Hand Clapping During Mass

[stargazer257]

YinYangMom:

I should note, at this juncture, however, that given Paramedicgirls’ recent list of examples of people spontateously clapping without the direction of the priest is not what I would consider appropriate at all…and that’s not the type of applause I’m defending here.

Well said. All of us participating in this thread are in agreement with SO MUCH MORE than what we may not see eye-to-eye about. Worth remembering.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

The terms are horizontal worship and vertical worship… When we go horizontal we worship our fellows. This is distinctly different from communal vertical worship.

Horizontal worship does not mean we worship our fellows at all.
That is your own misperception.
Horizontal worship is worshiping with and through Christ present in the persons beside us.
It seems you forget or disregard that Christ is present in the person beside you, just as He is in you. They cannot be separated especially during the mass.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Now taht we are seeing the common ground, we can move the debate to the thread w/ the poll. I feel like a guy throwing a party that nobody wants to attend.

 

[msproule]

MariaG:

Wow! That is all I have been present for.

Then I would say that you have been very blessed over those 50 years. In my 9 years, I have never been so fortunate, even when I entered the Church. I pray that catechesis in my area may be brought to such a high level as in yours. (I am not being sarcastic when I say that!)

I do not think a birthday, unless it was Christ’s should fall under that heading.

Sorry, but the whole birthday thing is how I entered this thread. I honestly fail to see why a birthday is far less significant than many other events that have been widely considered “special circumstances”. After all, it is through God’s grace that the individual has made it through another year. For all I know, that is how the pastor of my local parish justifies its special recognition. Again, I am not trying to be a smart-aleck; I just do not know where the line gets drawn.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

I could just as well ask, What evidence do you have one must resist the idea of clapping during the Holy Sacrifice of the mass when the presiding priest calls for it as an issue that is binding on the faithful at a normal Sunday mass?

Who said one is resisting? One is making a prudential judgment about an act that is not part of the rubrics and I have seen no evidence one is obligated or should be thought of as disobedient because one chooses to refrain from such an act.

Where has She said we must **not **clap for the choir, or girl scouts, or a married couple, etc. when a priest invites us to?

She does not tells us all manner of things to refrain from, is that a green light to do it?

We don’t do things only because we’re ordered to. Jesus encourages us to do all things out of love. Where is being defiant, rude, disobedient ever supported by the Church to be examples of love?

These are intentionally pejorative chracterizations of those who see the action as irreverent. They are false characterizations.

It’s not so much that you have to because the Church orders you to. It’s that when a priest, representing the Church at the moment, asks the entire congregation to participate in somethingthen everyone should be respectful of that request and comply - even if it makes one uncomfortable. Out of love, obedience and respect** we defer our own feelings, opinions to the priest** (the Church, in this moment).

Only if such actions are understood to be legitimate. Illegitimate requests need not be obeyed. This is pushing the issue to the extreme. I reject trying to place this issue as one of obedience. Certainly Catholics are not to suspend right reason so as to be hyper obedient when the Church does not impose such a thing.

I brought up earlier St. Therese. When we are annoyed or disturbed or frustrated, that is **our **cross to bear and learn to overcome with the grace of God. He pretty much inundates us with these annoyances specifically to encourage us to rise above them, to exercise our virtues.

These are prudential matters where we may disagree and still be faithful.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

You are still missing the point that when we applaud for new members of the Church, for deacons/priests, for 50th anniversary couples, for new communicants, for RE instructors, for WYD participants we are not applauding them … we are applauding the visible evidence/proof of God’s existence and power working through His creations. If that doesn’t deserve a heartfelt uplifting Hallalujiah!! I don’t know what does.

Let us not confuse all these circumstances.

I understand from these posts that those of you uncomfortable with applause have not been able to see the true significance of it in those situations, I’m sorry that is the case for you, having only been exposed to the misuse of applause in your specific parishes…but please do not assume the way things are in your parish is how **every **parish and priest does things.

If the Church calls for clapping then that is one thing. If we want to recognize many of the things you mentioned, outside mass is the proper place.

As for the Jesus and me vs Jesus and we at the Mass…While we each individually go to Mass for our own personal reasons, it is with the underlying purpose of gathering with fellow Catholics to worship and honor God (where two or more are gathered…). That “two or more” is there for a reason. There is more power to our individual prayers when we have others praying with us, just as there is more power to our prayers as a community. That power is diminished if each of us goes to Church and blocks out mentally and emotionally those around us.

I do not advocate such things, but where do you get the idea the mass is less powerful if people act, or perceive things, differently than you?

