Hail Holy Queen......

[Wildgraywolf]

oudave:

You still didnt answer my question on where does it say that the host’s went to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus for some wine.
In Him,Dave.

You’re correct scripture doesn’t mention the host saying anything to Mary; it doesn’t say he didn’t either. I don’t see why that’s important. At some point she learned of a problem and chose to help. Being an advocate for someone doesn’t necessarily mean they must approach you first i.e. a random act of kindness. Also, scripture doesn’t mention that Jesus and/or Mary were even invited to the wedding in the first place, but we can reasonably assume they were invited guests without seeing it in writing.

OMG! THAT’S IT! Maybe Jesus and Mary crashed the wedding party and that’s why they ran out of wine early!!! No wonder she mentioned it Jesus! Whew luckily he knew how to make more in a hurry. It’s all so clear now (hic)! :bigyikes:

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I’ve must have heard and read the marriage feast at Canna story millions of times over the years, but somehow - and I have no scriptural basis for this - I’ve always thought of it as a “tongue-in-cheek” kinda humor passing between mother and son.

You know weddings were happy, joyful events, “party times” as it were; and I just can’t imagine that either Jesus or Mary would be “deadly serious” at that particular moment…

Mary: Son, they’ve run out of whine.
Jesus: So? What’s that got to do with me?
Mary: <gives Jesus that amused mom look that only mom’s can give>
Mary: Do whatever he tells you.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

thirsty4uolord:

Bless All And Christ Be With You
:tsktsk:
You guys sound a little silly here , discussing the ways of God using Physics.

Yes, that was more or less the whole point of my posting that.

 

[MaggieOH]

:whacky:

Wildgraywolf:

You’re correct scripture doesn’t mention the host saying anything to Mary; it doesn’t say he didn’t either. I don’t see why that’s important. At some point she learned of a problem and chose to help. Being an advocate for someone doesn’t necessarily mean they must approach you first i.e. a random act of kindness. Also, scripture doesn’t mention that Jesus and/or Mary were even invited to the wedding in the first place, but we can reasonably assume they were invited guests without seeing it in writing.

OMG! THAT’S IT! Maybe Jesus and Mary crashed the wedding party and that’s why they ran out of wine early!!! No wonder she mentioned it Jesus! Whew luckily he knew how to make more in a hurry. It’s all so clear now (hic)! :bigyikes:

 

[edwinG]

*Hail, holy Queen, *
Gabriel used the word hail to address Mary. If Jesus is our King, then his Mother is our queen. The Queen Mother is always seen in relation to the King.

Mother of mercy,
She is the Mother of CHrist who is our mercy. Therefore, nothing wrong with this statement either.

*hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. *
same as above.

*To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: *
Mary is the new Eve. This symbolizes her relation to the new Adam, Christ. As Eve brought forth the fruit of the tree to Adam who took and sinned, thus responsible for the fall, so Mary brought forth CHrist, the Incarnate Logos who was responsible for redemption.

*to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. *
This brings to mind the wedding at Cana where the hosts of the wedding went to Mary (notice they didn’t go to Jesus with their problem).
Mary goes then to Jesus, knowing that no Son would say no to His Mother. Mary is our advocate in that as we are the hosts of the wedding who have run out of wine, we ask Mary to be our advocate to Jesus, to fix that, in our lives, that we are unable to fix.
yes, the language is beautiful and poetic, but let’s remember we’re talking about Mom here! and who doesn’t love their Mother enough to use such beautiful language.

The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous here at all.

