the woman” in that verse is Israel, and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes…

Phil

This passage has problems because the person who made the chapter and verse divisions (which are NOT part of the inspired text) cose to break chapters 11 and 12 where he did, but if you read the last few verses of Rev 11 and then 12 w/o the break the whole meaning changes… However the description of the woman as the one whose other children give testimony of Jesus nakes it even more clear that it is Mary he’s describing. One has to remember that Revelations is NOT ALL prophecy. Some of it is merely John’s visions relative to the churches that he names of that time. This is one reason Revelation is so dificult to get a good grip on. Some things are prophetic and some things are not, because some of it is a retelling of Christian history to that date.

The most compelling point is still Mary’s positions as “Giberah” and if Jesus is a spiritual king, why would not His mother be a spiritual queen as clearly implied by NT scripture? This was the same as for all the Davidic kings of Israel…the very one that Jesus whose line Jesus is from. (THROUGH MARY…no less)

I would say that if Catholics seem to make overmuch of Mary, that non-Catholics make far far too little of her, though having gone deeply into this Marian teaching, I would say that the Catholic Church is correct.

IMO, far too many people treat the Blessed Virgin as if God just got up one day, yawned, and then just randomly picked some little Jewish chick to be the mother of His son. That just defies the nature of the God I’ve met in the Bible.

One thing that I noted above somewhere that is blatantly NOT a Catholic Teaching is that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, which is a common misunderstanding of the term Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was conceived already cleansed of original sin by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. (Even she says by the Holy Spirit that she “rejoices in God my savior”) This is a very simple and logical thing for God to do in order that His son not inherit original sin from His mother’s human nature. (Remember that all things are possible with God.) This is one reason that we talk about Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant…because she was. BTW…that crack back there about her being carried around like the first Ark was just obtusely lame to point of nearly being insulting.)

Mary’s intercession for us in no way diminshes God, anymore than your praying for a Christian friend would diminish God. Intercessory prayer is something that all Christisns are called to. I have great difficulty believing that teh “great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 is just there as passive observers (??). That idea just makes no sense whatever in the context of all the talk the NT does about all of us being one body in Christ.

I hope this help clear up some of the problems some of you are having.
Pax vobiscum.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MaggieOH:

AAHHH… you only practise your faith on a Sunday? What about the other days of the week?
I practise my faith every day, not just Sunday. Now tell me where is truth?

As for by the time it reaches us, well considering the way that some Baptist preachers synthesise the Gospel message, by picking and choosing their favourite verses, leaving out Books of the Bible that do not agree with them…no I wonder who has the fullness of Truth.

AHHHH…you assumed that. I didn’t say that. I was p(name removed by moderator)ointing a place in time. You show your bias and assumptions.

Peace be with you and hope you stick around to enlighten us.

 

[johnq]

ahimsaman72:

A poster recently pointed out to me the “law of contradiction”. “X” cannot be both “X” and “Y” at the same time. It is either “X” or it is “Y”. Curious as to your reaction to this.

Peace…

ahimsaman72 :tiphat:

To accept this as a basis of all truth would mean the Trinity is false. :bigyikes:

John.14

9] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’?

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you forever.

When the apostles saw Jesus they also saw the Father. Here is a divine example that X and Y can be both at the same time. :clapping:

Verse 16 shows us that Jesus is also the Paraclete, which is another word for the Holy Spirit.

This is why Catholics can see in scripture that Mary is both Mother and Queen. :yup:

Curious to your reaction to this.

Peace brother!

God

 

[Church_Militant]

Philthy:

Some believe “the woman” in that verse is Israel, and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes…

Phil

Yeah, but I don’t see that from all the context and the fact that the chapter break from 11 to 12 seems to be in such an arbitrary place. Ya goota remember that the verse numbers and chapter breaks are NOT inspired since they weren’t in the original. (Duh, right?)

 

[Wildgraywolf]

ahimsaman72:

A poster recently pointed out to me the “law of contradiction”. “X” cannot be both “X” and “Y” at the same time. It is either “X” or it is “Y”. Curious as to your reaction to this.

