Halloween?

[Mickey]

The thing you don’t get or refuse to touch on is that the Christmas tree stems from Pagan customs.

I am refusing nothing. If you would like to get into an in depth conversation about the trees that many people now erect during the great feast of the Nativity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…that would be fine. There are many tales and a long history. It would probably deserve a thread of its own.

I find it rather humorous that discussions regarding the occultic celebration of modern halloween always get compared to the Christmas tree of the great feast of the Lord’s Nativity.

Either you cut off all ties to the Pagan/Occult or you realize that some, yes some pagan customs are not evil if you use them correctly.

I am still waiting for the explanation as to how all the evil, occultic, and demonic images of halloween are being used correctly.

 

[johnnyjones]

This thread is about halloween. If you care to start other threads about different subjects…you may.

Desensitizing is not a topic limited to Halloween and you brought it up.

 

[_Jenn]

Halloween celebrates occultic images of witches, ghouls, demons, blood and gore, and all types of occultic demonic images. It desensitizes the children to this.

It also shows images of carved pumpkins, and emphasizes (especially to children) getting a chance to get hordes of candy that Mom & Dad would never buy on a regular basis. LOL I have a 10 yr. old boy; his costume this year will be jeans, a black shirt, most likely his black hoodie as it will likely be too chilly to be out without it, and the glow in the dark skeleton glove hands I bought him yesterday, with his creepy metallic green skeleton type mask. Scary? Yes, to some. I’m sure a few little kids will be scared of his mask. Desensitizing him? LOL Hardly. His goal is to run around with a few friends, stopping to talk to other kids they know along the way, possibly joining up and making a larger (and safer, in this mom’s opinion) group, saying “trick or treat” and getting some candy. All he & his friends are celebrating is the sugar fest piling into their bags.

 

[johnnyjones]

I am refusing nothing. If you would like to get into an in depth conversation about the trees that many people now erect during the great feast of the Nativity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…that would be fine. There are many tales and a long history. It would probably deserve a thread of its own.

I find it rather humorous that discussions regarding the occultic celebration of modern halloween always get compared to the Christmas tree of the great feast of the Lord’s Nativity.
I am still waiting for the explanation as to how all the evil, occultic, and demonic images of halloween are being used correctly.

Why is it the Great Feast Of Our Lords Nativity?
Answer: Because it was CHANGED from it’s roots of pagan Druid ceremonies to represent something different. Your own dilemma about Halloween is being answered. The images of Halloween are being used not to force children and adults into darkness. Read from the "Catholic Update:

How can we keep the religious connection and curb pre-Christian trappings? Many parishes invite the kids to dress up for an All Saints procession at the vigil Mass. A boy wearing a crown and a velour bathrobe is St. Louis, the King of France. A girl with an armful of silk roses is the Little Flower. These cute processions are certainly a wonderful way for young Catholics to learn about the communion of saints.

But many kids are more likely to excitedly put on ghoulish makeup to get ready for parties or trick or treat. Their instincts are right: Skeletons and jack-o’-lanterns and shocking costumes are very much a part of All Hallows Eve. It’s the adults who shy away from eyeballing their own mortality.

The kids are right. Death is not cute. Halloween began with martyrs, after all, so strange makeup and skull masks are not out of line. Picture, if you will, an All Saints procession led by St. Thomas More with his head tucked under his arm. Next comes St. Lawrence, still attached to the skewer that couldn’t keep him from joking at the very moment he was being roasted alive. Kateri Tekakwitha is there, her face scarred by smallpox, the white man’s disease which decimated native American tribes.

Our tradition teems with stories of people who endured terrible things’ but never let it interfere with an underlying joy and trust in God. (Of course, even the saints who weren’t martyred deserve our recognition and imitation!)

Halloween is widely accepted by Catholicism and it seems you have put more of a hypersensitive slant on it it than necessary. Again, it is the meaning you pour into it. Read in depth. americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1099.asp

 

[Mickey]

Desensitizing is not a topic limited to Halloween

Of course it is.

 

[pnewton]

I believe that halloween has morphed into a month-long observation of demonic images, occultic behaviors, and the desensitization of evil…

I understand. Then this is the point at which we disagree. The vast majority of kids out trick or treat-ing are not engaging in the occult or celebrating paganism. I am not concerned nearly as much about desensitivation to the occult (though this can happen) as I am about more common sins that will send many more people to Hell than Satanism. The occult is not Satan’s work in the heart of Man. He is more active in attacking our weaknesses, which is far easier. Lust and Greed. Those are truly Satan’s playground.

 

[Andre1000]

…
I am still waiting for the explanation as to how all the evil, occultic, and demonic images of halloween are being used correctly.

Go to a old big church and look at the Gargoyles (or use wiki).

 

[TrixieMcGee]

I am refusing nothing. If you would like to get into an in depth conversation about the trees that many people now erect during the great feast of the Nativity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…that would be fine. There are many tales and a long history. It would probably deserve a thread of its own.