We are called to step out of our comfort zones by reaching out spiritually, emotionally and physically to those we gather with specifically to give more power to the Sacrifice we are about to offer. We do so because this is what Jesus asked of us.

Comfort zones? Fact or opinion? We gather , as a group, to worship Christ, not each other.

I just get the impression when I read phrases (not necessarily by you) about how people around me distract me, they’re singing too loud, they want to hold my hand at the our father (which is still acceptable), they aren’t kneeling, they offer the sign of peace to too many people, that this type of person is not able to appreciate and embrace the spirit of communion because they see every practice designed by the Church to promote such a spirit as ‘distracting’ and that, to me, reflects a Jesus and me position.

I am sorry you think such things. Not only is it inaccurate, but you do a disservice to those who are suffering for Christ. The issue is not only for these individuals to “offer it up”, but for us to see, within our power, the mass is celebrated as the Church intends. That is our right as Catholics. We have no authority to introduce innovations. Instead of congregationalism, how about we strive for authentic unity?

“Jesus and we” position is that which is happy to have so many other people come to help me with my prayers, to share the joy and excitement I feel when in God’s house because I know that when two are more are gathered in His name, He is most pleased. When someone extends their hand in the Our Father I don’t like it and I cringe at first, but to me, it is a sign from God that **that **person spiritually needs my help at that moment, that person is asking me to share my faith and strength with him/her in their very special appeal to God, so I offer my hand back openly in service to our Lord.

That is an opinion. Not a theology.

Now, perhaps I’ve taken all those type of posts way out of proportion but that’s the best way I can explain what I meant by the “Jesus and me” position as opposed to the “Jesus and We”.

In short, Jesus and we should mean we worship together as the Church intends, focused on Christ, not each other.

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

Who said one is resisting? One is making a prudential judgment about an act that is not part of the rubrics and I have seen no evidence one is obligated or should be thought of as disobedient because one chooses to refrain from such an act.

Priest calls on the entire congregation to applaud.
Everyone **except **you applauses.
That is resistance.

Note that you are placing your judgement above that of the ordained priest presiding over the Mass.

You call it prudence.
I call it pride and arrogance.

She does not tells us all manner of things to refrain from, is that a green light to do it?

She tells us to obey our priests, bishops, magesterium.
I get the impression you take that to mean obey only when you see fit.

These are intentionally pejorative chracterizations of those who see the action as irreverent. They are false characterizations.

not intentionally pejorative at all. they come across as such, yes, but it’s just the way it appears to me, and yes, those actions appear to me to be pejorative themselves.

Only if such actions are understood to be legitimate. Illegitimate requests need not be obeyed. This is pushing the issue to the extreme. I reject trying to place this issue as one of obedience. Certainly Catholics are not to suspend right reason so as to be hyper obedient when the Church does not impose such a thing.

And this is where you and I will never agree. In the Mass, the Priest is the authority. Asking us to applaud whenever, is his perogative not ours. Applauding is not going to result in your damnation to Hell so please, offer the priest the respect he’s due - even when he’s wrong - and clap already, your hands won’t fall off and your soul won’t be tarnished.

I fully support paramedicgirl and buffalo’s consistently approaching the priest outside of mass to respectfully present their case about how those particular situations are not in line with the GIRM and to offer their support and help in any way to discourage future instances like that.

These are prudential matters where we may disagree and still be faithful.

 

[fix]

msproule:

recognition. Again, I am not trying to be a smart-aleck; I just do not know where the line gets drawn.

In Christ,
Michael

Another central point. The increase frequency of clapping may lead to the situation where it becomes spontaneous for just about anything if the act is perceived as good to do during mass. Then many, many items may seem legitimate to clap for. What next?

 

[paramedicgirl]

fix:

Another central point. The increase frequency of clapping may lead to the situation where it becomes spontaneous for just about anything if the act is perceived as good to do during mass. Then many, many items may seem legitimate to clap for. What next?

Then the Mass would become entertainment, something that Cardinal Arinze has just warned us about.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=80072

 

[Orionthehunter]

In short, Jesus and we should mean we worship together as the Church intends, focused on Christ, not each other.

I totally agree w/ you until we get to the final portion. Can’t you see how we are to come to Mass so our other worshippers can also see Christ in us and we to see Christ in others? If our fellow worshippers were a “distraction”, Mass wouldn’t be the ultimate expression of Catholic prayer and worship life, Adoration would be.

