T
tom.wineman
Guest
If your hands are in the wrong position will you lose your salvation ?
- Status
M
Mysty101
Guest
Yes it is, but I was speaking of bragging about private practices on the internet, or doing anything which calls attention to yourself. If you adopt a position different from everyone around you, you do call attention to yourself, no matter what the position. Same with any “pious” practice.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
tom.wineman said:
Good question!
M
Mysty101
Guest
tom.wineman said:
Depends on what that position is.
M
Mysty101
Guest
PS I was being facetious, but that may be a thought. My Pastor always says–“be reasonable” Those who equate the orans posture with juggling or playing football are certainly not being reasonable. If the vast majority are using a particular position, this would be a good way to go.
I always try to support my Pastor and those he has placed in charge.
I always try to support my Pastor and those he has placed in charge.
M
Mysty101
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
But you didn’t quote the source. And how do you know the Pagan preceded the ancient Jews? This is not an uncommon position—it is a position of supplication which is used by many cultures.
T
tom.wineman
Guest
** Touché**
M
msproule
Guest
Again I ask, to whom was that comment addressed?
In all sincerity, I just read through everything again and I did not see where anybody was boasting about their personal piety as pretensed through private practices (alliteration added). As for drawing attention to oneself, this can be accomplished in many ways. In most of the parishes in my area, this is an unfortunate result of adhering to the GIRM.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
tom.wineman said:
Tom,
I wonder the same thing. As I observed in the other orans thread: Holding ones hands up is very much a Christian posture. The claim that it comes from pagans is nonsensicle. The criticism of the practice is also nonsensicle unless the person is clearly trying to draw attention to themselves. Moreover, the proper body posture is to stand. Those are the facts from the ancient Church. Is it wrong to kneel? No. Is it wrong to cross ones hands? Of course not.
But why are some suggesting that to following the most ancient of Christian practices is wrong? Is it jealousy?
Dan L
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Taken from this PBS report on the Catacombs…
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/catacombs.html
And we can’t, in some cases, tell whether they’re pagan or Jewish or Christian. The more elaborate burials become large rooms carved out in the rock, where they actually look like little chambers or homes, and here we see some elaborate paintings, and the rooms can be entirely decorated in frescos and much more elaborate kind of burial chambers are built within them for the bodies. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/art/orans.jpg In many cases, too, this is where we see some of the most Christian funerary arts starting to develop; whole scenes of the family of Jesus or images from gospel stories or stories from the Hebrew Scriptures or the symbol of the orans and the good shepherd. All of these reflect a burgeoning Christian iconographic tradition just as they’re on this cusp of breaking into the mainstream of Roman society.Indeed, the burgeoning Christian art, when it can be seen as distinctively Christian at all, is a sign that they really are making their way into society at large…
The catacombs hold a very interesting place in the romantic tradition about how early Christianity developed. It’s often been suggested that these were great hiding places, and the Christians would go down in the catacombs to worship during periods of persecution. But really there weren’t that regular kinds of persecution going on, and even when we find larger rooms or chambers in the catacombs, they weren’t used for regular worship. Churches didn’t go down in there to hold Eucharist and assembly on a regular basis. So, what were these rooms used for? Why did they have benches lining the walls, what looked like places where you could hold eucharistic assembly? The answer is, they’re holding meals for the dead. We know, in fact, from a number of sources, Christian and non-Christian alike, that the funerary meal, a kind of picnic with the dead, was something that most families practiced in the city of Rome. So, we have to imagine as part of their daily life, as part of their regular activity, Christians, just like their pagan neighbors, going down into the catacombs to hold memorial meals with dead members of their families.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/art/line.gif
You learn something new every day. I guess the early Christians were just as into the herd mentality as we are today!
And most of all, I love this explaination from EWTN
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
Perhaps with a little information, people who are uncomfortable with this position during Holy Mass will understand that one does not have to do it.
And as I said before, if most Diocese had a choice, this would be a moot point.
God Bless our Holy Priests!
