Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[James_2_24]

This seems to also go hand-and-hand with the Charismatic movement.

When you object to hand clapping and guitar masses they are quick to point to the Psalms in defense of their position. This seems to show that those who use this argument know next to nothing of Jewish Temple Worship and worship in the synogogues…

The Psalms deal with chants that were in used in the Temple. They spoke of what Jews did elsewhere. They were not clapping hands and shouting for joy inside the temple. Besides this Jews went to the Temple only once a year to worship.

The rest of the time was spent in the synogogues. The synagogue was simply a place to chant scripture and prayers, and listen to Rabbis. Again no hands clapping and guitars.

So you will see that hands clapping and shouting and dancing were NOT part of Jewish liturgy. They are simply words in the Psalms that describe Jewish life elsewhere. Just because a Pslam says: Clap your hands or shout to the Lord… it doesn’t mean they were actually doing that at the temple. They were chants for the Temple not liturgical instruction.

If you want to see what they did in the Temple liturgy… besides reading Leviticus which describes the foundations (Psalms does not describe the Temple worship, they were the songs of the Temple worship)… read the Mishnah.

The Mishnah is the codification of the oral tradition of the rubrics for the Temple Worship, esp. for 2nd Temple during Christ’s Incarnation. Its the ‘Ordo and Customary’ of the 2nd Temple, basically

 

[Dave]

I’m not a member of the charismatic movement, but I personally enjoy a band (guitars, drums etc.) playing at mass. Maybe it’s because I’m in my 20’s and have gotten to caught up in the sound of main stream music, but for me, it’s an uplifting experience and I go out of my way to attend a youth mass in my area for this very reason.

I guess my question is this - what exactly is wrong with having this type of music at mass?

 

[WhiteDove]

Dear Dave,
IMO, it’s a matter of taste. I like both kinds of Masses, as long as the music is well done. I also enjoy Mass without music, it can be very serene.

Other people, however, dislike it, and are strong in their opinions, thinking it’s disrespectful. My suggestion to them would be to avoid Masses with music they dislike…
Sincerely, WhiteDove

 

[James_2_24]

Dave:

Maybe it’s because I’m in my 20’s…
QUOTE]

I’m in my 20s as well and I despise it.

 

[Ellen]

The only kind of music I really dislike is the folksy “guitar mass.” Now, I like having a whole band: guitar, drums, piano, flute, and I don’t mind more contemporary music (but it should be church music-not popular stuff-and approved by the Church). I also love the organ and older hymns (not terribly old, what I grew up w/-I’m 33-“On Eagles Wings”, “Be Not Afraid”, etc.).

The issue I have w/ youth and other contemporary masses is that, although I enjoy the music, I prefer to be reverant in MY posture. Therefore, I’m very uncomfortable w/ clapping and swaying, hands in the air, type of stuff, which seems to be prevalent at these masses (I don’t have a problem w/ other people worshipping this way, though, just not my cup of tea). And, if you’re the only one not doing it, people look at you like you’re an old fuddy duddy.

I do agree w/ the previous poster, though: go to a mass where you’re comfortable, if possible. If not, just bear through it, remembering that no matter how bad the music or homily, you’re still receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord. That should be the reason we’re going in the first place.

Ellen

 

[James_2_24]

WhiteDove:

IMO, it’s a matter of taste. I like both kinds of Masses, as long as the music is well done. My suggestion to them would be to avoid Masses with music they dislike…
Sincerely, WhiteDove

I really and truly believe it goes beyond “taste”. Even if i didn’t go to these masses it would still bother me cause it pains me that they exist. The reason it bothers me is because I think it is break with constant tradition of the liturgy (refer to my previous post) and reflects a ignorance today of the ancient liturgy and its deepest meaning/tradition.

Also, I think there is the tendency – when comtemporary music is used – of the mass becoming something to fulfill oneself and let off steam and stress… like aerobics for the soul rather than a reverent, solemn worship of God.

I have been to several Charismatic masses myself and it seems that people are using the mass in a sense to GET more out of it for themselves than to GIVE worship to God. Not to say that we shouldn’t get anything out of mass, but rather mass should not start to become more about US than about God.

Anyways, those are additional points. The main point is that I believe the fact that the mass has even gotten this far reflects a ignorance of the liturgy and what it means and how it was continued from Judaism.

Makes converting to the Orthodox Church very tempting sometimes. There is no messing with the liturgy there without being drawn and quartered!

 

[James_2_24]

Ellen:

… you’re still receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord. That should be the reason we’re going in the first place.

