Halloween, Harry Potter, prompt concern from occult experts

[deb1]

OutinChgoburbs:

I hate argument. I hate it when people get so hot that they are the only ones who are right, and the rest of us are in their opinion headed for inferno if we don’t do it their way. It seems to be a form of Catholic puritanism.

Although I don’t agree with the some of the antiHarry Potter posters here, I wouldn’t exactly call them Catholic puritans. The reason is that I came from a very fundamentalist church.

Here is an example of an extreme puritanical view on fantasy. This site lists ways to tell if a book is fit for a Christian Child. It includes that there should be no talking animals, no romance, no adventure stories that make a child want to be more then an ordinary parent.

keepersofthefaith.com/Articles/Howdowepick.asp

I don’t think that anyone on this forum is advocating this extreme but there are fundamentalists that do. Makes me glad to be becoming Catholic.

 

[amarischuk]

deb1:

Although I don’t agree with the some of the antiHarry Potter posters here, I wouldn’t exactly call them Catholic puritans. The reason is that I came from a very fundamentalist church.

Here is an example of an extreme puritanical view on fantasy. This site lists ways to tell if a book is fit for a Christian Child. It includes that there should be no talking animals, no romance, no adventure stories that make a child want to be more then an ordinary parent.

keepersofthefaith.com/Articles/Howdowepick.asp

I don’t think that anyone on this forum is advocating this extreme but there are fundamentalists that do. Makes me glad to be becoming Catholic.

I too like the liberality usually found within Catholicism however, having been involved in some very traditionalist groups (Opus Dei) in the Church, I must say that Catholic puritanism and fundamentalism does exist.

Would you like it is the Index was brought back?

Peter Abelard,
Erasmus
Nicholas. Machiavelli
John Calvin
John Milton
Malebranche
Baruch Spinoza
John. Locke
Bishop Berkeley
David Hume
Condillac
d’Holbach
d’Alembert
La Mettrie
Condorcet
Daniel. Defoe
Jonathan. Swift
Swedenborg
Laurence. Sterne
Emmanuek. Kant
H. Heine
**J. S. Mill
**G. D’Annunzio
H. Bergson…

Pascal
Voltaire…

John Milton
Gustave Flaubert
A. Dumas
Francis Bacon
Victor Hugo
**Blaise Pascal **
Edward Gibbon
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Pierre Larousse
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/indexlibrorum.html

What the heck did they read in Catholic Universities before 1966? Even Jacques Maritain studied under Henri Bergson and Maritain credits Bergson with reintroducing metaphysics into philosophy (along with preventing his suicide).

Just some thoughts.

Adam

**

**

 

[contemplative]

amarischuk:

I too like the liberality usually found within Catholicism however, having been involved in some very traditionalist groups (Opus Dei) in the Church, I must say that Catholic puritanism and fundamentalism does exist.

Would you like it is the Index was brought back?

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.
And you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-33)

Imitation of Christ
Thomas Kempis
The Second Chapter

HAVING A HUMBLE OPINION OF SELF

EVERY man naturally desires knowledge; but what good is knowledge without fear of God? Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars. He who knows himself well becomes mean in his own eyes and is not happy when praised by men.

If I knew all things in the world and had not charity, what would it profit me before God Who will judge me by my deeds?

Shun too great a desire for knowledge, for in it there is much fretting and delusion. Intellectuals like to appear learned and to be called wise. Yet there are many things the knowledge of which does little or no good to the soul, and he who concerns himself about other things than those which lead to salvation is very unwise.

Many words do not satisfy the soul; but a good life eases the mind and a clean conscience inspires great trust in God.

Thus far you knock those Catholics who homeschool their children and Opus Dei. Is there anyone else you want to add to your list Catholic puritans?

Your arguements and rebuttals only serve to inflate your seemingly overinflated pride and ego. They do nothing to diminish or discount the over glorification of evil in Harry Potter Books.

 

[paramedicgirl]

amarischuk:

And Paramedicgirl:
You should be very happy that the Canadian government is providing your child with an excellent biligual education.

I am, and I agree it is an excellent use of education dollars.

amarischuk:

However, if you are as familiar with the education system as you claim (please provide evidence that 93% of education spending goes to teacher’s wages) than you will know that the BC teachers cannot go on strick since the Campbell government deemed them an essential service. They are threatening limited job action over the elimination of extracurricular activities and a wage dispute (8% to 22% over three years).Adam

I was shown a “pie chart” while I was on the school PAC that revealed how much money was allocated to wages, educational material, etc. So this information came form the school board itself, but it was several years ago.

