Hail, Holy Queen

[kobudodave]

You are trying to interpret the Woman as the church. Never in the rest of the Bible is the church referred to as a Woman (as far as I know). In Revelations, it is referred to as the Bride. Why would it then refer to it in two different ways? Isn’t that confusing? God is not the author of confusion.

The Church did not give birth to Christ. And we are not offspring of the Church, as your interpretation would indicate chapter 12 saying in Revelations.

Time? This is a book of Prophesy. It is not bound to a telling of time. Numbers are symbolic to something, and you have no way of knowing how to interpret them. So why do you suspect that 1260 days is actually 1260 years? No prophesy, in as far as I know, can be interpreted by us in any literal sense. God is the only one who can show us what it is to mean. And I believe that this was a task entrusted to the Catholic Church.

What makes your interpretation more correct than another? I have hear MANY interpretations of this passage. Most of them wildly different from each other. I believe that this is the kind of confusion that Satan causes, and why God has given us the institution of the Church, to be the pillar and bulwark of faith, where the gates of Hades can never prevail over it. There HAS to be a singular interpretation, and there HAS to be an institution that holds that true interpretation. It is the deposit of faith, passed on by the apostles, to their disciples, like Timothy and others, that, through the Holy Spirit, that can interpret these prophesies. Not you, not me, no one can. Only the Church. And the Catholic Church has the history and the apostolic succession to prove it.

 

[DD2007]

And Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, left the keys with Peter. Christ left a visible head of His earthly church and that head is Peter, or the Pope.

The keys that brought to mind the keys of the kingdom of David were symbolic of a leadership role in founding the Church, Peter also penned some scripture under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing in scripture or even in the 1st century writings of the ECF’s that says that Peter’s authority was transferred to Linus, or anyone else.

The apostolic age passed with the death of the last apostle. The Church is now apostolic because it follows the teachings of the apostles in the New Testament.

The prayer that is the subject of this thread is idolatrous and the practice of praying to Mary isn’t in the New Testament. It is not Apostolic teaching and is therefore error brought on by wolves like Christ spoke of.

When Christ taught us to pray he directed us to pray to God.

Matthew 6:9-13
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

We know that if prayer is directed at anything other than God it is idolatrous and should be pointed out as sinful and in conflict with the commandments.

Psalms 73:
[25] Whom have I in heaven but thee?
And there is nothing upon earth that I desire besides thee.
[26] My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever.
[27] For lo, those who are far from thee shall perish;
thou dost put an end to those who are false to thee.
[28] But for me it is good to be near God;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
that I may tell of all thy works.

 

[broski234]

The keys that brought to mind the keys of the kingdom of David were symbolic of a leadership role in founding the Church, Peter also penned some scripture under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing in scripture or even in the 1st century writings of the ECF’s that says that Peter’s authority was transferred to Linus, or anyone else.

The apostolic age passed with the death of the last apostle. The Church is now apostolic because it follows the teachings of the apostles in the New Testament.I agree with this statement.
=/QUOTE]

The parallel passage is from Isaiah 22. The keys were not symbolic. They were given to the prime minister of the kingdom. When the king was absent, the prime minister was in charge. This shows a lack of knowledge that you have on a subject you should not draw from. There are tons of ECF’s that support apostolic succession. Jurgens “The Faith of the Early Fathers” is filled with them.

 

[CentralFLJames]

There is only one Universal Christian Church. It includes baptized members of all the Christian denominations…

This is a pure heretical notion of an invisible church - yet more evidence of Protestant nonsence & double-speak. There is only one Body of Christ and One Visible Church.

The Biblical Church is Visible And One.

More here:
scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-V

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says **a kingdom divided against **itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build **my ‘Church’ **(not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - **Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history. **

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. **How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals? **

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, **one faith and one baptism. **This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - **Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ. **

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ’s Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God.** It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose.** We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is “catholic,” which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed.** This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.**

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

That problem, or apparent problem, is easily resolved; God works one heart at a time…hopefully yours will be next.

I see. But to get into the queue you have to first come into the Church - not stand outside in the rain of Protest with the rest of those dividing Christ’s one seamless garment and word among themselves…

James
P.S. Weren’t you the same person that was banned a while ago or are you back again for a heart-transplant?

 

[CentralFLJames]

The Shepard is Christ. The flock is Christians.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28,** the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock**. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, ‘He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.’ Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” **Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428). **

Do you think you have more insight into The Church than the original Church Fathers that were around 1500 or more years before you? These were all Catholic.

James

 

[DD2007]

DD2007;4854186:

The keys that brought to mind the keys of the kingdom of David were symbolic of a leadership role in founding the Church, Peter also penned some scripture under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing in scripture or even in the 1st century writings of the ECF’s that says that Peter’s authority was transferred to Linus, or anyone else.

