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edwinG
Guest
Hi Mercygate, Thanks for the response. No not tetchy, just plain talking which is greatly appreciated.
When you say the argument to insufficiency arises out of a need to reject anything Catholic, I have to respond by saying I am not aware of why other people do this but for me this is not so. LOL Catholics believe in Jesus for a start. No, I think catholics are devout Christians, but I also think they have made a rocky road for themselves.
To me it does not matter who does or who does not, this is not my yardstick. The bible is my foundation, and I can build on this any where and at any time from any incident or from anybody. Christ talks to us through anyone. He is not limited. He did speak through a donkey on one occasion. Not that the donkey should be venerated. Our focus must always be on Jesus. If our focus is on a saint we may have to make judgments. When was the saint right or wrong. All of them were sinners. How do we who lack wisdom judge their actions correctly. When were they being led by the Holy Spirit and when were they following their own will. To venerate saints leads you to thin ice, In Christ there is no thin ice. He is the cornerstone.
A Catholic may go to Mary first and then say that Mary leads them to Jesus. Is this veneration? To me this is wrong. Simply wrong. Why can’t a catholic go directly to Jesus.
Re Simon of Cyrene. He carried the cross for Jesus because this act tells us that Christ was fully human and His suffering was real. His suffering was not dimished by the Holy Spirit. Christ suffered completely, except God in His mercy shortened His time on the cross. But Christ died from pain, for us.
Jesus appointed apostles to spread The Word and all of them including the Prophets became the foundation of the church, the rock on which the church is built.
Why would Paul say, etc. Paul said this so those who came after would not think that they would have to suffer like Paul as we are wearing Christ’s easy yoke which fits us perfectly as it is tailor made for us , each having his own yoke. Christ commission was primarily for the Jews as Paul’s commission was primarily for the Gentiles.
If you are saying that we who live in Christ make Him sufficient, I can not agree. I do agree that we are an ever growing living temple for God, but He is sufficient totally in Himself. There can be no thought that those in Him aid His sufficiency.
Why use her name. Just use Jesus’s name. Can you miss the boat if you use only His name? That is the fulcrum of the issue. Why use any other name except His name. Jesus. Jesus, Jesus. If you can use His name why use any other name?
walk in love
Christ be with you
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Benadam
Guest
this is another demonstration from the other thread of Mary’s Queenship in cooperation with the Kingship of Jesus
The trinity is entirely divine untill the Word becomes human. The Person of the Word expresses the form of the Father’s will. Yet His person is formed by Mary. She has cooperated through Grace in the very task for the New creation that the Word accomplished alone in the first. Everything made was made ‘through’ the Word. When the Word becomes flesh the Second person of the Trinity whom everything is made through is Himself made through Mary. The world recieves the Word made man ‘through’ Mary. See, they are doing the same thing but Mary on an entirely natural human level and her Son on the divine level.
The prophecy of Simeon at the Temple is another demonstration in that it is the only prophecy that links the suffering of another person with the suffering of Christ. The intimacy is unparallelled and points to the exclusivity of Mary’s cooperation in Christ’s salvific work. The prevailing concept is much like the role of Eve to Adam as a ‘helpmeet’
The trinity is entirely divine untill the Word becomes human. The Person of the Word expresses the form of the Father’s will. Yet His person is formed by Mary. She has cooperated through Grace in the very task for the New creation that the Word accomplished alone in the first. Everything made was made ‘through’ the Word. When the Word becomes flesh the Second person of the Trinity whom everything is made through is Himself made through Mary. The world recieves the Word made man ‘through’ Mary. See, they are doing the same thing but Mary on an entirely natural human level and her Son on the divine level.
The prophecy of Simeon at the Temple is another demonstration in that it is the only prophecy that links the suffering of another person with the suffering of Christ. The intimacy is unparallelled and points to the exclusivity of Mary’s cooperation in Christ’s salvific work. The prevailing concept is much like the role of Eve to Adam as a ‘helpmeet’
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Because as Scripture says the prayers of the righteous availeth much. If I petition Christ (which Catholics certainly do by name all the time), I want the most righteous praying with me, and that would be Mary.