I refer you to these in the Catechism:

In the section on “Sunday Eucharist”:

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: "This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."114

2179 "A parish is a definite community of the Christian faithful established on a stable basis within a particular church; the pastoral care of the parish is entrusted to a pastor as its own shepherd under the authority of the diocesan bishop."115 It is the place where all the faithful can be gathered together for the Sunday celebration of the Eucharist. The parish initiates the Christian people into the ordinary expression of the liturgical life: it gathers them together in this celebration; it teaches Christ’s saving doctrine; it practices the charity of the Lord in good works and brotherly love:

You cannot pray at home as at church, where there is a great multitude, where exclamations are cried out to God as from one great heart, and where there is something more: the union of minds, the accord of souls, the bond of charity, the prayers of the priests.116

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

Priest calls on the entire congregation to applaud.
Everyone **except **you applauses.
That is resistance.

Note that you are placing your judgement above that of the ordained priest presiding over the Mass.

You call it prudence.
I call it pride and arrogance.

You may call it orange juice, but that does not change what it is. We have right reason, that may mean we choose not to obey what we understand to be wrong.

She tells us to obey our priests, bishops, magesterium.
I get the impression you take that to mean obey only when you see fit.

That is too broad a statement. So, when the priest says from the altar the Vatican needs to “get a clue” about female priestesses and homosexual conduct and the laity applaude, am I disobedient to refrain?

not intentionally pejorative at all. they come across as such, yes, but it’s just the way it appears to me, and yes, those actions appear to me to be pejorative themselves.

An opinion, not a fact.

And this is where you and I will never agree. In the Mass, the Priest is the authority. Asking us to applaud whenever, is his perogative not ours. Applauding is not going to result in your damnation to Hell so please, offer the priest the respect he’s due - even when he’s wrong - and clap already, your hands won’t fall off and your soul won’t be tarnished.

Again, circumstances vary. If the priests “commands” clapping it may be legitimate to clap, or it may not. The one commanding may have authority, but the one being commanded has an obligation as well. Obeying when one disagrees is fine when said command is legitimate.

Please stop trying to make this a matter of obedience. The rubrics do not call for clapping in an ordinary mass.

     Neither the priest nor the faithful are lords and masters of the liturgy         but must receive it as a gift through which, by actively and consciously         participating, they enter into communion with Christ and the Church, and         benefit from an increase of grace...

     This fundamental obedience of the assembly to Christ and the Church is         the basis for the other forms of mutual obedience within the assembly.         In a way, the priest owes obedience to the faithful in that he has a         solemn mission to lead them in prayer and worship according to the mind         of the Church. And the faithful have a corresponding right and duty to         pray and worship in communion with the universal Church...

     Thus, with respect to the liturgy, the priest is called to direct the         faithful in the Church's liturgical worship. The faithful, in turn, have         an obligation to obey him insofar as his direction corresponds to         Church's mind as expressed in the liturgical books or in the         dispositions of legitimate Church authority...

     As said, the obedience of the faithful to the priest is in virtue of         communion with the Church and consequently they have no obligation to         obey a priest who directs them to perform or omit acts contrary to         Church norms, because in doing so he fails to fulfill his mission of         leading in communion. ..

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur91.htm

 

[MariaG]

msproule:

Then I would say that you have been very blessed over those 50 years. In my 9 years, I have never been so fortunate, even when I entered the Church. I pray that catechesis in my area may be brought to such a high level as in yours. (I am not being sarcastic when I say that!)

50 years! 50 years! 50 years!?!:bigyikes:

Okay sorry, but I am only 40 years old. And I do not think we have a high level, but on this one issue at least we have reserved clapping for special occassions. ( I mean please, everyone holds hands during the Our Father in my parish )

Sorry, but the whole birthday thing is how I entered this thread. I honestly fail to see why a birthday is far less significant than many other events that have been widely considered “special circumstances”. After all, it is through God’s grace that the individual has made it through another year. For all I know, that is how the pastor of my local parish justifies its special recognition. Again, I am not trying to be a smart-aleck; I just do not know where the line gets drawn.

Since everyone has a birthday, it would be special to that person but not a special occassion for the parish. As well as, the Church celebrates feast days on the day a person died instead of when born. It is should be a greater celebration when we become present with the Lord instead of being born.

I see a huge difference between a birthday and First Communion. Or marriage. Or funerals. Everyone has a birthday,God’s Grace may have allowed them to live another year but what did they do with that year and Grace given? Not everyone has Catholic cermonies of the later kind. Where should the line be drawn? The pastor should help in that. Clearly some are failing in that duty.