The apostolic age passed with the death of the last apostle. The Church is now apostolic because it follows the teachings of the apostles in the New Testament.I agree with this statement.

=/QUOTE]

The parallel passage is from Isaiah 22. The keys were not symbolic. They were given to the prime minister of the kingdom. When the king was absent, the prime minister was in charge. This shows a lack of knowledge that you have on a subject you should not draw from. There are tons of ECF’s that support apostolic succession. Jurgens “The Faith of the Early Fathers” is filled with them.

I own Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers as well as Jesus Peter and the Keys. I have seen no evidence for any authority given to Peter passed to another from the earliest times 1st century. I don’t see anything really stating this until the 3rd century.

Jesus used Peter as an instrument to build up the Church and to pen some scripture. There is no evidence that any of that power was tranferrable to another. The mandate was for Peter, not any others who would minister to the Church after Peter was gone. Christ did not say to any of the Apostles that they could transfer their apostolic powers to others who had not been eyewitnessses.

1. Peter was an eyewitness apostle.
2. By grace God revealed who Christ was to Peter.
3. There are no apostles left after the ones that saw Christ died.
4. The New Testament writings were left for us as Apostolic Authoritative scripture.

 

[broski234]

I own Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers as well as Jesus Peter and the Keys. I have seen no evidence for any authority given to Peter passed to another from the earliest times 1st century. I don’t see anything really stating this until the 3rd century.

Quotes from the ECF’s before the 3rd Century:

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed…Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6 (c. A.D. 110).

“For, since ye are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, ye may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as ye indeed do, so without the bishop ye should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 2 (c. A.D. 110).

“And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.” **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
**
“I must not omit an account of the conduct also of the heretics–how frivolous it is, how worldly, how merely human, without seriousness, without authority, without discipline, as suits their creed…At one time they put novices in office; at another time, men who are bound to some secular employment; at another, persons who have apostatized from us, to bind them by vainglory, since they cannot by the truth. Nowhere is promotion easier than in the camp of rebels, where the mere fact of being there is a foremost service. And so it comes to pass that today one man is their bishop, to-morrow another; to-day he is a deacon who to-morrow is a reader; to-day he is a presbyter who tomorrow is a layman. For even on laymen do they impose the functions of priesthood.” Tertullian, On Prescription Against Heretics, 41 (c. A.D. 200).

“Since, according to my opinion, the grades here in the Church, of bishops, presbyters, deacons, are imitations of the angelic glory, and of that economy which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who, following the footsteps of the apostles, have lived in perfection of righteousness according to the Gospel. For these taken up in the clouds, the apostle writes, will first minister [as deacons], then be classed in the presbyterate, by promotion in glory (for glory differs from glory) till they grow into ‘a perfect man.’” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 13 (A.D. 202). Continued…

 

[broski234]

I own Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers as well as Jesus Peter and the Keys. I have seen no evidence for any authority given to Peter passed to another from the earliest times 1st century. I don’t see anything really stating this until the 3rd century.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” **Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
**
“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.’” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

“But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,–a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. …To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine…Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith.” Tertullian, Prescription against the Heretics, 33 (A.D. 200).

 

[CentralFLJames]

I own Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers as well as Jesus Peter and the Keys. I have seen no evidence for any authority given to Peter passed to another from the earliest times 1st century. I don’t see anything really stating this until the 3rd century.

Jesus used Peter as an instrument to build up the Church and to pen some scripture. There is no evidence that any of that power was tranferrable to another. The mandate was for Peter, not any others who would minister to the Church after Peter was gone. Christ did not say to any of the Apostles that they could transfer their apostolic powers to others who had not been eyewitnessses.

1. Peter was an eyewitness apostle.
2. By grace God revealed who Christ was to Peter.
3. There are no apostles left after the ones that saw Christ died.
4. The New Testament writings were left for us as Apostolic Authoritative scripture.

Give it up DD. You want to make yourself your own interpretative authority and deny the one true apostolic authority of The Catholic Church.

Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church
2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth.

Matt. 1:1 - Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven.

Luke 1:32 - the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given “the throne of His father David.”

Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” While most Protestants argue that the kingdom of heaven Jesus was talking about is the eternal state of glory (as if Peter is up in heaven letting people in), the kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. In using the term “keys,” Jesus was referencing Isaiah 22 (which is the only place in the Bible where keys are used in the context of a kingdom).

Isaiah 22:22 - in the old Davidic kingdom, there were royal ministers who conducted the liturgical worship and bound the people in teaching and doctrine. But there was also a Prime Minister or chief steward of the kingdom who held the keys. Jesus gives Peter these keys to His earthly kingdom, the Church. This representative has decision-making authority over the people - when he shuts, no one opens. See also Job 12:14.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus’ “keys” undeniably represent authority. By using the word “keys,” Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This “binding and loosing” authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish “halakah,” or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. Peter’s “keys” fit into the “gates” of Hades which also represent Peter’s pastoral authority over souls.