And of course I am aware of the essential service categorization. Likewise, paramedics fit under that category. We also have a very strong union, but I am not of that mentality where I will go on strike and picket to get more than what I have. I am thankful enough for what God has provided me with. I hate the greed and the mindset of people who always want more than what they have been given.

You claim that the familes you know who homeschooled have provided their children with better education than the families that haven’t. My experience has been the contrary. In the three families who homeschool at our small parish, I cannot think of any children who continued on to university. The only one I know who did go you university from our parish (and his siblings now go to the Catholic school) was only homeschooled briefly in elementary school.

Yes, I can attest to the fact that some homeschooled kids are better off educationally than others who get shuffled through the school system. One Catholic mom in our town, wife of a doctor, has homeschooled 3 of her 4 kids for the last 5 years. Three are now in university, and one had gone back to high school for grade 12. He got 95% on the Provincial grade 12 math exam, higher than the other kids who were educated publicly. He is in Univesity now, studying to be a doctor. Her youngest son is homeschooled in grade 10, and can hold his own with any of his brothers who are discussing university issues. The program she uses? Seton Home schooling setonhome.org/

A second Catholic family who home schools uses the provincial DESK program, and their daughter just completed grades 7 & 8 in 1 year. So in my experience, homeschooling, provided it is done by parents who have a commitment to their childrens education is capable of being superior to what public education provides.

amarischuk:

I personally did not experience an “absence of God” in the public school classroom. Certainly ther were no prayers, but groups were permitted to meet and use the school property before class for prayer services. Many of my teachers I would frequently see at Mass on Sunday. In social studies we would study world religions and were encouraged to look into our own religious heritage (especially being French in a French school). And even the biology teacher gave the warning before starting the section on evolution that it is a theory and you need not accept all aspects of it (but you still need to study it).
Adam

At our elementary school they have condoned “spirit days” where the grade 7 leadership class organizes the whole school to dress up on Fridays. Not a bad thing, and fun for the kids. But the principal did not intervene when they chose a Gothic day. Look at all the school shootings in the US. How many of those were Goths? Is Goth something we want our kids to aspire to? Our own high school had problems with student Goths when they were threatening to burn others alive at the stake and gouge out their eyes. Of course, the police became involved and the group dispersed.

And also, when one boy was talking about God to his classmates, his mom got a phone call and was told that there is not to be any mention of God in public schools. So, go ahead and dress up as a Goth, but don’t mention God!

 

[contemplative]

paramedicgirl:

Yes, I can attest to the fact that some homeschooled kids are better off educationally than others who get shuffled through the school system.

Same thoughts here…
I have witnessed first hand that Catholic parents who choose to home school their children are often times the people who are most discerning about what their children encounter. In a public school setting this is just about impossible to do. Teachers of all types and background set the course your child will take all the whole day long.

To clump together ‘homeschooled children’ and ‘puritans’ and ‘H. Potter haters’ is just plain old bias opinion.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am wondering if anyone has taken the time to listen to the podcasts from the CatholicInsider I linked to above.

At least one Catholic priest sees some Christian themes in the Harry Potter stories.

 

[paramedicgirl]

ByzCath:

I am wondering if anyone has taken the time to listen to the podcasts from the CatholicInsider I linked to above.

At least one Catholic priest sees some Christian themes in the Harry Potter stories.

Yes, I checked out that link, but perhaps I need headphones to hear it? Nothing to click on to help me out there.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

paramedicgirl:

Yes, I checked out that link, but perhaps I need headphones to hear it? Nothing to click on to help me out there.

Click on this link

catholicinsider.com/scripts/harrypotter.php

Then if you have iTunes click on the first link of the page to subsrcibe to the podcast or scroll down further and you will see a link that says Download File / Listen. click that and you will be able to listen to an mp3 file.

They are listed in reverse order so to listen to the first one you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page,

Hope that helps.

 

[Red_Meg]

My kids and I have read and enjoyed all the Harry Potter books. I have seen no sudden interest in witchcraft or the occult on any of my childrens’ part because of these books. We are big sci-fi/fantasy fans in my house, and the Potter books fit in that category just fine.

We get an especially big kick out of the Weasley family, since we also have seven kids, although not all redheads.
I also like the tone of the books overall. No, Harry is not a perfect, flawless person-- most fiction characters aren’t. But he does exhibit some very good character traits like loyalty and courage that I wouldn’t mind seeing my own children imitate. I also appreciate the fact that, particularly in the later books, emphasis is placed on the difference between doing what is easy and what is right-- another lesson I hope my children will absorb.