Scott
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mercygate
Guest
First? Mary can never be “first” since anything she is, she is because of Jesus.
Edwin, hon. You KNOW we go to Jesus all the time. ALL the time.
Fascinating. I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. That we do not have to suffer at all? Or that we who come after Paul do not suffer as Paul did – 'nother thread?
That’s my point. I believe the notion of “sufficiency,” as applied in statements like this, is flawed. That he chooses – requires – us in HIM to share in his work is a gift to us. He is the “sufficiency” yet he dignifies us by charging us, by his grace, to share in the salvific enterprise. (Ah ha. Here is where “sufficiency” meets up with “faith alone.”) To say that our preaching, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, means that Christ is insufficient does not compute.
Jesus is the only Name by which we are saved. Actually, when we get into these discussions, I sometimes think we give the impression that Catholics spend more time with Mary than with Jesus. Maybe some Catholics do, but in my experience, Jesus is the focus and fulcrum, and all all depends on him. We just keep in touch with a lot of his friends.
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Benadam
Guest
Originally Posted by edwinG
*Why use her name. Just use Jesus’s name. Can you miss the boat if you use only His name? That is the fulcrum of the issue. Why use any other name except His name. Jesus. Jesus, Jesus. If you can use His name why use any other name? *
walk in love
*Christ be with you *
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Edwin,
*If you knew what is meant in regards of a name attached to a person in it’s spiritual sense you would recognize that the catholic church is the only people trully invoking the Divine Name. *
A name and the person named are so intimately united that the name is a perfect expression of the meaning of the named. To know the name of a person requires that one be greater than the person who’s name is known. Hence Adam names the animals. After sin Adam names Woman Eve.
*Christ came in the name of the Father and since His being was one with the Father the pattern of His life wrote the name of God on the tablet of the earth. All of us write our true names this way and this is our scroll or book of life. *
The liturgy of the Church imitates the pattern in outward sign recalling the pattern lived by Christ that wrote the name. Baptism also places that perfect pattern of life lived within humanity by St John the baptist to Christ’s. The history of the Church is on the journey living that pattern as well, an impossibility for fallen man without the anchoring force of a tradition.
*So, Mary’s name is not invoked nor can it be unless outward signs of the pattern of her life were made a pattern within a worshippers religious expression. Maybe this is why her life is well hidden…
*
*Why use her name. Just use Jesus’s name. Can you miss the boat if you use only His name? That is the fulcrum of the issue. Why use any other name except His name. Jesus. Jesus, Jesus. If you can use His name why use any other name? *
walk in love
*Christ be with you *
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Edwin,
*If you knew what is meant in regards of a name attached to a person in it’s spiritual sense you would recognize that the catholic church is the only people trully invoking the Divine Name. *
A name and the person named are so intimately united that the name is a perfect expression of the meaning of the named. To know the name of a person requires that one be greater than the person who’s name is known. Hence Adam names the animals. After sin Adam names Woman Eve.
*Christ came in the name of the Father and since His being was one with the Father the pattern of His life wrote the name of God on the tablet of the earth. All of us write our true names this way and this is our scroll or book of life. *
The liturgy of the Church imitates the pattern in outward sign recalling the pattern lived by Christ that wrote the name. Baptism also places that perfect pattern of life lived within humanity by St John the baptist to Christ’s. The history of the Church is on the journey living that pattern as well, an impossibility for fallen man without the anchoring force of a tradition.
*So, Mary’s name is not invoked nor can it be unless outward signs of the pattern of her life were made a pattern within a worshippers religious expression. Maybe this is why her life is well hidden…
*
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MaggieOH
Guest
Hi Edwin,
I do not see how you can jump to such conclusions when I have done nothing to elevate Mary to anything other than point out that she has always pointed us in the direction of Her Son. That is what I expect of the Blessed Mother
. It was Mary who sang the Magnificat: “My soul doth magnify the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour” (Luke paraphrased).I am not sure if you can see how this very hymn is one that we too can sing when God grants special graces that fill a person with Joy. To feel that special gift of the Grace of Jubiliation is something that fills the heart until one trembles.