Matt. 23:2-4 - the “binding and loosing” terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees “bind” heavy burdens but won’t move (“loose”) them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.

Matt. 13:24-52 -Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is the universal Church on earth, not the eternal state of glory. Therefore, the keys to the “kingdom of heaven” refers to the authority over the earthly Church.

Matt. 25:1-2 - Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish, further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth. This kingdom cannot refer to the heavenly kingdom because there are no fools in heaven!

Mark 4:26-32 - again, the “kingdom of God” is like the seed which grows and develops. The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church.

Luke 9:27 - Jesus says that there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the “kingdom of God.” This kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Christ, which Jesus established by His death and resurrection on earth.

Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree (not the heavenly state of glory which is boundless and infinite).

Matt 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:21 - these verses provide more examples of the " kingdom of God" as the kingdom on earth which is in our midst.

1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the “kingdom of God” usually means an earthly kingdom.

1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.

Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.

Luke 12:41-42 - when Peter asks Jesus if the parable of the master and the kingdom was meant just for the apostles or for all people, Jesus rhetorically confirms to Peter that Peter is the chief steward over the Master’s household of God. “Who then, (Peter) is that faithful and wise steward whom his master will make ruler over His household…?”

Ezek. 37:24-25 - David shall be king over them forever and they will have one shepherd. Jesus is our King, and Peter is our earthly shepherd.

more here: scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-II

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from prior]

III. Peter’s Keys and Papal Succession
Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an “office” and a “station.” An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God’s people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church “Pope.” The Pope is the father of God’s people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ’s representative on earth.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ’s kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

Acts 1:20 - we see in the early Church that successors are immediately chosen for the apostles’ offices. Just as the Church replaced Judas, it also replaced Peter with a successor after Peter’s death.

John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus’ creation of Peter’s office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father.

Matt. 23:2 - this shows that the Jews understood the importance of succession to the chair and its attendant authority. Here, Jesus respects Moses’ seat (“cathedra”) of authority which was preserved by succession. In the Church, Peter’s seat is called the “cathedra,” and when Peter’s successor speaks officially on a matter of faith or morals, it may rise to the level of an “ex cathedra” (from the chair) teaching.

Eph. 3:21 - this divine word tells us that Jesus Christ’s Church will exist in all generations. Only the Catholic Church can prove by succession such existence. Our Protestant brothers and sisters become uncomfortable with this passage because it requires them to look for a Church that has existed for over 2,000 years. This means that all the other Christian denominations (some of which have been around even less than one year!) cannot be the church that Christ built upon the rock of Peter.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-III

James

 

[broski234]

Jesus used Peter as an instrument to build up the Church and to pen some scripture. There is no evidence that any of that power was tranferrable to another. The mandate was for Peter, not any others who would minister to the Church after Peter was gone. Christ did not say to any of the Apostles that they could transfer

**Acts 1:15-26 **- the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

**Acts 13:3 **- apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

**2 Tim. 1:6 **- Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands. .

These passages clearly speak of succession!

 

[DD2007]

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28,** the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock**. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, ‘He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.’ Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428).

Do you think you have more insight into The Church than the original Church Fathers that were around 1500 or more years before you? These were all Catholic.

James

AD 251 and AD 428 are far beyond the Apostolic age. For all we know the Church could have been in total heresy by then all except for in a few local areas. We know that at the time of Augstine that exact scenario was the case with the widespread embrace of the Arian heresy. The ECF writings past the 1st century and the earlist part of the 2nd are only good for historical records and thouhtful spiritual examination.

They in no way should be thought to convey the authoritative teachings of the Apostles.

Here are some words about the Shepherd and one Mediator from scripture.

1 Timothy 2:5
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 10:14
[14] I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

Hebrews 13:20
[20] Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

1 Peter 2:22-25
[22] He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
[23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
[24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[25] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 5:1-4
[1] So I exhort the elders among you, **as a fellow elder **and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed.
[2] Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly,
[3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
[4] **And when the chief Shepherd **is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.

Revelation 7:17 Edit Notice: I placed the above verse in the OP. I have edited and placed the correct one here.

[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

[kobudodave]

Thank you Brock… I was just about to do the same thing.

DD, not ALL powers were passed from the apostles to their successors. Obviously, there were some powers that were only intended to show as a sign to those around that they came from God. Since there were enough witnesses to those acts, it would seem that it is no longer needed. However, there are powers still needed, and afforded to the ordinaries of the Church, such as binding and loosing, absolving in the name of Christ, giving blessings, etc… These are through the Holy Spirit, so that the work of the Lord might continue to spread to the world.

