Hail Mary

[adstrinity]

Please do not put words in my mouth. You also never answered my question in regards to your signature of:

“Mary intercedes on the behalf of sinners, whether we ask her to or not”.

Please see post #105.

I didn’t state anything false.

That’s because your post 105 was so pathetic (I didn’t argue but merely pointed out a truth and yet you still try to take offense at it), it didn’t merit to be dignified with a reply.

 

[Reformed]

I didn’t state anything false.

That’s because your post 105 was so pathetic it didn’t merit to be dignified with a reply.

So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

 

[adstrinity]

So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

Edited my post.

Your homework for the week is to read the Bible, and you tell me. I can’t keep doing your homework for you.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Mary confessed she was a sinner (Luke 1).

Where in Luke (Chapter One) does Mary say she is a sinner? She confesses that the Lord is her savior, but that’s not the same thing.

[46] And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord,
[47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
[48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
[49] for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
[50] And his mercy is on those who fear him
from generation to generation.
[51] He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
[52] he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
[53] he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
[54] He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
[55] as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.” (Lk 1:46-55)

Can a sinner’s soul “magnify the Lord?” Can a sinner be “highly favored?”

Your statement is rooted in developing protestant tradition. It is not supported by scripture.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

Lk 2:35: “(and a sword will pierce through your own soul also),
that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”

She prays for the body of Christ, just as all members of the Body of Christ pray for each other; just as Paul exhorts christians to pray and intercede for each other.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[prodigal-sun]

So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

You have been here quite sometime now reformed and you still don’t understand that The Catholic Church is not confined to the Bible only? Only Protestants like yourself are limited to that little problem. The Church was already 400 years old before it gave the world the bible. So all it learned and wrote down came from tradition 1600 years before the silly notion sola scriptura was started. So if you wish to enclose yourself in a small box and claim complete and infallible understanding of scripture go ahead. I prefer the massive incomprable truth the the church Our Lord Jesus christ gave us.

Peace to you reformed, I pray the scales fall from your eyes but I’m done with throwing my pearls before the swine!

Amen!

 

[BSHoop96]

I think you are trying to say that your devotion to Mary cannot be supported in the Holy Scirptures.

And that is the key of our differences. This is also the major issue and driving force of the Protestant Reformation. And, this is the reason why Protestants and Roman Catholics cannot ever unite on this side of glory. LDS Christians, and Jehovah Witnesses don’t just use the Bible too, they all use their extra-biblical revelation, and their own churches teachings too over the Scriptures. The Holy Scripture has to remain the final authority from God because all forms of magisterium is made up of fallible men. And we know all Christians are not perfected in this life. Holy Scripture is God-breathed and not Sacred oral and written tradition.

Reformed, do you realize how many times we as Catholics have to go over and over this?. We do not worship Mary. The Catholic church does not teach worship of Mary. Yet people like you insist on telling us what we think, feel and do in regards to Mary because you think it appears as if we do. You do not understand the teachings of the Church, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium, and therefore you will probably never understand it. Good heavens, we ought to know if we are worshipping or not, wouldn’t you think?

I’m not saying that you may not have run in to some people that seem to take Marian devotion to the extreme. That is more prevalent in some cultures than others. But if they are truly devout and practicing Catholics they DO NOT WORSHIP Mary. Mary ALWAYS leads to Jesus, however, as a Catholic one is **not **required to have a certain amount of Marian devotion. Honor and respect, yes. If you never want to say a rosary, you don’t have to. You can take the direct route with no problem whatsoever.

You are stuck on sola scriptura. We have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. What do you think people were taught with before the bible? Who do you think compiled the bible? And btw, Mary was not the major problem for Martin Luther.

 

[justasking4]

So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

It doesn’t. A person can easily read all the Scriptures on Mary in less than a half and hour and not find any such thing.

 

[justasking4]

Reformed, do you realize how many times we as Catholics have to go over and over this?. We do not worship Mary. The Catholic church does not teach worship of Mary. Yet people like you insist on telling us what we think, feel and do in regards to Mary because you think it appears as if we do. You do not understand the teachings of the Church, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium, and therefore you will probably never understand it. Good heavens, we ought to know if we are worshipping or not, wouldn’t you think?

I’m not saying that you may not have run in to some people that seem to take Marian devotion to the extreme. That is more prevalent in some cultures than others. But if they are truly devout and practicing Catholics they DO NOT WORSHIP Mary. Mary ALWAYS leads to Jesus, however, as a Catholic one is **not **required to have a certain amount of Marian devotion. Honor and respect, yes. If you never want to say a rosary, you don’t have to. You can take the direct route with no problem whatsoever.

You are stuck on sola scriptura. We have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. What do you think people were taught with before the bible? Who do you think compiled the bible? And btw, Mary was not the major problem for Martin Luther.

You say catholics don’t worship Mary. What are the characteristics of worship?

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

You say catholics don’t worship Mary. What are the characteristics of worship?

