Half of God's creation survives only because of the deaths of the other half?

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Is it proper and acceptable, in any conceivable way, that this is the case? Consider the ocean depths. There we have countless, some yet undiscovered, creatures that only survive by killing and eating countless others. We as a human race would probably starve if we were forced to be vegetarians. We eat meat. We kill to do so. Some would blame this on the devil and the introduction of evil into the world by Adam and Eve. I think that is nonsense. I know fundamentalists that insist lions once ate grass. Again, nonsense. I think the answer lies in bad design of the creatures inhabiting this earth. Probably no design would be a better term. Design implies an intelligent qualified designer. No qualified designer would create a killing field like this earth appears to be. Did something go wrong? Or is the awful truth, that there is no awful truth, it’s just the way things are.
 
1 - Way to pass judgment on God.

2 - If you want to blame somebody for “imperfections” in Creation, welcome to life after the Fall of Adam (and Eve). God made Creation “very good,” but humans, the “crown of Creation,” rebelled and brought death into the world, including death and carnivorous behavior for animals.

So if you want to look for where to complain, look at human sinfulness.
 
No, I’m afraid the survival rate is much smaller. You are only considering predation, but there is also death due to resource availability. Tadpoles and other juvenile creatures are a very good example of it. Most will die because of predators but if they were to survive they would quickly exhaust the environment’s resources, in other words, the species wouldn’t have a chance. The death of most increases the survival rate of the few.

Why bad design? It’s the result of the fall. And even if it weren’t what bad or good design is, is a matter of opinion.
 
Perhaps God is the initiator of creation, not the micro-manager. Life her on earth evolved according to the available resources, IMHO, leaving us with a quite brutal reality. I do not believe that the creator had or has anything to do with the specifics of life here, or even the planet’s development.

John
 
In Judaism, there is the belief that G-d did create the earth imperfectly, but intentionally so in order for mankind to work in partnership with each other and with G-d to make it better. One might say that the imperfection of the earth was the perfect design.
 
meltzerboy said:
In Judaism, there is the belief that G-d did create the earth imperfectly, but intentionally so in order for mankind to work in partnership with each other and with G-d to make it better. One might say that the imperfection of the earth was the perfect design.
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Yes, what Meltzerboy said; and this from the CCC: I think they are very similar.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
 
That goes all the way back to the moment of Creation. According to those who are supposed to know about such things, at the moment of the Big Bang matter and antimatter were created in nearly equal quantities. However, matter and antimatter annihilated each other, and the only reason that there is anything in the universe is because matter slightly outnumber antimatter (baryon asymmetry).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryon_asymmetry

In other words, for the first few nanoseconds of creation, it was a particle eat particle world out there :rolleyes:
 
I think that you are mistaken to assume that humans and animals killing and eating other animals is a bad thing. I think that we can view this as part of Creation. Certainly there is nothing in the Old or New Testaments to indicate that eating animal flesh is a bad thing. God created fish and animals for the purpose of providing food.
 
Blessed is the one who acknowledges our Creator and His wonders, and who confesses that He is not to be questioned about what He does.(Mirzah Husayn Ali)

**I think that your prognosis that half of living creatures will survive is overly optimistic. **
 
laocmo said:
Is it proper and acceptable, in any conceivable way, that this is the case? Consider the ocean depths. There we have countless, some yet undiscovered, creatures that only survive by killing and eating countless others. We as a human race would probably starve if we were forced to be vegetarians. We eat meat. We kill to do so. Some would blame this on the devil and the introduction of evil into the world by Adam and Eve. I think that is nonsense. I know fundamentalists that insist lions once ate grass. Again, nonsense. I think the answer lies in bad design of the creatures inhabiting this earth. Probably no design would be a better term. Design implies an intelligent qualified designer. No qualified designer would create a killing field like this earth appears to be. Did something go wrong? Or is the awful truth, that there is no awful truth, it’s just the way things are.
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Another view is that God created life and made it so adaptable and so energetic that it evolved (or adapted, if you do not wish to use the E word) to fill every niche and take every advantage in order to survive. Thus we have living things which eat other living things in order to live. If life had not had such a great capacity to adapt, perhaps it would have died off a long time ago. Perhaps this is the best possible design.
 
The relation predator-prey isn’t the only one on Earth. There are many other ways beings interact with each other and allow coexisting for survival (E-coli and human beings?). It’s obviously much more complex and even simply searching on Google may give you some information.
Although you say that because of this God’s creation is entirely bad…I think you’ve forgotten the various types of plant. In my opinion, even if they don’t have any kind of intelligence and/or consciousness , plants are the most efficient and peaceful beings on Earth. It’s interesting how some beings exhibit intense brutality in order to survive and others are mostly peaceful (I’m saying “mostly” because I think of carnivorous plants) . A very expressive contrast. They are also the ones who mainly keep animals alive .

Another interesting fact is that humans have today almost zero primitive instincts left. The ones that are basic were obviously kept (reproduction, eating etc.) , but our senses lost they original capabilities. This must have happened not long ago, because otherwise I don’t see how our species could have survived, especially because of the very overly-complicated childbirth (and child development too).