 

[kobudodave]

AD 251 and AD 428 are far beyond the Apostolic age. For all we know the Church could have been in total heresy by then all except for in a few local areas. We know that at the time of Augstine that exact scenario was the case with the widespread embrace of the Arian heresy. The ECF writings past the 1st century and the earlist part of the 2nd are only good for historical records and thouhtful spiritual examination.

They in no way should be thought to convey the authoritative teachings of the Apostles.

Here are some words about the Shepherd and one Mediator from scripture.

1 Timothy 2:5
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 10:14
[14] I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

Hebrews 13:20
[20] Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

1 Peter 2:22-25
[22] He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
[23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
[24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[25] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 5:1-4
[1] So I exhort the elders among you, **as a fellow elder **and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed.
[2] Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly,
[3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
[4] **And when the chief Shepherd **is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.

Revelation 7:17
[1] So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed.
[2] Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly,
[3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
[4] And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.

The Bible speaks against you here. It says, in Matthew chapter 16 that the gates of Hades shall NEVER prevail against the Church. What you are purporting is heresy. You speak against the word of the Lord.

 

[broski234]

AD 251 and AD 428 are far beyond the Apostolic age. The ECF writings past the 1st century and the earlist part of the 2nd are only good for historical records and thouhtful spiritual examination.

God is the Lord of history. What happened in history, particularly in Christian history, is very important for us to know. The early Christians are important witnesses as to what Christianity was in their time, and thus to what it ought to be in our time. So to simply dismiss logic and history out–of–hand as not being important perspectives to consider when it comes to Christian teaching and practice, is to dismiss the God Who gave us our brains and told us to use them in loving Him, and to dismiss the testimony of those who gave their lives to defend and pass on the Faith that we hold so dear.

 

[broski234]

Thank you Brock… I was just about to do the same thing.

DD, not ALL powers were passed from the apostles to their successors. Obviously, there were some powers that were only intended to show as a sign to those around that they came from God. Since there were enough witnesses to those acts, it would seem that it is no longer needed. However, there are powers still needed, and afforded to the ordinaries of the Church, such as binding and loosing, absolving in the name of Christ, giving blessings, etc… These are through the Holy Spirit, so that the work of the Lord might continue to spread to the world.

:tiphat:

 

[kobudodave]

Also, if you can’t trust the successors of the apostles, then who CAN you trust after they died? The NT wasn’t collected for all to see. not for many, MANY years did that happen. IT was taught orally, through tradition. Still is, we now have the supplement of the Bible to help to inerrantly perceive what was originally oral.

There are still epistles that are missing from the NT, ones mentioned by Paul that he wrote earlier to various places. But we still have the deposit of faith, through which is protected by the Holy Spirit, that we rely on to provide us truth, as well as the Bible.

 

[DD2007]

.

These passages clearly speak of succession!

There has always been ordination. However no one has the authority of an Apostle unless he saw Christ and was chosen by Christ to be an apostle.

Below Peter clearly spells out that when he dies he will provide a way that people can remember the witness of the apostles (scripture) he lets us know that his witness is true and that he didn’t make it up.

Then he goes on to tell us (because he is telling us we will have scriptures to remember these things by) that no prophecy of scripture came by a man’s interpretation of it but by the Holy Spirit moving the author to write the right things. So here Peter says he is going to write scripture or have it written for us so that we can remember and that it will be inspired by God like all of the other scriptures.

Read this carefully. It is clear. Peter didn’t expect us to believe the words of a non apostle as our authority that’s why the Spirit moved him and the other Apostles to write the 27 books we call the New Testament.

2 Peter 1:10-21
[10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
[11] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
[12] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
[13] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,
[14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
[15] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
[17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
[18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
[19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

[kobudodave]

There has always been ordination. However no one has the authority of an Apostle unless he saw Christ and was chosen by Christ to be an apostle.

Below Peter clearly spells out that when he dies he will provide a way that people can remember the witness of the apostles (scripture) he lets us know that his witness is true and that he didn’t make it up.

Then he goes on to tell us (because he is telling us we will have scriptures to remember these things by) that no prophecy of scripture came by a man’s interpretation of it but by the Holy Spirit moving the author to write the right things. So here Peter says he is going to write scripture or have it written for us so that we can remember and that it will be inspired by God like all of the other scriptures.

Read this carefully. It is clear. Peter didn’t expect us to believe the words of a non apostle as our authority that’s why the Spirit moved him and the other Apostles to write the 27 books we call the New Testament.

2 Peter 1:10-21
[10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
[11] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
[12] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
[13] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,
[14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
[15] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
[17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
[18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
[19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

So what is your point? That bit of scripture says nothing for this case in which we speak.