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/catacombs.html
And we can’t, in some cases, tell whether they’re pagan or Jewish or Christian. The more elaborate burials become large rooms carved out in the rock, where they actually look like little chambers or homes, and here we see some elaborate paintings, and the rooms can be entirely decorated in frescos and much more elaborate kind of burial chambers are built within them for the bodies. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/art/orans.jpg In many cases, too, this is where we see some of the most Christian funerary arts starting to develop; whole scenes of the family of Jesus or images from gospel stories or stories from the Hebrew Scriptures or the symbol of the orans and the good shepherd. All of these reflect a burgeoning Christian iconographic tradition just as they’re on this cusp of breaking into the mainstream of Roman society.Indeed, the burgeoning Christian art, when it can be seen as distinctively Christian at all, is a sign that they really are making their way into society at large…
The catacombs hold a very interesting place in the romantic tradition about how early Christianity developed. It’s often been suggested that these were great hiding places, and the Christians would go down in the catacombs to worship during periods of persecution. But really there weren’t that regular kinds of persecution going on, and even when we find larger rooms or chambers in the catacombs, they weren’t used for regular worship. Churches didn’t go down in there to hold Eucharist and assembly on a regular basis. So, what were these rooms used for? Why did they have benches lining the walls, what looked like places where you could hold eucharistic assembly? The answer is, they’re holding meals for the dead. We know, in fact, from a number of sources, Christian and non-Christian alike, that the funerary meal, a kind of picnic with the dead, was something that most families practiced in the city of Rome. So, we have to imagine as part of their daily life, as part of their regular activity, Christians, just like their pagan neighbors, going down into the catacombs to hold memorial meals with dead members of their families.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/art/line.gif
You learn something new every day. I guess the early Christians were just as into the herd mentality as we are today!
And most of all, I love this explaination from EWTN
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
Perhaps with a little information, people who are uncomfortable with this position during Holy Mass will understand that one does not have to do it.
And as I said before, if most Diocese had a choice, this would be a moot point.
God Bless our Holy Priests!
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Please Dan, you studied it, you know, and I asked you on another thread, why did the Latin Rite go to folded hands and kneeling?
You are in an Easten Rite church, correct? None of the innovations that have been put into the Latin churches have crept into your Liturgy. An innovation is put in. Whether people like it or not, it becomes the norm. In many places, there is no other option. It’s a get used to it attitude. As I said to you before, I have friends who went to the Eastern Rite churches because they did not feel pious in their own.
I am not jealous, I am trying to get people to understand that there are other viewpoints that they have a right to hold. I brought up the Wiccan viewpoint because another poster made statements about folding hands that he did not back up. We can all pull statements out of the air to rationalize our actions.
This thread is about the Orans in Holy Mass, not private prayer. When one is in private prayer, it is private. At Holy Mass, it is not private.
I have told you of my old parish. The poor seniors in wheelchairs were in visable pain when someone grabbed their hands and pulled up to the group Orans position. In talking to many people on home visits, I would ask them why they go along with this if it hurts. I heard so many times, “Well it’s what we are suppose to do.” or “Everyone is doing it. I don’t want to look out of place.” It was heartwrenching.
Actually, my friend, I am so happy at my parish, I just want people to be happy in theirs. If suddenly everyone in your parish started laying prostrate for the Holy Mass, wouldn’t you feel different. It’s also a prayer posture. Many saints have prayed this way. Is it right for Holy Mass?
O
OhioBob
Guest
I guess I disagree with your statement. According to Mr. Webster, piety by definition is:
1 a : marked by or showing reverence for deity and devotion to divine worship
Things that show reverence to God or devotion to worship, such as postures, demeanor, silence, veils, etc. are exactly what piety is.
I suppose you could argue about the sincerity of it, but that would be like arguing about the sincerity of putting your hand over your heart for the Pledge of Allegiance or taking your hat off for the National Anthem. It is a gesture of respect - the sincerity of it doesn’t diminish the appropriateness of it.
Similarly gestures of piety are appropriate to worship of God - whether sincere or not. Hopefully with time and grace, the insincere will be converted.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I appreciate your approach. I’m not critical of it.
Dan L
I guess I’m not clear here. Orans suggest raised hands. It does not suggest that all must do it or that other’s hands are to be held. I don’t agree with holding of hands. I do agree that raising hands is an acceptable way for public prayer and it is not limited to the catacombs. I believe I addressed your question about how the folding hands posture got into the West. I said, “I do not know”. I wish I did. When I have time I’ll see if I can track it down, though I suspect that it too is an ancient practice though raising the hands seems more ancient.
I appreciate your approach. I’m not critical of it.
Dan L
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Oh thank you!!! I really would like to know and you da man to find out.
This is the progression we went through in our church. I got there and we were folding hands for the Our Father. It was what we did in every parish I was in.
We got a new DRE. She stated she is Charismatic. The staff changed when she came in. The women running the church office and the Religious Ed office, over the course of a year, became friends or relatives of hers. These people came in with the Orans prayer position at the Our Father. Fine. At the same time, the young lady running the Youth Group began to tell the kids that the Orans was THE way. Now the Youth Group was sprinkled through. Parents, who were lukewarm themselves (many just dropped kids off for mass) began because the kids were doing it. The poor seniors, (which was probably 1/2 of the parish) suddenly got back from their Winter homes to this being done in the parish. No one told them they didn’t have to, innovations are put in all the time. Shoulder pain or not, they did not want to look out of place. I got this from a lady that I visited with the homebound ministry.