I find it rather humorous that discussions regarding the occultic celebration of modern halloween always get compared to the Christmas tree of the great feast of the Lord’s Nativity.
I am still waiting for the explanation as to how all the evil, occultic, and demonic images of halloween are being used correctly.

So basically you aren’t going to answer my question on how you can think it is fine to use the Christmas tree with it’s Pagan background. I think it is because you can’t. You can’t justify it without making your claims totally fall apart. If it is wrong to use or practice things with a Pagan background then you cannot use the Christmas tree or dye eggs at Easter. Period. Tap dancing around the issue isn’t fooling anyone.

I see dressing up and passing out candy as harmless as having a Christmas tree (with its Pagan background) and dying Easter eggs. Plus Halloween comes from the term All Hallows Eve, which is a bum bum bum, Christian Holiday. So if it is okay to adopt some Pagan traditions like the Christmas tree and the dying of Easter eggs on other Christian Holidays, why not this one. That is your connection. You think that the Christmas tree has no standing in this debate, but it does.

 

[Mickey]

Why is it the Great Feast Of Our Lords Nativity?

Because Christ was born.

Answer: Because it was CHANGED from it’s roots of pagan Druid ceremonies to represent something different.

Poppycock. A druid ceremony was not morphed into the Nativity of Christ. You are sadly mistaken. And I am still waitng for your answer as to how the ghoulish aspect of halloween has become good and holy.

The images of Halloween are being used not to force children and adults into darkness.

These cute processions are certainly a wonderful way for young Catholics to learn about the communion of saints.

If someone honors All Saints Day on November 1 every year, then they should be praying vespers the evening before (and then attending Liturgy the next day) instead of dressing in gruesome costumes and collecting candy from houses adorned with demonic symbolism.

But many kids are more likely to excitedly put on ghoulish makeup to get ready for parties or trick or treat.

Unfortunate.

Their instincts are right: Skeletons and jack-o’-lanterns and shocking costumes are very much a part of All Hallows Eve. It’s the adults who shy away from eyeballing their own mortality.

Non-patristic. Rememberance of death has nothing to do with exposing yourself to demonic images.

Death is not cute.

Christ has conquered death…but the demons would like you to believe this is not true.

Our tradition teems with stories of people who endured terrible things’ but never let it interfere with an underlying joy and trust in God. (Of course, even the saints who weren’t martyred deserve our recognition and imitation!)

I can guarantee you there is not a saint or martyr in the history of the Apostolic Church who would have approved or participated in this demonic celebration.

Halloween is widely accepted by Catholicism

I know more Catholics who take the stance of myself and Portrait…then the other way around.

“Halloween has an undercurrent of occultism and is absolutely anti-Christian.”
**Vatican liturgical expert Fr Joan Maria Canals **

 

[Mickey]

The vast majority of kids out trick or treat-ing are not engaging in the occult or celebrating paganism .

Not consciously. They are being desensitized by the world.

The occult is not Satan’s work in the heart of Man. He is more active in attacking our weaknesses, which is far easier. Lust and Greed. Those are truly Satan’s playground.

The evil one carves many paths to destruction. The subtle ones can do much damage.

 

[Mickey]

So basically you aren’t going to answer my question on how you can think it is fine to use the Christmas tree with it’s Pagan background.

I explained to you the modern meaning of the Nativity tree. It is beautiful symbolism reminding us of Christ’s birth and the tree of life. I am still waiting for an explanation as to how the ghoulish and demonic aspects of halloween have become good and holy.

I think it is because you can’t.

I already have. It is you who cannot answer my question.

I think it is very sad for people to attempt to use the Nativity tree as a justification and defense of the demonic aspect of modern halloween…which are still observed today!!!

 

[TrixieMcGee]

I explained to you the modern meaning of the Nativity tree. It is beautiful symbolism reminding us of Christ’s birth and the tree of life. I am still waiting for an explanation as to how the ghoulish and demonic aspects of halloween have become good and holy.
I already have. It is you who cannot answer my question.

I think it is very sad for people to attempt to use the Nativity tree as a justification and defense of the demonic aspect of modern halloween…which are still observed today!!!

But, you ignored the old meaning of the tree. See, the new meanings of Halloween practices like dressing up and getting candy are just to have fun. That is it. So obviously you realize that the old and new meanings (the meanings we as people assign to things) matter. Who says I practice ghoulish or demonic aspects of Halloween? That is the point you don’t get. I get dressed up as things like a train conductor this year, and pass out candy. That isn’t ghoulish or demonic in any way.You can celebrate Halloween in a good way.

Still you evade the question of the Pagan origins of the Christmas tree and we have not evaded the questions about Halloween. If it has Pagan origins and people can assign new meaning to it, why doesn’t that work with Halloween. Man, you would have not survived in my debate class. You won’t recognize the history of the Christmas tree.

 

[Mickey]

But, you ignored the old meaning of the tree.

You mean your Druid explanation? I do not accept that.