Hi Dan,
Who does the Holy Spirit lead us to? Jesus, not Jesus and or Mary. Is God wrong? Is He short changing us by only ( through the Holy Spirit) leading us to Jesus.
We are to become like Him to live in Him in Jesus. We can not live in Him if we disagree.
Now God does not lead us to Mary. He leads us to Jesus. We go to Jesus, go directly to Jesus.
If you go to anyone else, any saint or to Mary, you are not doing as God does. You are then not conforming to His will.
He is showing us His will. The Holy Spirit leads us directly to Jesus. Do as He does or you are against Him.
It is that simple. It is so so very important.
Very strongly I say, if you know His will and you repeatedly reject it willfully, you are against Him.
We know it is His will to go to Jesus because that is where He leads us. simple simple simple. Do it.
Walk in love
Grow in Christ
edwinG

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi Dan,
Who does the Holy Spirit lead us to? Jesus, not Jesus and or Mary. Is God wrong? Is He short changing us by only ( through the Holy Spirit) leading us to Jesus.
We are to become like Him to live in Him in Jesus. We can not live in Him if we disagree.
Now God does not lead us to Mary. He leads us to Jesus. We go to Jesus, go directly to Jesus.
If you go to anyone else, any saint or to Mary, you are not doing as God does. You are then not conforming to His will.
He is showing us His will. The Holy Spirit leads us directly to Jesus. Do as He does or you are against Him.
It is that simple. It is so so very important.
Very strongly I say, if you know His will and you repeatedly reject it willfully, you are against Him.
We know it is His will to go to Jesus because that is where He leads us. simple simple simple. Do it.
Walk in love
Grow in Christ
edwinG

Hi Edwin,

can you answer this question for me. In the Scripture, to whom does Mary lead us? Please see John chapter 2 for the answer.

God Bless

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Edwin,

I can tell from the respect that you give to others that you are a good Christian man, so with respect can I ask you to have a look at the following passage:

“Not that I care for my own glory,
there is someone who takes care of that and is the judge of it.
I tell you solemnly,
whoever keeps my word will never see death” (John 8:50-51)

Now, every time I read the Gospel of John, I always find something new that has not struck me before. There are many ways of seeing particular verses in John’s Gospel. It is because John’s writings are like a pop-up book for children, when you open the door just a little bit, you find that there are more enticing things inside ready for exploration. I love John’s Gospel, and I hope that you have the same kind of love for this Gospel.

So let me ask you a question: when you read the above verse, is there anything that leaps out to you? I can immediately think of two possibilities, and neither of them are the Catholic interpretation.

God Bless,
and I look forward to more dialogue

MaggieOH

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Hi Edwin,

can you answer this question for me. In the Scripture, to whom does Mary lead us? Please see John chapter 2 for the answer.

God Bless

Maggie

Hi MaggieOH,
Mary leads us to Jesus. That is what we should do. Follow her example. She does not lead us to herself. She had a problem, she took it to Jesus. Go to Jesus.
Walk in love
Grow in Christ
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Edwin,

I can tell from the respect that you give to others that you are a good Christian man, so with respect can I ask you to have a look at the following passage:

“Not that I care for my own glory,
there is someone who takes care of that and is the judge of it.
I tell you solemnly,
whoever keeps my word will never see death” (John 8:50-51)

Now, every time I read the Gospel of John, I always find something new that has not struck me before. There are many ways of seeing particular verses in John’s Gospel. It is because John’s writings are like a pop-up book for children, when you open the door just a little bit, you find that there are more enticing things inside ready for exploration. I love John’s Gospel, and I hope that you have the same kind of love for this Gospel.

So let me ask you a question: when you read the above verse, is there anything that leaps out to you? I can immediately think of two possibilities, and neither of them are the Catholic interpretation.

God Bless,
and I look forward to more dialogue

MaggieOH

Hi Maggie,
Yes I like John as I like most of the bible. What you describe, the eyes being opened and some deeper meaning being conveyed is such a joyous occasion. IT is finding the gold in the field. How simply precious is the Truth. I am in love with the truth, but still make mistakes. I know I make mistakes because I am shown my errors. Their may be more hiding out there that have to come back to me, but as I speak and do so I learn.
The passage you have quoted has no special meaning to me, apart from the obvious.
Christ does not do or speak to glorify Himself. He knows He has glory but He does not care about it as it does not motivate Him. It is not his work to seek or to judge but there is One who does this. Christ only obeys. Further Christ says if you keep His word you will never see death.
Well I could talk considerable around this but I have no deeper understanding on these two verses. I would be very pleased if you shared this with me.
Walk in love
Grow in Jesus
edwinG