Frankly, if I was the type to be overly concerned about a pop culture influence on my kids (which I’m not), I’d probably worry more about Star Wars. Its philosophy, while subtle, is definitely of the manichaeistic/dualistic/fleshisbad/spiritisgood variety. I allow my kids to watch them, but I also talk with them to make sure they understand what’s wrong with that outlook.

Best regards,

Margaret

 

[amarischuk]

contemplative:

Thus far you knock those Catholics who homeschool their children and Opus Dei. Is there anyone else you want to add to your list Catholic puritans?

Your arguements and rebuttals only serve to inflate your seemingly overinflated pride and ego. They do nothing to diminish or discount the over glorification of evil in Harry Potter Books.

Since you are so fond of quotations (I should point out that the othership of ‘the Imitaiton of Christ’ is still disputed and should not necessarily be ascribed to Kempis): “Is it the custom in this country, blockhead, to address knights-errants in such a way?” (Cervantes, 67)

Once again you not only display remarkble ignorance but also petty envy in addressing me:

“All vices, Sancho, bring certain pleasures with them, but envy brings nought but discord, rancour and rage.”(Cervantes, 268)

This very weekend I am staying at the Opus Dei house in Nagasaki while visiting a friend. Do not be so presumptuous as to assume you know my opinions. My only comments on Opus Dei were:

“having been involved in some very traditionalist groups (Opus Dei) in the Church, I must say that Catholic puritanism and fundamentalism does exist.”

This is far from ‘knocking’ Opus Dei, though I do recognize that some members are overzealous (and combined with theological ignorance, that is a dangerous combination).

And concerning the existence of Catholic Puritanism, even the Catholic historian Christopher Dawson notes:

"There are occasions in which Langland surpasses the Puritains thenselves in the grotesqueness of his nomenclature…The spiritual successors of Langland are to be found not in the Catholic Church…but among the Puritans. (Dawson, Medieval Essays. p. 233)

There is no absence of Catholic puritanism in the long history of the Church and this crusade against literature is simply another incarnation of the perenial battle between Chaucer and Langland, Aquinas and Tempier, Abelard and St. Bernard etc. etc. etc.:

“These two great voices of England expressed the two aspects of English character and English culture. Chaucer represents all that England had learnt from its three centuries of incorporation in continental culture. He is a courtier and a scholar who looks at the English scene with humourous detachment…Langland on the other hand, had the scanty learning of a poor clerk” (Dawson, 218-222)

Not only are you trying to be more Cathoilc than the Pope, but also more Catholic than the Inquisition of yester-year.

Your arguements and rebuttals only serve to inflate your seemingly overinflated pride and ego. They do nothing to diminish or discount the over glorification of evil in Harry Potter Books.

And THANK YOU Red Meg: you put it perfectly. Jansenism is a HERESY, but many ultra-traditionalist fanatical Papal Puritans only think that it is possible to err by learning.

These Papal-Puritans are the people who brought St. Francis and St. Ignatius before the Inquisition and condemned St Thomas’ works in 1277. Theirs is a rediculous religion of superstition and anti-intellectualism.

“[Monks and religious] believe that it’s the highest form of piety to be so uneducated that they can’t even read.” (Erasmus, 164)

I am no friend of “The Imitation of Christ”. In point of fact, it is exactly the kind of Catholic/Puritanism that I find disgusting in the traditional branches of the Catholic Church. Even Erasmus (a member of the Bretheren of Common Life) pokes fun at them.

Earlier you wrote:

Harry Potter books are pure folly and offer nothing of value

and

Harry Potter leads to nothing…zilch…zero…naught

Yet

They do nothing to diminish or discount the over glorification of evil in Harry Potter Books.

So which is it contemplative? Are the Harry Potter books evil or unless? I am reminded of the quotation of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s about being either a knave or a fool (Apologia Pro Vita Sua) which is a paraphrase of Quixote’s

“Sometimes of so acute a simplicity that it is no small enjoyment to guess whether he is simple or cunning, he has roguish tricks which condemn him as a knave, and blundering ways which confirm him a fool.” (386)

It would appear that some people have read ‘Praise of Folly’ and taken it too literally. You contemplative are doing a good job at being a ‘fool for Christ’ or atleast a fool for the idol you set up in place of Christ.

Adam

 

[amarischuk]

paramedicgirl:

II was shown a “pie chart” while I was on the school PAC that revealed how much money was allocated to wages, educational material, etc. So this information came form the school board itself, but it was several years ago.

