Hail Holy Queen......

[MaggieOH]

Christ's friend:

I am glad you came up with that, and Jer teaches not to pray to any queen of heaven and I am glad you converted you beliefs.

Astarte never existed in the real world. Mary is the Mother of the King of kings. It is a dignity that is reserved for the mother of the King to be queen. Since Jesus reigns in Heaven as King of kings, he reigns with the Woman who is His mother. The Church is not the Mother of Jesus. That role belongs to Mary.

I hope you understand that you do need to go do some reading of the Scripture.

Maggie

 

[rheins2000]

MaggieOH:

the same as we do when we ask Billy down the street to pray for us to God for a special intention.

MaggieOH

That Billy, he really is a good kid. Kudos to him. I like him.

 

[RehLlits]

Starting with TNT,

God did not keep that spot for someone (queen of heaven) He said there is not spot like that, and that only He should be worshiped. Your trying to get around that fact that God hated the worship of a queen of heaven.

Now Maggie,

Maggie I really do not like debating with you because I believe you logic and your points are ridiculous but I am forced too because you have accused me of some nasty things.

There is no relationship between the role of Mary as the Mother of the King of kings and that of an idol that did not exist.

There is a big relationship; they were praying to her. As far as I know Catholics still pray to Mary. Jer said not to pray to her and that it was evil in the sight of God.

As far as your amazing display of knowledge in the questions you wrote. I do not see any point in answering any of them. They all talk about a queen who had a king. But who gave authority to the queen? Was it not the king? Did God give authority for there to be a queen in Jer chapters 7 and 44? I believe the answer to be no.

As far as asking someone to pray for you. In the inspired Text I see plenty of examples where people ask other people to pray for them. I am not against that. What I do not see in inspired Scripture is examples when people ask dead (or even if they were in heaven and never suffered death) people to pray for them. So I am against asking Mary or any other saint to pray for us.

As far as praying to Mary directly. Jer makes it clear that it is a sign of worship to pray to any other god besides the living God. So I am against praying to saints or Mary for that reason. Unless you can prove to me God did not really see the prayers to the queen of heaven (who is false) as worship.

The meaning of prayer is to talk to God. I do not pray with my dad when we are discussing what happened that day. Prayer is not always requests; I actually believe for prayer to be more thanking and less asking, but we all have needs.

This is where logically our friend has slipped up in what he is saying. You see, he has contradicted himself by acknowling that asking for people’s prayers is not a sin. Correct. Catholics ask the saints for prayers to God on our behalf, the same as we do when we ask Billy down the street to pray for us to God for a special intention.

I have not contradicted myself. Asking for living peoples prayers is encouraged in the inspired Text. Show me now where it is encouraged to ask dead (or assumed) people to pray for you in inspired Text.

I hope you understand that you do need to go do some reading of the Scripture.

I do need to keep reading inspired Text but not for the reason you imply so please stop with your embarrassing comments. By my judgment you know so little inspired Scripture and tell others to read when you yourself are misread. I do not mean to sound offensive but you have already proven that on several different topics on which you have posted against me. So please take your own advice. If you can prove to me that you do not need it then please provide the inspired Text I am asking for.

God bless you all.

 

[reggie]

When the Transfigured Jesus appeared to Peter, James and John, He wasn’t alone. Moses and Elijah were with Him. Now although nothing was said about it further, we can infer from that passage that Moses and Elijah were with Jesus in heaven body and soul. Why then would we believe anything less about His mother? Also, when the Apostles saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah they immediately wanted to build a dwelling or tent for each of them. What would they have done in those tents? Weren’t tents used as places to worship, pray or offer sacrifice? Jesus did not rebuke them for wanting to honor Moses and Elijah. Why then would He be angered by honor shown His mother? Jesus was shown in all His Glory and God spoke saying “This is my beloved Son, Listen to Him.” God used Moses and Elijah to show the Apostles that Jesus is indeed His Son because they were prophets to whom all Jews could relate.

A further point in regards to asking for the intercession and help from Mary and other saints. Jesus told his disciples that they would do all that He had done and greater. Why would that ability stop just because they have left this, a world with limits, and are now in heaven, a place with no limits? We do not detract from God in any way through prayer and devotion to Mary and other saints.In fact we honor and worship Him even more. They are His children and what parent isn’t thrilled when others praise their children?

We Catholics understand the unbroken connection between us here on earth and those who have passed over to heaven. We know that there is only One True God just as we know there is only One Son and One Spirit. Everything we do is with an eye to eternity, which we hope to spend in the presence of God; sitting, at last, with the saints from all ages at the heavenly banquet.