Who do I worship? The answer is God, and I do not stop short at Jesus because I worship and praise all aspects of God’s nature without distinction, yet I recognize that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also, I praise God for His Creation, and that includes all the animals and humans that have ever lived. Even so, there is only one human who stands out from all others because of her humble purity. She is a reminder of what we should be like. There is no need to elevate Mary, or the Holy Family. It is enough to recognize that they are role models for our daily life.
What kind of model is Mary? First of all you have her obedience to the will of God. Without that obedience there would not be a Messiah. I do not accept the proposition that God would have asked someone else to be the Woman, because I believe that from the beginning God chose the one who would be the Woman, and He made sure of her purity so that she was prepared to accept her mission in life as “The mother of My LORD”.
Second, as this relates to Jesus, she is a model mother in the way that she brought up her Son, for she taught him the Scripture as he was a young boy and it was she who nursed him, or as it is written, gave him suck. It was Mary who attended to all of those needs of Jesus as he grew from being a baby and into the man who at the age of 30 revealed his true mission on earth. For a woman, it is good to know that Mary nurtured her son, and if there are specific problems relating to children, she has been there and done that.
Third, Mary is the embodiment of being a model of faith. Not even Abraham had the faith of Mary, because Genesis records the times when Abraham doubted that God would be able to assist him, when he told Sarah to not let on that she was his wife. Mary never doubted her God, so in that way she is also a model of faith, and especially a model of faith in expectation of the Messiah.
The other point that I need to make is that I cannot imagine why God would not want to give a special place in heaven to the Woman whose yes brought about our Salvation.
I see faith as something that is not one-sided. The honour that I give to Mary is due to Her because the fourth commandment says: Honour thy Father and thy mother. I cannot imagine Jesus not giving honour to His Mother, yet I can imagine His disappointment that so many turn their backs upon His mother, who was after all given to us as Mother of the Church. That is why she deserves honour, not as a goddess, but because of her role in our salvation.
I go to daily Mass, and that means that every day I give honour to God. It means that I hear (and sometimes proclaim) the Scriptures every day of the week. It means that I participate in the prayers of the Church that give thanks and praise to our God.
God Bless,
Maggie (closet Charismatic)
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MaggieOH
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Edwin my friend,
I sincerely suspect that you have not understood why a Catholic will say that Mary leads us to her Son. Your words seem to convey that you understand this to mean that we only petition Mary but that is not true.
I think that an illustration might help you to understand that the love that Catholics have for Jesus is unsurpassable. He is after all, the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
In this illustration, I am using a made up story of a young woman who found herself in a predicament of being abused by family members. The young woman was raised as a Catholic, and she loved Jesus very much. The abuse that she endured at the hands of family members caused her a lot of pain and suffering and eventually it led to a loss of faith. She never gave up believing in God, she just questioned the point of going to Church. She stopped going to Mass. Even when she met and married another Catholic she remained lukewarm in her faith.
Then by chance she went to a presentation put on by one of the other mothers at the school where her children were attending. This presentation was all about the alleged miracle at Medjugorje. What happened is that something was awakened within her, and then we began doing further study, and praying, reading the Scripture, and following a Scripture rosary. This woman was taken very gently by the hand by Mary, and since that moment she has become stronger and stronger in her faith that Jesus is our Saviour and that we have been redeemed from the bondage of sin.
Through the struggle of the following years the faith of this woman has been tested and rewarded. She has suffered depression on and off for years, and she knows that once she begins earnestly praying the Rosary that she is restored to faith, believing more than every that Jesus is the Messiah. Her belief is such that she goes to Mass every day, because she hungers to know God. Her relationship is firmly established with God.
Maggie
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edwinG
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Scott Waddell:
This is a brave answer. I rejoice that Catholics certainly go to Christ by name first all the time.
Now think about the next line.
You want the most righteous praying with you.
I ask why?
Is Christ insufficient? You must think He is as you need the help of persons who can not be edified by praying for you.
When you ask your neighbour to pray for you, his prayers for you are an exercise in love for you and benefit him. All prayers are answered, it is a matter of timing.“No” is an answer. If God answers the prayer in the affirmative immediately all are edified. We need constant communication from God or we feel abandoned. After a couple of days, I get a bit off center. Do you think that Mary needs to have this constant communication with God by millions of catholics every day or she may lose her salvation. If Mary and the “dead” were not available to you to use as intercessors, who would you use. You would have to use your contemporaries who would then be edified.