At this time, the wheelchair bound parishioners still bowed their heads and folded hands.
I’m really not sure how the holding hands Orans started. I suspect that it began with friends or family. But after a while, again it became the norm. People would take the hands of the seniors and raise them up. I remember one lady who sat down to get away from it.
Except those around myself and my daughters. I made it clear to my girls that they should close their eyes and fold their hands. People around us would smile and the last two rows of the church became the non-hand holding rows. I suspect if we had stayed, it may have snowballed. (please understand, at this time NO traditonal devotions were encouraged. When a friend of mine wanted to say a Rosary for vocations before mass, she was shut down by the DRE and had to go over her head to the Priest. She is still there trying to show the other side, but is getting discouraged) I guess innovations can swing both ways.
None of this would be a problem if these seniors had a way to my new parish. If people are offered both sides of the coin, that is beautiful. Actually, it may happen anyway. The Archdiocese is beginning a plan to close and cluster parishes. That one is bleeding parishioners.
My parish back home offered one innovative mass and one conservative mass. Shouldn’t that be the way to do it?
(God Bless you, friend. You are kind and understanding)
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
Dear One,
I hope our families meet someday. I can see that there are many rude people in your Church and it is also true in some RC Churches I’ve visited. I do not think holding hands is appropriate. Yet, I find myself stuck next to people who grab my hand. I don’t wish to cause a ruckus so I usually just go along with it.
Two different masses or some instruction from your priest would address this situation I should think. The bottom line is that folding hands or raising them is appropriate. I suppose if people wish to hold hands I don’t know any rule against it but your priest should say, “Please, do not grab someone elses hand if they don’t indicate first that they wish their hand grabbed. Let us pray with joy but let us not force our ways upon others especially when the procedure is not prescribed.”
Dan L
PS I haven’t shared my testimony yet, though I eventually will. Suffice it to say, I’m a convert who is most happy to be home. I don’t wish anyone to think that I’m complaining.
I hope our families meet someday. I can see that there are many rude people in your Church and it is also true in some RC Churches I’ve visited. I do not think holding hands is appropriate. Yet, I find myself stuck next to people who grab my hand. I don’t wish to cause a ruckus so I usually just go along with it.
Two different masses or some instruction from your priest would address this situation I should think. The bottom line is that folding hands or raising them is appropriate. I suppose if people wish to hold hands I don’t know any rule against it but your priest should say, “Please, do not grab someone elses hand if they don’t indicate first that they wish their hand grabbed. Let us pray with joy but let us not force our ways upon others especially when the procedure is not prescribed.”
Dan L
PS I haven’t shared my testimony yet, though I eventually will. Suffice it to say, I’m a convert who is most happy to be home. I don’t wish anyone to think that I’m complaining.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
And so do I!
I think we would get along wonderfully!
O
OhioBob
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Actually there should be no such thing as an “innovative” mass. That is the whole problem and the reason that many of us oppose hand holding, the orans, liturgical dancing, and other liturgical “innovations”.
D
ddimitro
Guest
The hands posture has already been definitively settled by The Congregation for Divine Worship:
–It is an inappropriate “sign” at every moment of the Mass
–It has been introduced on personal initiative
Thus, to do it or encourage others to do it is disobedient to the Holy See. Now, since every one reading this has the knowledge part, exercising your free will by engaging in or continuing to use this posture at any time in public worship is committing sin.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm
–It is an inappropriate “sign” at every moment of the Mass
–It has been introduced on personal initiative
Thus, to do it or encourage others to do it is disobedient to the Holy See. Now, since every one reading this has the knowledge part, exercising your free will by engaging in or continuing to use this posture at any time in public worship is committing sin.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm
N
netmilsmom
Guest
OhioBob said:
Honestly, I feel that if the liturgical committees did not go with the “Spirit of Vatican II” we would not be in this situation.
However, we have a generation of Catholics that have had no direction, are used to the innovations and have no choice.
I think that if we give them the choice, we will be back to the more pious liturgy. If we sweep away what they are used to, we may lose them.
Also, while I am not for liturgical abuse at any time. Many of these people know how to push the envelope without crossing the line. We can’t stop what is not an abuse but we can offer an EWTN type Holy Mass and watch the people flock to it. (or maybe I’m wrong)
If you are under Pilla, you are living in a wasteland of modernism. I bet people in would jump at a more pious service there.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
I’m sorry, your link leads to the main page.
Are you talking about the Orans? I would love to read this!!!
- Status