 

[MaggieOH]

RehLlits:

Starting with TNT,

God did not keep that spot for someone (queen of heaven) He said there is not spot like that, and that only He should be worshiped. Your trying to get around that fact that God hated the worship of a queen of heaven.

Now Maggie,

Maggie I really do not like debating with you because I believe you logic and your points are ridiculous but I am forced too because you have accused me of some nasty things.

There is a big relationship; they were praying to her. As far as I know Catholics still pray to Mary. Jer said not to pray to her and that it was evil in the sight of God.

As far as your amazing display of knowledge in the questions you wrote. I do not see any point in answering any of them. They all talk about a queen who had a king. But who gave authority to the queen? Was it not the king? Did God give authority for there to be a queen in Jer chapters 7 and 44? I believe the answer to be no.

As far as asking someone to pray for you. In the inspired Text I see plenty of examples where people ask other people to pray for them. I am not against that. What I do not see in inspired Scripture is examples when people ask dead (or even if they were in heaven and never suffered death) people to pray for them. So I am against asking Mary or any other saint to pray for us.

As far as praying to Mary directly. Jer makes it clear that it is a sign of worship to pray to any other god besides the living God. So I am against praying to saints or Mary for that reason. Unless you can prove to me God did not really see the prayers to the queen of heaven (who is false) as worship.

The meaning of prayer is to talk to God. I do not pray with my dad when we are discussing what happened that day. Prayer is not always requests; I actually believe for prayer to be more thanking and less asking, but we all have needs.

I have not contradicted myself. Asking for living peoples prayers is encouraged in the inspired Text. Show me now where it is encouraged to ask dead (or assumed) people to pray for you in inspired Text.
I do need to keep reading inspired Text but not for the reason you imply so please stop with your embarrassing comments. By my judgment you know so little inspired Scripture and tell others to read when you yourself are misread. I do not mean to sound offensive but you have already proven that on several different topics on which you have posted against me. So please take your own advice. If you can prove to me that you do not need it then please provide the inspired Text I am asking for.

God bless you all.

It is obvious to me that the exegesis that you follow is fundamentally flawed. It is flawed because there is a stumbling block in the line of thinking that everything that has some sort of association with a pagan past is bad. It would seem that even when someone is presented with Scriptural proof regarding the fact that it is the mother of the king who is the queen and not the wife is considered to be irrelevant.

I presented the questions to Christ’s Friend. However, you have betrayed yourself again my friend and for this I will be seeking moderator help to find out exactly who you might be and if you are the same person that has been posting under other names then I will see that you are removed from the forum.

Maggie

 

[Xavier]

Catholic Tom:

I have a protestant friend who feels that this prayer is Blasphemous. I will attempt to explain it though it may prove fruitless, I’ll do my best charitably. Can anyone help me out?

Idolitress yes, blasphemous no.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Idolitress yes, blasphemous no.

prove the idolatry involved. Again. If you want to talk about accusations of idolatry then do so by starting your own thread.

MaggieOH

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

prove the idolatry involved. Again. If you want to talk about accusations of idolatry then do so by starting your own thread.

MaggieOH

But this is a clear example.
ANYTHING you place before or above God is an idol it can be a person, place or thing.
You place mary before God when you go to her instead of Him. Jesus taught us how to pray., you have chosen to decide what is right in your own eyes.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ahimsaman72:

It’s not hard to believe - it’s that there’s no evidence to support what you are claiming. You still - to date - have not shown anything but philosophical persuasion to validate your position. “It is because it makes sense” or “It is because I say it is” is not enough.

My mindset is not as you say. God chose Mary to be the mother and caregiver for his son. Mary was favored among women. This is all Biblical and verifiable. She was obviously a special person.

How did she go from being “favored among women” to Queen status? That’s what I’m getting at here. And you haven’t shown me anything bridges that gap.

If any person in the line of David would have faltered. If they would have died without producing seed - you would have no King of Israel. Do you understand this? So, it is not only Mary that cooperated with God’s will. It was the many people through the ages that cooperated - knowingly or not.

If for instance, my parents would have never met, married and had me - my kids would not be alive today. My “seed” would not have gone forth. Perhaps I could’ve chosen the life of a monk and chose celibacy. My children in that respect could’ve never arrived here. There are many things that had to take place for God’s will to come to fruition.