Peace…

How’s this to stray further from the topic…

Quantum mechanics tells us that a system can behave as a particle or a wave, depending on how we, the observer, choose to measure this behavior. Meaning that both “X” and “Y” are exactly the same with the difference being how you are looking at it.

Well, so much for contridiction anyone in the mood for paradox?

 

[Philthy]

ahimsaman72:

Scripture holds all truth necessary for salvation. There’s not one iota of information needed outside of Scripture to be right with God. Scripture shows nothing of the kind about Mary being crowned.

Peace…

Says who?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

ahimsaman72:

From Matthew Henry’s Commentary:

…Here we see that early prophecy eminently fulfilled in which God said he would put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, Gen. iii. 15. You will observe,

I. The attempts of Satan and his agents to prevent the increase of the church, by devouring her offspring as soon as it was born; of this we have a very lively description in the most proper images.

1. We see how the church is represented in this vision. (1.) As a woman, the weaker part of the world, but the spouse of Christ, and the mother of the saints. (2.) As clothed with the sun, the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having put on Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, she, by her relation to Christ, is invested with honourable rights and privileges, and shines in his rays. (3.) As having the moon under her feet (that is, the world); she stands upon it, but lives above it; her heart and hope are not set upon sublunary things, but on the things that are in heaven, where her head is. (4.) As having on her head a crown of twelve stars, that is, the doctrine of the gospel preached by the twelve apostles, which is a crown of glory to all true believers. (5.) As in travail, crying out, and pained to be delivered. She was pregnant, and now in pain to bring forth a holy progeny to Christ, desirous that what was begun in the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion, that when the children were brought to the birth there might be strength to bring forth, and that she might see of the travail of her soul.
2. How the grand enemy of the church is represented. (1.) As a great red dragon–a dragon for strength and terror–a red dragon for fierceness and cruelty. (2.) As having seven heads, that is, placed on seven hills, as Rome was; and therefore it is probable that pagan Rome is here meant. (3.) As having ten horns, divided into ten provinces, as the Roman empire was by Augustus Cæsar. (4.) As having seven crowns upon his head, which is afterwards expounded to be seven kings, ch. xvii. 10. (5.) As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth, turning the ministers and professors of the Christian religion out of their places and privileges and making them as weak and useless as he could. (6.) As standing before the woman, to devour her child as soon as it should be born, very vigilant to crush the Christian religion in its birth and entirely to prevent the growth and continuance of it in the world."

We could do this all day long if you want. You provide 10 posts from a Catholic source and I provide 10 posts from a Protestant source. That’s not really helpful.

I would rather see chunk by chunk. There’s no way one can have dialogue with such a collection of information. I’m assuming that dialogue was not your intent. The intent was to create a platform to blast your views and leave it hopelessly in the hands of the recipients to painstakingly disprove your thesis point by point. Not going to happen.

Peace…

Actually there’s a tremendous difference: the quotes from CatholicTom’s sources stretch back to the first century and are all from saints/ECFs. All you have provided is the opinion of an unidentified source from an uidentified point in history. This is not to say that your source does not make a reasonable, logical analysis of the info, it’s just that there is nothing more to it than that. And since the conclusions reached are not absolutes, we stand no closer to understanding reality than when we started. If you’re looking for “hard proof” in the form of specific Bible verses to logically justify Mary’s position, give it up. Just like every other topic that gets left to one’s own interpretation of the bible you will have your own take on what Mary does or doesn’t mean. History,however, supports the Catholic position. Scripture can be shown to be consistent with the Catholic position. Even logic can support the Catholic position. You can claim logic to support your position also, and can interpret Scripture to support your view as well. But History becomes the tie breaker, and on that consideration your position crumbles.

Phil

 

[Mary3]

Philthy:

History,however, supports the Catholic position. Scripture can be shown to be consistent with the Catholic position. Even logic can support the Catholic position. You can claim logic to support your position also, and can interpret Scripture to support your view as well. But History becomes the tie breaker, and on that consideration your position crumbles.