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi Maggie,
Yes I like John as I like most of the bible. What you describe, the eyes being opened and some deeper meaning being conveyed is such a joyous occasion. IT is finding the gold in the field. How simply precious is the Truth. I am in love with the truth, but still make mistakes. I know I make mistakes because I am shown my errors. Their may be more hiding out there that have to come back to me, but as I speak and do so I learn.
The passage you have quoted has no special meaning to me, apart from the obvious.
Christ does not do or speak to glorify Himself. He knows He has glory but He does not care about it as it does not motivate Him. It is not his work to seek or to judge but there is One who does this. Christ only obeys. Further Christ says if you keep His word you will never see death.
Well I could talk considerable around this but I have no deeper understanding on these two verses. I would be very pleased if you shared this with me.
Walk in love
Grow in Jesus
edwinG

Edwin,

you failed to see what is there for everyone to see. Hint:

who heard God’s word and obeyed His Will? The answer is not Jesus because Jesus was speaking of another person in this verse.

Please have another look and this time pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten you.

God Bless,

Maggie

 

[cyprian]

MaggieOH:

Edwin,

you failed to see what is there for everyone to see. Hint:

who heard God’s word and obeyed His Will? The answer is not Jesus because Jesus was speaking of another person in this verse.

Please have another look and this time pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten you.

God Bless,

Maggie

Maggie, be careful…Remember the Cath church rightfully interprets scripture for us. This is why we have many of these challenges going on with bible christians…they interepret the way they see fit. I recommend getting a good commentary if you don’t have one. (Navarre Bible commentary is excellent). Not saying we can’t get deeper on scripture without a commentary, just that we have to watch when stating something definite by our own reading.

Peace and Love

 

[Axion]

RehLlits:

Starting with TNT,

God did not keep that spot for someone (queen of heaven) He said there is not spot like that, and that only He should be worshiped. Your trying to get around that fact that God hated the worship of a queen of heaven.

God hated the worship of a false Queen of Heaven. Just as earlier in Jeremiah 7, he hates worship of a false god and lord - Baal. Baal simply means “lord”.

they were praying to her. As far as I know Catholics still pray to Mary. Jer said not to pray to her and that it was evil in the sight of God.

Jeremiah does not say not to pray. That is something you have added to the terxt from your own mind. The passage is about offering worship and sacrifice, (cakes and wine), to false gods, including Baal and Asherah.

Praying is not worship. Otherwise when soeone says “pray, be seated,” they are worshipping you as a god!!! Nonsense.

As far as asking someone to pray for you. In the inspired Text I see plenty of examples where people ask other people to pray for them. I am not against that. What I do not see in inspired Scripture is examples when people ask dead (or even if they were in heaven and never suffered death) people to pray for them. So I am against asking Mary or any other saint to pray for us.

In Revelation we see the heavenly Saints offering the prayers of the earthly Saints to God.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

[MaggieOH]

cyprian:

Maggie, be careful…Remember the Cath church rightfully interprets scripture for us. This is why we have many of these challenges going on with bible christians…they interepret the way they see fit. I recommend getting a good commentary if you don’t have one. (Navarre Bible commentary is excellent). Not saying we can’t get deeper on scripture without a commentary, just that we have to watch when stating something definite by our own reading.

Peace and Love

Hi Cyprian,

I have the Navarre commentaries. I suggest that you did not understand the purpose of my question and have jumped to some wrong conclusions.

Also, please do not bring up this kind of thing on a thread because of the danger of going off-topic.

Please trust me, for I know precisely what I am looking for by way of an answer and that is why I gave the hint of where to look for an answer.

Maggie

 

[cyprian]

MaggieOH:

Hi Cyprian,

I have the Navarre commentaries. I suggest that you did not understand the purpose of my question and have jumped to some wrong conclusions.

Also, please do not bring up this kind of thing on a thread because of the danger of going off-topic.

Please trust me, for I know precisely what I am looking for by way of an answer and that is why I gave the hint of where to look for an answer.

Maggie

Well then!
I wait with bated breath

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Edwin,

you failed to see what is there for everyone to see. Hint:

who heard God’s word and obeyed His Will? The answer is not Jesus because Jesus was speaking of another person in this verse.