Somehow, Mary was chosen. That was part of God’s plan. She consented - as did every other person that God called to faith - Moses, Elijah, Joseph, Abraham - on down the line. But you don’t see those men given the kind of status that Mary has. Why?

Peace…

I will only address your first statement Christians live on Faith not evidence.God Bless

 

[oudave]

*Hail, holy Queen, *
Gabriel used the word hail to address Mary. If Jesus is our King, then his Mother is our queen. The Queen Mother is always seen in relation to the King.

Mother of mercy,
She is the Mother of CHrist who is our mercy. Therefore, nothing wrong with this statement either.

*hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. *
same as above.

*To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: *
Mary is the new Eve. This symbolizes her relation to the new Adam, Christ. As Eve brought forth the fruit of the tree to Adam who took and sinned, thus responsible for the fall, so Mary brought forth CHrist, the Incarnate Logos who was responsible for redemption.

*to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. *
This brings to mind the wedding at Cana where the hosts of the wedding went to Mary (notice they didn’t go to Jesus with their problem).
Mary goes then to Jesus, knowing that no Son would say no to His Mother. Mary is our advocate in that as we are the hosts of the wedding who have run out of wine, we ask Mary to be our advocate to Jesus, to fix that, in our lives, that we are unable to fix.
yes, the language is beautiful and poetic, but let’s remember we’re talking about Mom here! and who doesn’t love their Mother enough to use such beautiful language.

The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous here at all.

I thought a King and Queen were married. If Mary is the Queen then wouldnt that make Jesus a Prince? Just a thought.

Is Jesus being looked at as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve a catholic thing, because I thought Adam and Eve were like, Husband and Wife. I’m not trying to make fun of it, just trying to see the comparison.

I dont see anywhere in scripture where it says that the Hosts of the wedding went to Mary and ask her to see if Jesus could get or make them some wine. What Bible are you reading this from?
I even find it kind of strange that Jesus calls her ‘‘Woman’’ instead of ‘‘Mother’’. Then I also noticed that Mary tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells tham to do. I see nothing in this scripture that points to Mary as there advocate or ours.
In Him, Dave.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

I dont see anywhere in scripture where it says that the Hosts of the wedding went to Mary and ask her to see if Jesus could get or make them some wine. What Bible are you reading this from?
I even find it kind of strange that Jesus calls her ‘‘Woman’’ instead of ‘‘Mother’’. Then I also noticed that Mary tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells tham to do. I see nothing in this scripture that points to Mary as there advocate or ours.
In Him, Dave.

Oudave he calls her woman to fulfill the prophecy in Genesis,when satan get busted tricking Adam and Eve.God said to satan I will put emnity between you and the Woman between your seed and her seed,now read on Oudave Christ just gave His first clue that He was the One.The servants went to Mary and told Jesus they were out of wine,that is interceding.Of course Mary says do what whatever He tells you,she intercedes and she always points to her Son.God Bless
PS Notice God said emnity between you and the Woman the devil hates Mary,noticed how she has been belittled and maligned since the reformation.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

*Hail, holy Queen, *

Gabriel used the word hail to address Mary. If Jesus is our King, then his Mother is our queen. The Queen Mother is always seen in relation to the King.

Mother of mercy,
She is the Mother of CHrist who is our mercy. Therefore, nothing wrong with this statement either.

*hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. *
same as above.

*To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: *
Mary is the new Eve. This symbolizes her relation to the new Adam, Christ. As Eve brought forth the fruit of the tree to Adam who took and sinned, thus responsible for the fall, so Mary brought forth CHrist, the Incarnate Logos who was responsible for redemption.

*to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. *
This brings to mind the wedding at Cana where the hosts of the wedding went to Mary (notice they didn’t go to Jesus with their problem).
Mary goes then to Jesus, knowing that no Son would say no to His Mother. Mary is our advocate in that as we are the hosts of the wedding who have run out of wine, we ask Mary to be our advocate to Jesus, to fix that, in our lives, that we are unable to fix.
yes, the language is beautiful and poetic, but let’s remember we’re talking about Mom here! and who doesn’t love their Mother enough to use such beautiful language.

The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous here at all.

I thought a King and Queen were married. If Mary is the Queen then wouldnt that make Jesus a Prince? Just a thought.

Is Jesus being looked at as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve a catholic thing, because I thought Adam and Eve were like, Husband and Wife. I’m not trying to make fun of it, just trying to see the comparison.