I ask you. Are you failing to give people here on earth a chance to do good works for you, by cutting them out. In your lifetime of prayer, how many people have you not asked to pray for you because you have Mary and the saints to do this and their righteous prayers are to you so much better.
I stand very firm. Go directly to Jesus to Him alone.
Humble yourself and ask your fellow christians to pray for you. Take the time and the trouble to do this. You are helping them by your request. It is not a humbling experience to ask a “dead” saint to help you.
This praying to “dead” saints lacks understanding of prayer.
My love to you
edwinG
Hi Scott,
This is a brave answer. I rejoice that Catholics certainly go to Christ by name first all the time.
Now think about the next line.
You want the most righteous praying with you.
I ask why?
Is Christ insufficient? You must think He is as you need the help of persons who can not be edified by praying for you.
When you ask your neighbour to pray for you, his prayers for you are an exercise in love for you and benefit him. All prayers are answered, it is a matter of timing.“No” is an answer. If God answers the prayer in the affirmative immediately all are edified. We need constant communication from God or we feel abandoned. After a couple of days, I get a bit off center. Do you think that Mary needs to have this constant communication with God by millions of catholics every day or she may lose her salvation. If Mary and the “dead” were not available to you to use as intercessors, who would you use. You would have to use your contemporaries who would then be edified.
I ask you. Are you failing to give people here on earth a chance to do good works for you, by cutting them out. In your lifetime of prayer, how many people have you not asked to pray for you because you have Mary and the saints to do this and their righteous prayers are to you so much better.
I stand very firm. Go directly to Jesus to Him alone.
Humble yourself and ask your fellow christians to pray for you. Take the time and the trouble to do this. You are helping them by your request. It is not a humbling experience to ask a “dead” saint to help you.
This praying to “dead” saints lacks understanding of prayer.
My love to you
edwinG
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mainelyned
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If you look in the OT you will find that in the Davidic kingdom the Queen Mother was actually more important than the queen. She held an actual office with real authority in the kingdom. Look at 1 Kings and Bathsheba, wife of David and mother of Solomon. As queen to David, she was humble and approached the king like most subjects in the kingdom…she would bow with her face to the ground and honored her huband David wihen she enter his chamber. When her son, Solomon, became king, she suddenly became much more powerful as the queen mother. When she entered, the King rose to meet her and then he had her sit at his right hand! She also made requests or petitions to the king on behalf of people. In 1 Kings 2:19-20 she makes a petition for Adonijah and the king says:“Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” She was an intercessor. So Mary, as queen mother of our King, Jesus, is now the intercessor for all of us!Hi Dan ,I thought Jesus held the title ADVOCATE.[1john 2 vs 1God Bless
God bless…
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MaggieOH
Guest
Dear Edwin,
I have a couple of questions for you, and I hope that this will help to clarify some of the misunderstandings that are happening here.
Just a quick remark before I ask my questions. We do ask our fellow Christians here on earth for prayers. We do it all the time.
My first question is: How do you understand the word “dead” as it is written in the Scripture?
My second question is: Why do you believe that all prayers are answered in the affirmative? God always gives an answer but not always to our liking.
I look forward to receiving your response.
Maggie
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edwinG
Guest
Hi Maggie,
How sad this story is.
This woman was taken very gently by the hand of Mary.
Where was Jesus? Does He send His mother when someone calls out to Him?
I dont want or need Mary as I am full of Joy with Him and Him alone.
Am I wrong in only calling on Him and having only Him in my life?
The pope could offer me Mary and I would refuse. But obviously millions dont refuse and someone other than Jesus is being called.
I have had experience with other "good " spirits and on one occasion my room shook and this giant colourful ball appeared. Now this is a falungong and all its teachings seem beautiful. I was reading a book on their practises. However this is not Jesus and I rejected this "good " spirit. I have also been tricked into false praise of satan by a miraculous occurance and it took me some months before the Holy Spirit awakened me to this sly act and I stopped using these praises words.( not english) I do not speak in tongues.