Phil

 

[ahimsaman72]

Wildgraywolf:

How’s this to stray further from the topic…

Quantum mechanics tells us that a system can behave as a particle or a wave, depending on how we, the observer, choose to measure this behavior. Meaning that both “X” and “Y” are exactly the same with the difference being how you are looking at it.

Well, so much for contridiction anyone in the mood for paradox?

Okay, take this reasoning to the “Buddha and his teachings” thread I started in the non-Catholic forum. I’m with you. Someone there is reasoning with the law of non-contradiction. I am arguing that the law of non-contradiction is arguable.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

johnq:

ahimsaman72 :tiphat:

To accept this as a basis of all truth would mean the Trinity is false. :bigyikes:

Peace brother!

God

Thank you. So, now take that information to the “Buddha and his teachings” thread I started in the non-Catholic forum. I’m arguing that the law of non-contradiction is false when deciphering all truth. I’ve seen a website that uses this law to refute the Trinity.

Peace…

 

[reggie]

Hail Holy Queen - debated ad nauseum, Catholics accept this because our earthly mother the Church says it is so. We accept the Church’s teachings, not out of blind obedience, but with faith in Jesus and His words to Peter and the Apostles.

Mother of Mercy - Jesus is Mercy, Mary is His mother,

Our life - It was through Mary’s fiat that Jesus was born, It is through Jesus that we have life, Mary is our mother also, through her we have life.

Our sweetness - Webster’s dictionary - Sweet - A beloved or dear person. Mary is certainly that to Catholics

Our hope - Mary is the first recipient of Jesus’ grace. She is the hope of all generations of the things to come. We can look to her as an example of what awaits us in the Heavenly Kingdom.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve - As children of Eve, we are banished but as children of Mary, we are part of the kingdom of God.

To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears - As with all children, it is to our mother we take our hurts. We count on her to be our intecessor to our angry father and our defender in all things. That is not to say that God is not merciful or that we can not go directly to Him with our sorrows, it simply means that we turn to her at times, but she always leads us to Jesus.

Turn then most gracious advocate - Catholics believe in the communion of saints, that all who have gone before us can and do pray for us, as advocates, not THE ADVOCATE,

Thine eyes of mercy towards us - Jesus is Mary’s son, He is Mercy. Just as at the wedding of Cana, Mary brought to Jesus’ attention the plight of the host, we ask her to bring our needs to His attention. To turn His eyes toward us.

After this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus - Mary’s life leads us to Jesus, she does so now from heaven. May we be greeted by all who went before us and may Mary the first of believers be there as well.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary - Merely words of honor

Pray for us O holy Mother of God - another petition for intercession.

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ - another petition, mostly in regards to purgatory, wherein we are cleansed of all sin and then, purified, we may take our place at the heavenly table.

This prayer is distinctly Catholic. One must believe in the Marian doctrines. You will never be able to explain it to a non-Catholic in such a way that they will not think it blasphemous.

 

[reggie]

Now as to the rest of the debate. Is Mary indeed worthy of the honor and attention given to her by Catholics or are we blasphemous in our devotions to her? It is true that the Bible says very little directly about her, but early Christians had a great deal to say. In the catacombs of Rome, there are pictures of her on the walls. It is obvious that she was central to the story of Jesus and was understood by them to be a person of great holiness and deserving of respect. She was the first disciple and in her fiat, and throughout her life, shows us the way to be a disciple. IMO, most protestants are uncomfortable elevating her in any way. We are all equal in the eyes of God. We were all made by Him and for Him, but it is a FACT that she was chosen by God to carry The Word. She was not a mere vessel, Jesus has her human DNA. He was* conceived*by the Holy Spirit, not created from nothing and placed in her womb… Now, did God grant her certain graces for this? We believe He must have because the Ark of the OT carried the word of God in the form of the Ten Commandments, and it had to be pure and untouched. John says in his Gospel that Jesus is the Word, therefore the Ark that held him must have also been pure and untouched. Just as we are saved through the grace of Jesus, so was Mary, but she was saved before birth and we are saved after baptism. Mary was given what she needed to carry out the will of God, as are we all. However, because of free will, we don’t always use the gifts God gives us to do that. Mary did and suffered great pains for it. Now, God could have just set Jesus down in the world, fully formed and ready to carry out His mission. Why didn’t He? Because it was important that Jesus be human as well as divine. As the church teaches, Jesus shares with us our humanity so that we may one day share in His divinity.
Where Mary is, we strive to be. Our devotion to her does not in any way detract from God, Jesus or the HOly Spirit, in fact, it leads us ever closer, as we know through Mary what is to come for us all.