I dont see anywhere in scripture where it says that the Hosts of the wedding went to Mary and ask her to see if Jesus could get or make them some wine. What Bible are you reading this from?
I even find it kind of strange that Jesus calls her ‘‘Woman’’ instead of ‘‘Mother’’. Then I also noticed that Mary tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells tham to do. I see nothing in this scripture that points to Mary as there advocate or ours.
In Him, Dave.Look in the old Testament and the Queen Mothers

 

[oudave]

Lisa4Catholics:

Oudave he calls her woman to fulfill the prophecy in Genesis,when satan get busted tricking Adam and Eve.God said to satan I will put emnity between you and the Woman between your seed and her seed,now read on Oudave Christ just gave His first clue that He was the One.The servants went to Mary and told Jesus they were out of wine,that is interceding.Of course Mary says do what whatever He tells you,she intercedes and she always points to her Son.God Bless
PS Notice God said emnity between you and the Woman the devil hates Mary,noticed how she has been belittled and maligned since the reformation.

You still didnt answer my question on where does it say that the host’s went to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus for some wine.
In Him,Dave.

 

[kepha1]

From Genesis to Revelation, from Bethlehem to Cana to Calvary, the most powerful procession of images in Scripture is the dazzling vision of the Woman and her Seed, the Virgin and her Son, the Queen-Mother and the King, the Daughter of Zion and the messianic Son of Man, the New Adam and the New Eve. This striking sequence of scriptural icons locked itself into the minds and hearts of the Christian faithful, starting with the Apostolic Community of the first century, the first Fathers and the earliest Councils, and resulted in a vast treasury of doctrinal and devotional masterpieces. The union of Mother and Son in the Son’s mission of salvation and in the war against the Serpent is a persistent theme of Scripture mirrored in Christian doctrine and devotion through the centuries. This union of the New Adam and the New Eve has been portrayed from a wide variety of perspectives, the most recent being the union of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. **To see the Son without the Virgin Mother, the Seed without the Woman, the King without the Queen-Mother, the New Adam without the New Eve is to do violence both to Scripture and to all of Christian history. **For the Christian who enters the mind of the New Testament Church, the idea of “Jesus alone” without Mary is as unthinkable as the idea of the New Testament alone without the Old or the divinity of Jesus without the Humanity.

http://www.mariology.com/sections/introduction.html

kepha1

 

[TobyLue]

See this website if you want.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm
Call Catholics idolators if you wish. Call Mary just a plain woman if you wish. You all have a free will.
But please answer this:
What makes you have more knowledge, more wisdom, more insight, able to interpret with certainty through the gift that the Holy Spirit has given to you and you alone, rather than 2000 years of history, and by your self interpretation call the Early Church and the Church Fathers a bunch of liars which is what you do whether you admit it or not.
Please answer this question all of you that do not believe that the Catholic Church (the Church that Jesus founded, no matter how much you try and refute it) teaches the Truth.
Does anybody actually think that when the Catholic Church proclaimed certain dogmas concerning the Blessed Mother (oh, and how many of you that say you abide by scripture actually call Mary, Blessed as it says in scripture) the Church was ingnorant of Scripture? Do you think it was just done on some whimsical impulse that the Pope was just sitting around twiddling his thumbs and was bored and decided to make these proclamations? Do you think that all these arguments were not considered?
I for one have God as my Father, Jesus as my brother, and Mary as my mother(what a super family!!!) and I honor my Father and Mother, just as Jesus did.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

But this is a clear example.
ANYTHING you place before or above God is an idol it can be a person, place or thing.
You place mary before God when you go to her instead of Him. Jesus taught us how to pray., you have chosen to decide what is right in your own eyes.

Xavier in principle I agree with you that if you place anything before God then that is idolatry. This anything includes the following:

flags
footballers
soccer players
sportsmen and sportswomen
the Olympic games
pop stars
movie stars
money
television stars

All of the above are examples of idol worship in our day. On the other hand it is not idolatry to give honour to the woman who agreed to give birth to the Messiah through her fiat. Without that fiat we would not have had our redemption.

If you want to speak about the issue of idolatry I think you should open another thread so that we do not get sidetracked.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Dan-Man916:

Dave you raise several questions here. I will try to answer your last question because it is the one that addresses the issue of why Jesus calls his mother Woman. The answer is found in Genesis 3:14-15. This is where the promise is given that a time will come when Satan is crushed by the Woman and her seed. The use of Woman by John in this scene and again at the foot of the Cross is indicative of the role assigned to Mary. It goes beyond John’s Gospel and into the Book of Revelation, for it is here that Mary is revealed as the “Woman” who has a crown of 12 stars that do in fact represent both the 12 tribes of Israel as well as the 12 Apostles.