I think the best way to look at the way things are is to stop involving emotions as they are often irrational and prevent you from seeing the complexity of the world. Yes, evil is not really nice, but there is always the good counterpart. Everything is dual. Certainly this version of reality can’t be the best , but it’s one of the possibilities. We can only learn how to cope with it and understand it. 🙂
 
  1. if animals didn’t eat animals then the planet would be over populated.
  2. God wanted to give us free will.
  3. if you think about it, free will would be useless in an “utopia.” In utopia, everyone would have their ideal lives. No sin, no hard choices, etc.
  4. if God created an utopia here on Earth, what would the purpose of Heaven be?
The point is: God created an utopia. It’s called Heaven. Our earthly lives prepare us to appreciate the eternal life in God’s utopia.
 
Here’s a bit of reality. God didn’t make people so they could live forever watching TV.

God made every living thing to die. That’s it’s purpose. It’s not a flaw. It’s the whole point. How can anything get deeper and want to reach a point of higher being if they weren’t constantly reminded that death was all around. And coming for them?

Give us a place where nothing dies and suddenly there’s no reason to hurry. There’s no reason to work hard on our salvation. We’ve got plenty of time. We’ve got too much time. And we’ve got no push. I mean really. Give a kid 30 minutes to do his time tables or give him a whole day. Which kid uses his time in the best way? Which one makes the job at hand a priority?

That’s God’s plan. Make working towards Him a priority. And man. It sure works, hey?

Peace.

-Trident
 
Jvrlns said:
No, I’m afraid the survival rate is much smaller. You are only considering predation, but there is also death due to resource availability. Tadpoles and other juvenile creatures are a very good example of it. Most will die because of predators but if they were to survive they would quickly exhaust the environment’s resources, in other words, the species wouldn’t have a chance. The death of most increases the survival rate of the few.

Why bad design? It’s the result of the fall. And even if it weren’t what bad or good design is, is a matter of opinion.
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Except for our gory perception I think it’s a pretty good design that keeps the animal kingdoms in check when man can’t… Thank God for vultures and skunks that love to eat dead things and bees…

And look how all the dead dinosaurs turned into coal and oil??? Useful for man?
It always amazes me how God takes something we think is bad and turns it into good…
 
Trident_H said:
Here’s a bit of reality. God didn’t make people so they could live forever watching TV.

God made every living thing to die. That’s it’s purpose. It’s not a flaw. It’s the whole point. How can anything get deeper and want to reach a point of higher being if they weren’t constantly reminded that death was all around. And coming for them?

Give us a place where nothing dies and suddenly there’s no reason to hurry. There’s no reason to work hard on our salvation. We’ve got plenty of time. We’ve got too much time. And we’ve got no push. I mean really. Give a kid 30 minutes to do his time tables or give him a whole day. Which kid uses his time in the best way? Which one makes the job at hand a priority?

That’s God’s plan. Make working towards Him a priority. And man. It sure works, hey?

Peace.

-Trident
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Love it!👍
 
phil19034 said:
  1. if animals didn’t eat animals then the planet would be over populated.
  2. God wanted to give us free will.
  3. if you think about it, free will would be useless in an “utopia.” In utopia, everyone would have their ideal lives. No sin, no hard choices, etc.
  4. if God created an utopia here on Earth, what would the purpose of Heaven be?
The point is: God created an utopia. It’s called Heaven. Our earthly lives prepare us to appreciate the eternal life in God’s utopia.
Click to expand...
:):)🙂
 
PaulfromIowa said:
I think that you are mistaken to assume that humans and animals killing and eating other animals is a bad thing. I think that we can view this as part of Creation. Certainly there is nothing in the Old or New Testaments to indicate that eating animal flesh is a bad thing. God created fish and animals for the purpose of providing food.
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I do agree about why God created certain animals (for the sole purpose of food for other species), but on the other hand, if this was their lot in life, why do they seem to try and fight, run, struggle being killed for food, its pretty clear, they DO NOT want to die.

If this was their purpose, should they not all just accept it and not try to fight against it?
 
mikekle said:
… on the other hand, if this (to provide food for other animals) was their lot in life, why do they seem to try and fight, run, struggle being killed for food, its pretty clear, they DO NOT want to die. If this was their purpose, should they not all just accept it and not try to fight against it?
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A good observation. If the fundies are correct and everything was supposed to eat grass, that would have been a good sensible design. Something obviously screwed up the design by giving animals the need and desire to eat meat. I find it silly to blame Adam and Eve and the devil for this. The idea that an innocent sinless rabbit has to suffer so that some fox can fill his belly is just wrong. It is as if God is being a very vindictive tyrant making all his creatures suffer for the failings of just two. Is it any wonder some people can not believe in such a God?
 
Code: 
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
and the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
7*The cow and the bear shall feed;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8*The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9*They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.
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Isaiah 11:6-9
 
fisherman_carl said:
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
and the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
7The cow and the bear shall feed;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9*They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:6-9
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“And the lion will lie down with the lamb,

but the lamb won’t get much sleep…”

~ Woody Allen
 
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