 

[john_doran]

Wildgraywolf:

How’s this to stray further from the topic…

Quantum mechanics tells us that a system can behave as a particle or a wave, depending on how we, the observer, choose to measure this behavior. Meaning that both “X” and “Y” are exactly the same with the difference being how you are looking at it.

i’m afraid this isn’t right, even by your own description: a system behaves either like a particle or like a wave, but not both at the same time and in the same respect.

if you buy into the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, then what you’re calling a quantum mechanical “system” is actually neither particle nor a wave, but only a wave function that is collapsed upon observation. but when it is collapsed, it is collapsed into a “system” with definite and distinct properties.

 

[john_doran]

Wildgraywolf:

How’s this to stray further from the topic…

Quantum mechanics tells us that a system can behave as a particle or a wave, depending on how we, the observer, choose to measure this behavior. Meaning that both “X” and “Y” are exactly the same with the difference being how you are looking at it.

i’m afraid this isn’t right, even by your own description: a system behaves either like a particle or like a wave, but not both at the same time and in the same respect.

if you buy into the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, then what you’re calling a quantum mechanical “system” is actually neither particle nor a wave, but only a wave function that is collapsed upon observation. but when it is collapsed, it is collapsed into a “system” with definite and distinct properties.

 

[MaggieOH]

ahimsaman72:

AHHHH…you assumed that. I didn’t say that. I was p(name removed by moderator)ointing a place in time. You show your bias and assumptions.

Peace be with you and hope you stick around to enlighten us.

Wrong. You said that you go to worship services on Sunday, and I asked why only on a Sunday. The bias remains with you.

So far you have not provided anything in the way of a logical or reasoned argument for your position and you show that you are afraid to see the point of view of others. It seems that the only opinion that you accept is your own.

Maggie

 

[thirsty4uolord]

Bless All And Christ Be With You
:tsktsk:
You guys sound a little silly here , discussing the ways of God using Physics.
Have you not received his word about such things ?
How can we ever profess to know or understand the way of God ?
The wise will be made foolish.
Consider this ; The Lord , The Son , and The Spirit are neither x or y or any thing science has identified or will identify ever , but the Lord is Himself , has once said ( " I’AM " ).

Listen to your hearts and answers will not be necessary .
Oh yea, you forgot Ferrat .

john doran:

i’m afraid this isn’t right, even by your own description: a system behaves either like a particle or like a wave, but not both at the same time and in the same respect.

if you buy into the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, then what you’re calling a quantum mechanical “system” is actually neither particle nor a wave, but only a wave function that is collapsed upon observation. but when it is collapsed, it is collapsed into a “system” with definite and distinct properties.

 

[Solo_Christo]

Hey guys I thought it would be interesting to read about the people who were practicing pagaism and worshiping a “queen of heaven”.

Turn to Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44 and read about there idoloatry.

God bless, and keep posting this is a really interesting topic.

 

[john_doran]

Solo Christo:

Hey guys I thought it would be interesting to read about the people who were practicing pagaism and worshiping a “queen of heaven”.

Turn to Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44 and read about there idoloatry.

God bless, and keep posting this is a really interesting topic.

catholics don’t worship mary.