Now Maggie I love you very much and my heart is with you.My prayers are also.
Trust in Him and Him alone. It is so simple and very beautiful. Remember in Christ is all authority except for times and seasons.
Walk in love
May Christ grow in your heart
edwinG
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MaggieOH
Guest
Hi Edwin,
I thought that you might be interested in this analogy that might help you to understand a little more about why Catholics ask everyone for prayers.
Think for a moment about what happens in a court of law. There is usually the judge and then there are the barristers for both the prosecution and the defence. Now these barristers are in fact advocates for their clients. In very big cases there is usually more than one advocate assigned to the case. Do you agree?
Now, think for a moment about what happens when someone wants to influence the Parliament to their own advantage. Is it not true that those who seek to influence the law of the land employ lobbyists to do the job? Not just one lobbyist, but several? Now sticking with this thought, what happens when people put around a petition? What is the purpose? The purpose is to get the support of those who are willing to sign a petition for a common cause.
So how does this relate to how Catholics pray and why Mary? I think someone else has adequately addressed the role of the Queen Mother in the Kingdom of David. This role is a precursor of the role given to Mary in the Kingdom of Heaven. The queen mother, that is the mother of the king (in Solomon’s case Bathsheba) acted as an advocate for the subjects of the kingdom. They would go to her and ask to have favours granted because Solomon could not refuse his mother’s request.
Move forward in time to the wedding feast at Cana. Mary makes a request and it is not refused - Jesus turns the water into wine does he not? Who spoke up on behalf of the bride and groom to spare them embarrassment? Mary spoke up and Jesus granted her request.
The point is, Catholics know that the King will grant their requests, but they also like to have a little bit of extra help from either fellow subjects in the Kingdom of Heaven, or from the Mother of the King who is also an advocate on our behalf and who will seek to have our needs met through intercession with her son.
You must realise that we do not just ask Mary and the saints in heaven for their help and intercession with God on our behalf, we also ask others to pray for us and our special intentions.
MaggieOH
I thought that you might be interested in this analogy that might help you to understand a little more about why Catholics ask everyone for prayers.
Think for a moment about what happens in a court of law. There is usually the judge and then there are the barristers for both the prosecution and the defence. Now these barristers are in fact advocates for their clients. In very big cases there is usually more than one advocate assigned to the case. Do you agree?
Now, think for a moment about what happens when someone wants to influence the Parliament to their own advantage. Is it not true that those who seek to influence the law of the land employ lobbyists to do the job? Not just one lobbyist, but several? Now sticking with this thought, what happens when people put around a petition? What is the purpose? The purpose is to get the support of those who are willing to sign a petition for a common cause.
So how does this relate to how Catholics pray and why Mary? I think someone else has adequately addressed the role of the Queen Mother in the Kingdom of David. This role is a precursor of the role given to Mary in the Kingdom of Heaven. The queen mother, that is the mother of the king (in Solomon’s case Bathsheba) acted as an advocate for the subjects of the kingdom. They would go to her and ask to have favours granted because Solomon could not refuse his mother’s request.
Move forward in time to the wedding feast at Cana. Mary makes a request and it is not refused - Jesus turns the water into wine does he not? Who spoke up on behalf of the bride and groom to spare them embarrassment? Mary spoke up and Jesus granted her request.
The point is, Catholics know that the King will grant their requests, but they also like to have a little bit of extra help from either fellow subjects in the Kingdom of Heaven, or from the Mother of the King who is also an advocate on our behalf and who will seek to have our needs met through intercession with her son.
You must realise that we do not just ask Mary and the saints in heaven for their help and intercession with God on our behalf, we also ask others to pray for us and our special intentions.
MaggieOH
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MaggieOH
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Dear Edwin,
I am sorry that you misunderstood my illustration, you see Jesus was there with His mother when she led the woman back to her Son. It was not just Jesus, but God who was there caring for this woman during the struggle in the lookwarm years of her life.