Please have another look and this time pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten you.

God Bless,

Maggie

Hi Maggie,
You are wrong. "You failed to see what is there for everyone to see. " I can not see Maggie. I know you will share this deeper truth you have, with me because that is the work of all of us in Jesus, to edify the church.
Thank you Maggie
walk in love
edwinG

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi MaggieOH,
Mary leads us to Jesus. That is what we should do. Follow her example. She does not lead us to herself. She had a problem, she took it to Jesus. Go to Jesus.
Walk in love
Grow in Christ
edwinG

Edwin

thank you for the respectful response. You have given the Catholic answer. That is correct and that is what I wanted to see you give as an answer.

You are absolutely correct when you say that Mary does not lead us to herself. Her first thought has always been her Son, and that is why She has always been there leading us back to Jesus when we have strayed away into apostasy.

God Bless
Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi Maggie,
You are wrong. "You failed to see what is there for everyone to see. " I can not see Maggie. I know you will share this deeper truth you have, with me because that is the work of all of us in Jesus, to edify the church.
Thank you Maggie
walk in love
edwinG

Edwin,

The passage is itself a promise of eternal life for all those who accept the teachings of Jesus and remain true to them. There is one person (other than Jesus) who remained true. That person is Mary.

Now there other passages in the Gospels where Jesus makes references to those who hear the word of God:

“My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it.” (Luke 8:21)

“Here are my mother and my brethren! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother” (Mk 3:34-35)

“Here are my mother and my brethren! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mt 12:49-50)

It is interesting to note that many use this same passage to claim that Jesus was deriding His mother, but that is not true. He is praising her because she did the will of God by her fiat. The reference to those present as the brethren of Jesus is a reminder that we too are brothers and sisters in Christ, with Mary as our Spiritual mother who will always be there ready to guide us back to her Son.

These words apply first and foremost to Mary, a model of faith. “Throughout her life and until her last ordeal whn Jesus her son died on the cross, Mary’s faith never wavered. She never ceased to believe in the fulfillment of God’s word.” CCC 149

So, when Jesus says in John’s Gospel:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” (John 8:51)

This applies first and foremost to Mary, who kept God’s word, and is the first to receive the reward of Eternal Life.

Maggie

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

Edwin,

The passage is itself a promise of eternal life for all those who accept the teachings of Jesus and remain true to them. There is one person (other than Jesus) who remained true. That person is Mary.

Now there other passages in the Gospels where Jesus makes references to those who hear the word of God:

“My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it.” (Luke 8:21)

“Here are my mother and my brethren! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother” (Mk 3:34-35)

“Here are my mother and my brethren! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mt 12:49-50)

It is interesting to note that many use this same passage to claim that Jesus was deriding His mother, but that is not true. He is praising her because she did the will of God by her fiat. The reference to those present as the brethren of Jesus is a reminder that we too are brothers and sisters in Christ, with Mary as our Spiritual mother who will always be there ready to guide us back to her Son.

These words apply first and foremost to Mary, a model of faith. “Throughout her life and until her last ordeal whn Jesus her son died on the cross, Mary’s faith never wavered. She never ceased to believe in the fulfillment of God’s word.” CCC 149

So, when Jesus says in John’s Gospel:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” (John 8:51)

This applies first and foremost to Mary, who kept God’s word, and is the first to receive the reward of Eternal Life.

Maggie

Hi Maggie,
This is an area of disagreement. I believe how wonderful and beautiful a lady Mary, Jesus mother , is but I dont cause her grief by setting her above her Holy role.
Maggie, I look at my life and it is blessed by Christ working in me, teaching me and by God’s love for me. The Holy Spirit is my constant companion. In Him I have sufficiency.
Now your need to find something that God can not give you except in Mary to me is sad. I wish all catholics were the same as me, full of His love and trusting in only Him.
Tell me this Maggie, am I wrong to trust only in Him? Is He insufficient?
Then further, if He is sufficient, why go elsewhere. Are you saying that Mary has made God complete?

Now I dont want you to think I am condemning you.

I am not.
This is what you believe.