With your next comment about the Wedding Feast of Cana, I agree with you that the bridegroom does not approach Mary, instead she has been observant about the situation and she asked Jesus to intervene,

With regard to your Adam and Eve question, I think that you are looking at the connection in the wrong way. I think that instead of looking at the aspect of interpersonal relationships, which seems to be the enlightened fundamentalist method, I believe this should be approached from the point of view of Salvation history, and also in the light of what St. Paul had to say on the subject i.e. through one man sin came into the world and through one man grace came into the world. This to me is the connection and the clue. Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God. The New Adam and the New Eve overturned the disobedience of our first parents through their complete obedience to God’s Will.

(to be cont)

 

[MaggieOH]

(cont) for ouDave

The other question you raised is that of King and Queen. The answer for this question lies in understanding the nature of relationships in the Davidic Kingdom. There are several points that are constantly ignored by Protestants when they write their books on these subjects and as a result there are many who get the wrong impression of life in these ancient times. I really do believe that this is a huge stumbling block for many people.

It is the Queen Mother who is the Queen and not the wife (Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, can you imagine trying to choose a queen from amongst them? I cannot do so). That is why I asked Christ’s friend to find the answers to my questions. You see the answer should provide absolute proof of the nature of this royal relationship in Israel.

Therefore in the motif from John’s Gospel that describes the wedding feast, what else do we learn? Well, as I said you were right about the hosts are missing in this scene at Cana. There is a reason for John leaving out the hosts and concentrating on Mary and Jesus instead. The intercession comes, not from a request from the hosts, but from Mary who did not want the bridegroom to be embarrassed because the wine had run out sooner than expected.

Maggie

 

[Church_Militant]

oudave:

I thought a King and Queen were married. If Mary is the Queen then wouldnt that make Jesus a Prince? Just a thought. Only in the West…If you look at the OT you’ll see that all the Queens of Israel (Beginning with Solomon) were the Queen Mothers (Hebrew title is “Giberah” so you can hunt it down, okay?

Is Jesus being looked at as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve a Catholic thing, because I thought Adam and Eve were like, Husband and Wife. I’m not trying to make fun of it, just trying to see the comparison.

We aren’t talking about a marital relationship, but original sin and the corruption of Mankind by Adam and Eve’s “no” to God’s will and it’s redemption by the “yes” of Mary and of Christ to the will of God. In Mary’s case it was to bear the Son of God, the Messiah…for Christ it meant the obedience of the cross. Both suffered…Mary’s soul was pierced by a sword too, but Christ’s sacrifice was for all of us so that grace would be unleashed like a torrent, opening the way for us all to come to the Father through Him.

I dont see anywhere in scripture where it says that the Hosts of the wedding went to Mary and ask her to see if Jesus could get or make them some wine. What Bible are you reading this from?

You have to look at this as what it was, an act of compassionate intercession. Haven’t you ever prayed for someone that hadn’t asked for your prayers just because you know that they need them? Same concept here… Do we have to ask Christ to intercede for us with the Father? Of Course not! (Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.")

I even find it kind of strange that Jesus calls her ‘‘Woman’’ instead of ‘‘Mother’’. Then I also noticed that Mary tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells tham to do. I see nothing in this scripture that points to Mary as there advocate or ours.
In Him, Dave.

“Woman” was a term of extreme respect…NOT the way it’s used today. The advocacy of Mary in this verse is very clear Dave. Did she not intercede with Jesus on their behalf? She did. Did they HAVE to ask for it…No. Have you never intervened on behalf of someone else without them asking you to? Especially if you wanted to spare them some embarrassment or grief on a special day (Like their wedding…) Most people do not wait to be asked to help someone in a fix if they are Christians. In fact didn’t Christ Himself tell us not to let out left hand know what our right hand was doing?

Again I suggest that you do some research on the “giberah” and maybe that will help you see the Biblical basis for the intercessory role of the Blessed Virgin and Queen Mother of the Messiah, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Pax vobiscum,

 

[Wildgraywolf]

john doran:

i’m afraid this isn’t right, even by your own description: a system behaves either like a particle or like a wave, but not both at the same time and in the same respect.

if you buy into the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, then what you’re calling a quantum mechanical “system” is actually neither particle nor a wave, but only a wave function that is collapsed upon observation. but when it is collapsed, it is collapsed into a “system” with definite and distinct properties.

Correct not both at the same time, but in whether or not observation occurs directly or indirectly.