In 722 A.D., Saint Boniface, an English missionary and Benedictine monk who was known
as the “Apostle of Germany,” came upon some men about to cut down a huge oak tree to be used as a stake for a human sacrifice to Thor, one of the Norse Gods. With a mighty
blow from an axe, Saint Boniface felled the massive oak and, as the tree split apart,
a beautiful young fir tree sprang from its center. Saint Boniface informed the people
that this beautiful evergreen, whose branches pointed toward heaven, was a
holy tree…the tree of the Christ Child, symbolizing the purty of the New Faith and
the promise of eternal life. Saint Boniface then instructed them to henceforth carry
the evergreen from the wilderness, place it into their homes and surround it with
gifts symbolic of love and kindess.

See, the new meanings of Halloween practices like dressing up and getting candy are just to have fun.

Yeah…so we are told. I believe that is a deception. And the ghoulish and demonic aspect is also “to have fun?”

Who says I practice ghoulish or demonic aspects of Halloween?

Do you?

I get dressed up as things like a train conductor this year, and pass out candy.

Are you handing out candy to those who are dressing as ghoulish characters…devils…demons…spirits…witches…etc?

we have not evaded the questions about Halloween.

Yes you have. You still have not explained how the ghoulish part of halloween…so prevalent in costumes…decorated homes…and places of business…has become good and holy.

Man, you would have not survived in my debate class.

I think I am holding up quite well being outnumbered by about 10:1.

And yet you seem to be losing this debate.

 

[pnewton]

If Halloween is a way to desensitize to evil, it seems to me like the slippery slope is sliding the other way. Halloween has become more and more about kids and fun over the centuries.

 

[Mickey]

Halloween has become more and more about kids and fun over the centuries.

The age old justification. The “harmless fun” defense.

 

[TrixieMcGee]

You mean your Druid explanation? I do not accept that.

In 722 A.D., Saint Boniface, an English missionary and Benedictine monk who was known
as the “Apostle of Germany,” came upon some men about to cut down a huge oak tree to be used as a stake for a human sacrifice to Thor, one of the Norse Gods. With a mighty
blow from an axe, Saint Boniface felled the massive oak and, as the tree split apart,
a beautiful young fir tree sprang from its center. Saint Boniface informed the people
that this beautiful evergreen, whose branches pointed toward heaven, was a
holy tree…the tree of the Christ Child, symbolizing the purty of the New Faith and
the promise of eternal life. Saint Boniface then instructed them to henceforth carry
the evergreen from the wilderness, place it into their homes and surround it with
gifts symbolic of love and kindess.
Yeah…so we are told. I believe that is a deception. And the ghoulish and demonic aspect is also “to have fun?”
Do you?
Are you handing out candy to those who are dressing as ghoulish characters…devils…demons…spirits…witches…etc?
Yes you have. You still have not explained how the ghoulish part of halloween…so prevalent in costumes…decorated homes…and places of business…has become good and holy.
I think I am holding up quite well being outnumbered by about 10:1.

And yet you seem to be losing this debate.

So you deny the history of the tree. Okay, I can’t do much if you deny history that is accepted by the general populace and Historians alike. The tree has a Pagan history and you use it. I can’t have a logical discussion with someone who denies history.

I in my adult life have never had a child come to my door dressed as a witch, demon (devil), or a ghoul. Generally they are dressed as firemen, super heroes, princesses, ect. It is usually the adults and teens that dress up as scary things. My conscience is clear and I am not going to bother with someone who denies history. Plus you think you are surviving by repeating yourself and not answering questions and quoting very select parts of people and twisting words.

Here are some links, one from History.com about the true history of the Christmas tree.

christmastreehistory.net/pagan
history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees

With this I am done. If you deny history I cannot have a logical debate with you.

 

[Baelor]

Many of them dressed up in ghoulish and demonic figures.
Of course not.

That means nothing. They are dressing up as societal constructs with no intent to foment belief in ghouls/benevolent demons or any sense that their costumes are a manifestation of their own beliefs.

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Everyone should be vigilant. Halloween may be an occasion of sin for some; that does not make it one for all.

I think I am holding up quite well being outnumbered by about 10:1.

And yet you seem to be losing this debate.

If you think that, then I feel embarrassed for you – what you write is public to all and you diminish your credibility with every post.

 

[pnewton]

The age old justification. The “harmless fun” defense.

Not at all. That is not what I was responding to and I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that. Rather, I was offering as evidence against the desensitization argument that Halloween has changed in the opposite direction that one would expect. The frog in the hot water only works if the water is getting hotter. When it comes to Halloween, the water has become cooler and is now tepid. This is why I think the Catholic Church has no position on whether this is right or wrong.

 

[johnnyjones]

The Christmas tree is pagan and you changed it’s meaning. Saying over and over that it isn’t pagan doesn’t change history.

**You have rejected Catholic apologists, priests, those in service of the faith and have presented no ban on Halloween from the Magesterium. **

 

[Mickey]

That means nothing.

On the contrary.

I feel embarrassed for you

Please…there is no need for you to feel embarrassed.

you diminish your credibility with every post.

Ad hominem attacks are not very good debating tactics.