You say that you do not need Mary in your life, but I wonder how much more your life would be enriched if you could just spend a little time getting to know Mary’s Son through the eyes of Mary. This is what we have when we pray the Rosary. It is not the prayers that are important in the Rosary, but what they signify as we thread through the mysteries in the life of Jesus from the time of the Annunciation, to His Death on the Cross, followed by His Resurrection. It is the Scripture itself that is significant because we are led into a deep contemplation of a life with and in Jesus.
I wonder why you are so afraid of having any relationship with the Woman who was chosen by God to bring the Messiah into the world. It really was a special role. By saying yes Mary knew of the sorrow that she would face.
As a mother myself, it is reassuring to know that my heavenly mother is there at my side, and it is even more reassuring to know that God is also there within Christian life. You see the Scripture tells me of some of the things that the Holy Family endured:
- they became refugees when Herod sought to kill the Child.
- Mary and Joseph felt fear when they realised that Jesus was not with them as they returned home from Jerusalem.
- Mary had the sorrow of knowing that her son had been condemned to die as a criminal.
Edwin, you have no idea of the graces that God has already bestowed upon me, because God has done wonderful things for me through the grace of the Holy Spirit. He has shown me the joy that comes from receiving the Grace of Jubiliation, and at other times He has given me the grace of Consolation. These have been special moments to me.
The difference that I have with you is that when I speak of God, I speak of God, not of just “Jesus”. It is God whom I love and adore, who I praise every day through my participation in the Eucharistic celebration.
I pray now that your eyes will be opened that that you will learn to respond to Mary, who is also your mother because she is Mother of the Church.
Maggie
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Benadam
Guest
That was a heartwarming and inspirationl meditation. While reading about Mary experiencing the news that her Son would die as a criminal, the image of her mothers face, an honored and beloved mother, when she heard the news, and I was struck . From there my thoughts lead me tothe fact that the family as the primary and central social unit is meant to preserve and perfect the immortal soul and as such God would communicate His love through that image of His Trinitarian self as well.The Holy Family.
Thank you so much Maggie.
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Axion
Guest
No Christ isn’t insufficient. Is he insufficient for asking for prayer at all - when He knows what we need?
The fact is that scripture tells us that intercessory prayer is valid and good. That the intercession of the righteous is more powerful, and that prayer changes things. We do not know exactly how or why, but that is what scripture teaches.
It may not be neat enough for you, but that is the truth.
Interesting tactic. You declare a new doctrine. Prayer affects nothing but is just a good work of the prayer. Then you take this (infallible?) new teaching and apply it to Mary!!!
Sorry. But nice try.
You obviously are criticising what you imagine to be catholicism rather than the actual practice of Catholics.
In my experience no-one is happier to ask fellow believers for prayer than a catholic.
Again. This is a straw man.
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mercygate
Guest
When a saint is canonized, we do not have to make judgments because by the teaching authority of the Church, that person has been declared infallibly to be in heaven.
Of course there is no “thin ice” in Christ. The saints are in full Communion with Christ – “in him” – and in full communion with the Communion of Saints. The Protestant quibble with “saints” has to do with an extremely narrow view of the Mystical Body of Christ (which is a foreign doctrine to many Protestants) and of the Communion of Saints.
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merechristian
Guest
While Mary is “honored among women”, she is just another Christian. The Bible tells us that there is only one God, who was revealed to us in Jesus Christ. We are told not to pray to angels, saints, or other gods.
Many Christians and Nonchristians will agree that the idea of worshipping Mary came from the old “Mother Goddess” religions. Mary is not an intercessor, Jesus is our High Priest. He died for his mother just as much as he died for us. Only he can forgive sins.
Many Christians and Nonchristians will agree that the idea of worshipping Mary came from the old “Mother Goddess” religions. Mary is not an intercessor, Jesus is our High Priest. He died for his mother just as much as he died for us. Only he can forgive sins.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
No not another person gave birth and raised and nurtured the second person of the Blessed trinity.Who disputes their is one God?We are only to worship God and that is who we worship.Look up the meaning of pray(to ask).We don’t worship Mary we are just falsely accused of it,by well meaning misinformed people.Mary is an intercessor she prays for us to her Son Jesus.You are an intercessor if you pray for me.Who said Mary can forgive sins?God Bless
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MaggieOH
Guest
This post is off-topic and is designed to put forward a secret agenda of the poster.
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