So you concede that you cannot provide proof of the claim.

And of course I am aware of the essential service categorization.

After the fact is no evidence at all. Your previous statement about teachers was either deliberately misleading or ignorant.

Yes, I can attest to the fact that some homeschooled kids are better off educationally than others who get shuffled through the school system.

I can attest that some left handed students are worse educated than their dexterous counterparts…but that means nothing. Some children of divorced parents are better adjusted than children of unhappy couples. Some executed criminals were guilty, some aborted babies were going to be miscarried, some American soldiers have commited war crimes, some Priests are pedophiles etc.

Since we can both think of particular examples (mine includes one family of nine children, all homeschooled and none of them attending ANY post-secondary institutes), I would think that some statistics and information would show the relative value of homeschooling:

According to this site ontariohomeschool.org/universityCanada.shtml

Only two colleges in BC accept homeschooled students: UVIC and UCC (Kamloops). That leaves three out of four major BC universities (UBC, SFU (my alma mater), and OUC which is now UBCOK) along with other smaller colleges such as Douglas College and Kitsilano College.

This website of BC homeschoolers bchla.bc.ca/univ_entrance_apr1999.html also recognizes the problems faced by homeschoolers in getting accepted to and attending BC universities.

Remember that one major objection to homeschooling is not intellectual formation but social formation. Homeschooling can seriously limit the amount of social interaction that is necessary for children and important for adolescents. It is paramount to a child’s education to experience and a wide and diverse social circle. Saying that you will keep children out of the school system for fear of bullying is like saying you refuse to bath your children for fear of them drowning.

Just because children spend from 9 to 3:20 in school does not mean that they will not develop a close relationship with their family.

At our elementary school they have condoned “spirit days” where the grade 7 leadership class organizes the whole school to dress up on Fridays. Not a bad thing, and fun for the kids. But the principal did not intervene when they chose a Gothic day.

I would send my child to school in a monk’s habit or Franciscan garb and have him explain that nothing is more Gothic than the monks and friars. This modern Gothic nonsense has nothing to do with the actual Gothic beauty of Medieval architecture.

The time of the Church’s desert solitude ended with the advent of the mendicant orders. This ‘seige’ mentality is diametrically opposed to the message of the late John Paul II.

Adam

 

[contemplative]

but many ultra-traditionalist fanatical Papal Puritans only think that it is possible to err by learning.

You still have not defined what exactly youth will learn by following the H. Potter series.

amarischuk said

Since you are so fond of quotations (I should point out that the othership of ‘the Imitaiton of Christ’ is still disputed and should not necessarily be ascribed to Kempis): “Is it the custom in this country, blockhead, to address knights-errants in such a way?” (Cervantes, 67)

I am no friend of “The Imitation of Christ”. In point of fact, it is exactly the kind of Catholic/Puritanism that I find disgusting in the traditional branches of the Catholic Church. Even Erasmus (a member of the Bretheren of Common Life) pokes fun at them.

Somehow I sensed that you would not be a friend to ‘Imitation of Christ’ . These wonderful saints were great readers of this great book.

St. Therese of Lisieux (memorized the book)

St. John of the Cross

St. Ignatius of Loyola

amarischuk said

It would appear that some people have read ‘Praise of Folly’ and taken it too literally. You contemplative are doing a good job at being a ‘fool for Christ’ or at least a fool for the idol you set up in place of Christ.

I am a fool for Christ and only Christ but it is you who has set up the idol of ‘education’ in place of Christ.

One more set of people you knock are those who don’t have a college education.

amarischuk said

You claim that the familes you know who homeschooled have provided their children with better education than the families that haven’t. My experience has been the contrary. In the three families who homeschool at our small parish, I cannot think of any children who continued on to university. The only one I know who did go you university from our parish (and his siblings now go to the Catholic school) was only homeschooled briefly in elementary school.

Adam

 

[Red_Meg]

I’m not a moderator, and I don’t play one on television…

That being said, I’d like to charitably suggest that maybe this discussion of homeschooling and the Canadian educational system is getting just a tad off the original topic of Harry Potter. Perhaps it would make a fine new thread all its own?

Margaret

 

[paramedicgirl]

amarischuk:

So you concede that you cannot provide proof of the claim.

After the fact is no evidence at all. Your previous statement about teachers was either deliberately misleading or ignorant.