But I do not need to believe this to experience Him in His love, mercy and blessings. Maggie I have a blessed life in Christ.
Walk in love Maggie
Grow in Christ
edwinG

 

[mercygate]

edwinG:

The Holy Spirit is my constant companion. In Him I have sufficiency.

Is He insufficient?
Then further, if He is sufficient, why go elsewhere. Are you saying that Mary has made God complete?

Be patient with me; the next sentence may at first blush appear to be tetchy, but it is not.

The argument to insufficiency rises out of a need to reject anything Catholic, just because it is Catholic. Good hearted people may operate off of this platform without even realizing it. Believe me. I KNOW. It took me a long time to go from instinctively rejecting ‘Catholic’ things, like veneration of saints or sacramental confession, to allowing that if non-catholics did them also, then maybe (just maybe) they might not be so terrible.

It is illogical and unfriendly to conclude that IF one venerates Our Lady THEN the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient. We are called to bear one another’s burdens. If Christ is sufficient in the sense you seem to indicate, why would that be? Why would Simon of Cyrene have to carry the Cross? Why would Jesus appoint Apostles? Why would Paul say “I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions”? Is Christ insufficient? Of course not. But in Him, we are part of that ‘sufficiency.’ And Mary is one of us.

You say that to ask for the intercession of Our Lady is to go “elsewhere.” But Our Lady is never “elsewhere.” Catholics, the Orthodox, and mainstream Protestants proclaim the Apostles’ Creed, which declares that Jesus is “conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.” Jesus continues to be “conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary” in our hearts. You say, “The Holy Spirit is my constant companion. In Him I have sufficiency.” We would say that whether you know it or not, Our Lady, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, is also your constant companion, with all the saints, because they are one in Christ.

We do not “set Mary above her holy role” nor do we limit God to “sufficiency” when he has promised “abundance” (Jn. 10.10)

 

[Benadam]

I’m posting this primarily for Edwin’s parousal but anyone else’s as well, and welcome a sincere exchange of ideas.

I wrote this on another thread but it offers solid evidence for Mary Queen of Heaven.

This way of conceptualizing Mary’s role is dependent on the understanding of how bonds between persons are the structural supports of Heaven.

It’s the nature of the bond between persons and the tension, if any, with the perception of that bond that make relations function of disfunction. There is a place called heaven because there are persons who’s relationships are lived in accordance with the proper order of the bond between them.

The Creator’s relationship with the Word functions properly within the order inherent in a bond between father and son. Spiritual bonds exclude gender so the order of the parental bond between the Father and Son is no different than the order of the parental bond between Mary and Jesus. The order is the same between fathers of persons and mothers of persons in that it’s order is parental.

There is a difference in dignity between the bonds of divine persons and the bonds between human persons, but in Jesus their dignity is equalized. The wedding at Cana demostrates that. Revealing the dignity of Mary’s maternal bond was at the heart of Jesus’s comment " Woman what has this to do with you and I?" Somehow I can imagine what her face expressed. It surely reminded Him of the proper order of and perhaps questioned the dignity of their bond. In lay terms it said " Cuz I’m your Mother! Does that change because you are divine?" I don’t believe Jesus said this out of his need for the answer or to test His mothers understanding or authority, I think He was acting out of His Love for her by making sure that the dignity of her bond with Him as mother was recognized as one that shared equally in the dignity of His bond with his divine Father. She was making managerial decision here. The management of which was quite exclusive, that of the Father’s plan.

It puts the warmest feeling in my heart of the Love between family members I can imagine when the Divine Father and Son treat Mary this way. That warmth can be felt because and only because she is my mother too.

So that demonstrates how parental bond between persons transcend gender and nature in dignity. Mary is the only human who shares a bond with the Trinity equal in dignity with the bond between the Persons of the Trinity. This is the metaphysical cause of her function as dispenser of all Graces.

When Christ made her our mother he shared that bond with it’s divine dignity through Mary to the rest of man. That parental bond is the metapysical conduit of Grace to mankind. This also explains how bonds between persons are the structural supports of heaven and why Mary is called Queen of Heaven.