In Christ,
Michael

God Bless,
Maria

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

I totally agree w/ you until we get to the final portion. Can’t you see how we are to come to Mass so our other worshippers can also see Christ in us and we to see Christ in others? If our fellow worshippers were a “distraction”, Mass wouldn’t be the ultimate expression of Catholic prayer and worship life, Adoration would be.

I refer you to these in the Catechism:

In the section on “Sunday Eucharist”:

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: "This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."114

2179 "A parish is a definite community of the Christian faithful established on a stable basis within a particular church; the pastoral care of the parish is entrusted to a pastor as its own shepherd under the authority of the diocesan bishop."115 It is the place where all the faithful can be gathered together for the Sunday celebration of the Eucharist. The parish initiates the Christian people into the ordinary expression of the liturgical life: it gathers them together in this celebration; it teaches Christ’s saving doctrine; it practices the charity of the Lord in good works and brotherly love:

You cannot pray at home as at church, where there is a great multitude, where exclamations are cried out to God as from one great heart, and where there is something more: the union of minds, the accord of souls, the bond of charity, the prayers of the priests.116

How does any of that contradict my words? We do not worship each other, we worship Christ.

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

Another central point. The increase frequency of clapping may lead to the situation where it becomes spontaneous for just about anything if the act is perceived as good to do during mass. Then many, many items may seem legitimate to clap for. What next?

This is really getting old. We all agree that this isn’t to be done willy-nilly or become common place. We have defined some rather narrow places where it might be appropriate . We don’t advocate anything more than that. We trust the prudential judgment of our Priests and Bishops (granted there might be exceptions). Would you quit raising the exception to determine the rule? If I were to use that logic, I could w/ an equal amount of logic advocate eliminating Priests and only have Bishops becuase of a few bad Priests.

We understand that you believe that the Mass is to be 100% vertical w/o anything but minimal acknowledgement of the people with you in the pews. We disagree with you. We’re just trying to explain our position.

By Fix: In short, Jesus and we should mean we worship together as the Church intends, focused on Christ, not each other.

We keep bringing it up as you keep trying to assert that the examples we site are a distraction from Christ. We are trying repeatedly that we are to be Christ of others and see Christ in others.

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

This is really getting old. We all agree that this isn’t to be done willy-nilly or become common place. We have defined some rather narrow places where it might be appropriate . We don’t advocate anything more than that. We trust the prudential judgment of our Priests and Bishops (granted there might be exceptions). Would you quit raising the exception to determine the rule? If I were to use that logic, I could w/ an equal amount of logic advocate eliminating Priests and only have Bishops becuase of a few bad Priests.

So, who has defined which occasions we must clap for? It seems you have decided which they are and then claimed that is universal for all of us?

This entire debate helps show why clapping should not be part of a Sunday mass.

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

We are trying repeatedly that we are to be Christ of others and see Christ in others.

Who disagrees with this?

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

So, who has defined which occasions we must clap for? It seems you have decided which they are and then claimed that is universal for all of us?

This entire debate helps show why clapping should not be part of a Sunday mass.

We disagree. I’ll let you hve the last word. I’m just defending practices that I’ve personally witnessed by an Archbishop who is in the Roman Curia and Secretariat of State for the Vatican in the presence of several Cardinals and 50 Bishops, by my Bishop (who is nationally known for his liturgical orthodoxy), and my Pastor. Repeatedly me and the others have expressed our disapproval of the abuses others have described.

It is either an assertion that they are fostering and practicing liturgical abuses or that you are free to ignore their invitation to express your support and appreciation for the work (by the Grace of God) accomplished by these people of God or you don’t support and appreciate these accomplishments.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I wonder if anyone has been able to find in the GIRM where clapping is mentioned. It would be good to see what we are expected to do. I keep hearing that the GIRM tells us* what to do*, and doesn’t provide instruction on what not to do.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Horizontal worship does not mean we worship our fellows at all.
That is your own misperception.
Horizontal worship is worshiping with and through Christ present in the persons beside us.
It seems you forget or disregard that Christ is present in the person beside you, just as He is in you. They cannot be separated especially during the mass.

No. I clearly understand what the terms mean. The point I was trying to make is that today’s horizontal worship is when we prioritizing the community (each other) over God.

 

[buffalo]

paramedicgirl:

I wonder if anyone has been able to find in the GIRM where clapping is mentioned. It would be good to see what we are expected to do. I keep hearing that the GIRM tells us* what to do*, and doesn’t provide instruction on what not to do.

Paraphrasing what Cardinal Arinze said about Holy Communion - any 7 year old can give you the correct answer, why do you need to ask a Cardinal?

The rubrics are not intended to provide for every innovation.