There is no burden of proof. You are a teacher. You know the percentage of education dollars that goes to teacher’s wages. But if you insist, then I will contact the school board and ask them for this public information so I can post it to appease you. Oh, and I am not an ignorant person, and it is uncharitable of you to say so. And neither do I deliberately mislead people. That would be a sin against the eighth commandment.

amarischuk:

Remember that one major objection to homeschooling is not intellectual formation but social formation. Homeschooling can seriously limit the amount of social interaction that is necessary for children and important for adolescents. It is paramount to a child’s education to experience and a wide and diverse social circle. Saying that you will keep children out of the school system for fear of bullying is like saying you refuse to bath your children for fear of them drowning.Adam

I am sorry that you missed my point about homeschooling. What I said was “So in my experience, homeschooling, provided it is done by parents who have a commitment to their childrens education is capable of being superior to what public education provides”.

By the way, these very same parents also make sure to enroll their kids in school-based extra-curricular sports such as volleyball and basketball so they will develop social relationships with their peers. And I realize there are lazy parents out there who do not make this type of effort, and perhaps your personal experience is with this kind of parent.

amarischuk:

I would send my child to school in a monk’s habit or Franciscan garb and have him explain that nothing is more Gothic than the monks and friars. This modern Gothic nonsense has nothing to do with the actual Gothic beauty of Medieval architecture.
Adam

I appreciate your insight into the origins of Gothic culture. After I learn more about it, I will be sure to educate my child on its early history. And yes, I do agree with you that the Gothic youth of today have warped it into something else.

 

[paramedicgirl]

ByzCath:

Click on this link

catholicinsider.com/scripts/harrypotter.php

Then if you have iTunes click on the first link of the page to subsrcibe to the podcast or scroll down further and you will see a link that says Download File / Listen. click that and you will be able to listen to an mp3 file.

They are listed in reverse order so to listen to the first one you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page,

Hope that helps.

Thanks ByzCath
I am listening to it now as I read CAF!

 

[Peace-bwu]

I have read all the Harry Potter books and really didn’t feel at all concerned until the last two. My daughter has read them until those. They are just too much for her right now.

For me the harm with Harry Potter is not that it is necessarily accurate witchcraft, but that it introduces the ideas and acceptance of witchcraft to children, sparks a curiosity about the occult, and a tolerance for it.

The effect on a child is greatly determined by their personality, parental involvement and their religous practices.

When it comes to Halloween, we focus on the Catholic nature of the holiday.

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1099.asp

 

[Peace-bwu]

I get so tired of people acting *shocked *that my home- educated children are comfortable socially! We work hard to put them in a variety of social situations, with people of all ages, races and incomes. It’s even worse when someone criticizes us without even knowing how efficiently our family operates with homeschool, soccer, Karate, CCD (I teach 5th grade so they have opportunities to have a teacher besides me) Art classes, Music classes, Gymnastics. (depending on the sport season) They each also have close friends, and many aquaintences and opportunities to work with people they don’t like. Sure, I’m exhausted much of the time, especially when my husband is on trips, but the fruits of my labor are well worth the work!

It has taken me a few years to find a homeschool group with families as dedicated to all aspects of our children’s developement, not just religous or anti-Catholics who tried to convert us. We found it with a Catholic Homeschool group.

A few of my children’s CCD teachers, over the past few years, have been professional teachers and expressed how impressed they are that the children are doing so well… I don’t know what they expect, they must have had some negative experiences with homeschool families. We go through an approved Catholic Homeschool, called Seton. Please check it out! Not all homeschool families are slackers!

We began doing it for academic reasons. My daughter was bored, so I was already supplementing her regular school work! The religious aspects are the cherry on top! Now we are doing it for both those reasons.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Peace-bwu:

For me the harm with Harry Potter is not that it is necessarily accurate witchcraft, but that it introduces the ideas and acceptance of witchcraft to children, sparks a curiosity about the occult, and a tolerance for it.
The effect on a child is greatly determined by their personality, parental involvement and their religous practices.

Well said! In listening to the website ByzCath sent, that is* so far * what I have picked up also.

 

[kage_ar]

mlchance:

And here’s my typical response to this sort of hysteria: Spellcasting 101.

– Mark L. Chance.

I am on the floor laughing - this is going to everyone I know

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Peace-bwu:

For me the harm with Harry Potter is not that it is necessarily accurate witchcraft, but that it introduces the ideas and acceptance of witchcraft to children, sparks a curiosity about the occult, and a tolerance for it.

Yup, the same is for the Lord of the Rings, the Chronicles of Narnia, and every other work of fantasy.

They also introduce children to violence and we know all children who read such things grow up as violent adults.