Lets see, I see some “Bible Christians” kneeling before a collection of leather and paper–and in some of their Churches, just a podium and a “bible”–no cross–and outside, the sign says BIBLE CHURCH–no mention of Christ

I could assume they worship the Bible, not Christ–but I dont because I ask who they actually worship and I take them at their word until proven otherwise.

Please grant us the same respect.

 

[Thing]

Originally Posted by Reformed
So, where in the Bible does it reveal that Mary is interceding for all people?

It doesn’t. A person can easily read all the Scriptures on Mary in less than a half and hour and not find any such thing.

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Saints pray to God, not selfishly for themselves - but for others.

Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?

Even Saints on earth have to die, and yet they live still as they believe in Him.

21 A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. 22 So also you now indeed have sorrow; but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice; and your joy no man shall take from you. 23 And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.

The Saints are alive in heaven, they offer prayers to God, they can ask anything they wish and it will be done for them, their prayers are not selfish prayers.
Mary is a Saint => Mary prays, intercedes for us.

 

[BSHoop96]

You say catholics don’t worship Mary. What are the characteristics of worship?

Characteristics of worship? Give me a break, please. I know what’s in my heart. God knows what’s in my heart. You don’t. I’m telling you. I don’t worship Mary and the Catholic church does not teach worship of Mary. If you don’t like how it looks…sorry.

 

[water]

It doesn’t. A person can easily read all the Scriptures on Mary in less than a half and hour and not find any such thing.

Maybe you should live 33 years being Mother Mary and see how much you could handle being a Mother of Your Lord.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Characteristics of worship? Give me a break, please. I know what’s in my heart. God knows what’s in my heart. You don’t. I’m telling you. I don’t worship Mary and the Catholic church does not teach worship of Mary. If you don’t like how it looks…sorry.

Isn’t it conceivable that despite the difference that you know exists in your heart, if there is no difference in outward appearance between the two that would serve as a stumbling block to a young believer struggling to understand the distinction?

Without doubting the individual profession of anyone posting here, it seems quite plausible that if adoration and veneration are so close to one another as to be indistinguishable that some mistakenly stray into adoration when they should be giving only veneration. Or is that notion completely absurd?

 

[water]

**Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.**

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Isn’t it conceivable that despite the difference that you know exists in your heart, if there is no difference in outward appearance between the two that would serve as a stumbling block to a young believer struggling to understand the distinction?

Without doubting the individual profession of anyone posting here, it seems quite plausible that if adoration and veneration are so close to one another as to be indistinguishable that some mistakenly stray into adoration when they should be giving only veneration. Or is that notion completely absurd?

I think it is a stretch to suggest that adoration and veneration are “so close as to be indistinguishable.” IF a person were to confuse the two, it would be due to poor catechesis, and not because of any error in the doctrine. (Just my 2 cents.)

Peace,
-Robert

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

I think it is a stretch to suggest that adoration and veneration are “so close as to be indistinguishable.” IF a person were to confuse the two, it would be due to poor catechesis, and not because of any error in the doctrine. (Just my 2 cents.)

Peace,
-Robert

Well, justasking4 got a fairly curt reply when he asked about the differences between them (i.e. via his question about what are the characteristics of worship). If they are readily distinguishable, then by what characteristics would you separate them? How would one identify what is worship and what is veneration?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Well, justasking4 got a fairly curt reply when he asked about the differences between them (i.e. via his question about what are the characteristics of worship). If they are readily distinguishable, then by what characteristics would you separate them? How would one identify what is worship and what is veneration?

I guess I’m just not buying into the premise you raise - i.e. that confusion over prayer and veneration necessarily must arise because someone is kneeling in a church, grotto, etc. Perhaps you could give me an example of how the confusion you are concerned about could arise?

My other thought is: Why would one need to make a distinction between the outward appearances as between prayer to the saints and prayers to God? A person sitting in a protestant church with hands clasped could be engaged in transcendental meditation. Are protestants therefore required to post placards above their seat stating “engaged in an act of Christian Adoration?”

I think that the premise from which you start is somewhat argumentative and not really grounded in the practical aspects of christian worship.

I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be dismissive. I just think that your concerns are arising from your own protestant colored perceptions, and not from any real risk of confusion.

Does that clarify my response for you? Didn’t mean to be curt.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

How would one identify what is worship and what is veneration?

Perhaps by listening to the words of the prayer being spoken?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Perhaps by listening to the words of the prayer being spoken?

It’s precisely because of some of those words that I find this distinction difficult to parse. Take this example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4223405&postcount=196

Is a statement like “I consecrate myself wholly to you” not to be taken as worship? Or is it considered worship when offered to Jesus, but not when offered to Mary?

I’m sorry if you consider me argumentative, for it is most certainly not my intent to foster discord and unrest, but it also feels quite empty to respond to concerns with “I feel your concern is irrelevant”. I don’t know what I can give you but my word based on my personal observations that this potential confusion between veneration and worship can be a very serious stumbling block, especially for those coming out of cultures with a history of ancestor worship.