Ellen

Correct, which should be the reason any and all of us go. But it is precisely this that bothers me the most… The Lord is present and we should act accordingly… And the tradition of the Church is one of solemn reverence. It almost seems with some of these masses we have barged into the house of God and took it for our own and threw a party…

I was at a life teen mass recently where they were pumping their fists in the air, high fiving, yelling THE MASS NEVER ENDS! instead of: “The mass is over…” There was a lot of laughing and goofing around in the background as well…

 

[WhiteDove]

I’ve never been to a charismatic Mass, or any where people put their hands in the air. I would not want to go to that because I’m not into that type of public display. Do they speak in tongues at one of those? I’m very suspicious of speaking in tongues and think it’s mostly babble, with rare exceptions.

I do enjoy the Teen Mass at the Cathedral, I find it a nice change of pace and much of the music uplifting. My girls feel like they’re really participating. My favorite music is ancient music, which I listen to personally, but it is difficult to find a Mass with the classics.

 

[James_2_24]

WhiteDove:

. Do they speak in tongues at one of those? I’m very suspicious of speaking in tongues and think it’s mostly babble, with rare exceptions.

I have heard speaking in tongues at certain masses. More recently I saw a lady that seemed to have never opened her eyes during mass, but had her hands shaking violently in the air and she was moving around like crazy during the liturgy. It looked as if she was convulsing.

I have studied much on the history of speaking in tongues. In the form it is nowadays amongst Charismatics has its origins in the Asuza movement… It seems to be the montanus heresy all over again.

God Bless you

 

[system]

I have heard speaking in tongues at certain masses. More recently I saw a lady that seemed to have never opened her eyes during mass, but had her hands shaking violently in the air and she was moving around like crazy during the liturgy. It looked as if she was convulsing.

I have studied much on the history of speaking in tongues. In the form it is nowadays amongst Charismatics has its origins in the Asuza movement… It seems to be the montanus heresy all over again. :ehh: Hmmmmm!

James 2:24

Seems like I want to say OUCH! :bigyikes:

I can understand you having doubts and not understanding the Charismatic Renewal and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. But I assure from experience most of these people are very sincere in living out their Catholic Faith and growing in and using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I know many Bishops, Priest and Deacons who consider themselves Charismatic. I am one of them. It would not be prudent to judge us as being heretics because you do not understand.

God has give us all gifts that he wants us to use. I myself have been given the gifts of tounges and prophecy others have different gifts and like all gift of the Spirit as St. Paul says, “Are to be used to build up the Body of Christ.”

The Catholic Chuch is a BIG Church and has room for all of us.

God’s Blessings and Peace,
DigitalDeacon

 

[WhiteDove]

The thing that I question about tongues is that most people are babbling and no one understands. I thought that tongues in the Bible was people actually speaking in the languages of various Jews from different lands, who spoke various tongues, which were actually real languages.

I went to a charismatic Protestant church once, and people were merely all individually uttering sounds in a totally disoraganised fashion. No one was interperting. I won’t deny that they had a religious fervor, but I do doubt the validity of ‘speaking in tongues’.

 

[system]

WhiteDove:

The thing that I question about tongues is that most people are babbling and no one understands. I thought that tongues in the Bible was people actually speaking in the languages of various Jews from different lands, who spoke various tongues, which were actually real languages.

:clapping: I will tell you a true story about a friend who was born in Israel. He was the head of photography at local TV station in New Orleans. His name was Sid Erdman. His wife was a Catholic and they raised their children Catholic.

A friend brought Sid and his Wife to a Charismatic Prayer Meeting. There was a lady there singing in tounges. She herself did not understand what she was singing but Sid did. She was singing a children’s
La-La-Bye in a dialect of Hebrew from the region Sid was born. It was a La-La-Bye his mother use to sing to him as a child in Israel.

From that experience Sid became a Catholic Christian. A very devout Charismatic Catholic Christian. :bowdown:

 

[Gary_Konczal]

We do not attend mass for the sole purpose of receiving the body and blood of the Lord. That is not the sole purpose for attending mass. We can do that outside of Holy Mass. undefined

 

[Ellen]

Gary Konczal:

We do not attend mass for the sole purpose of receiving the body and blood of the Lord. That is not the sole purpose for attending mass. We can do that outside of Holy Mass. undefined

But outside of Mass you cannot experience the consecration, at the hands of the priest, of the bread and wine becoming the Body and Blood of Christ. That’s when the miracle occurs, and you experience Heaven on earth. As long as the priest is validly ordained, and following the rubrics correctly, that’s what happens, no matter how terrible the music is. We tend to forget that at every Mass a miracle occurs right in front of us, we’re too busy thinking “I don’t like this music; this is a bad homily; I don’t like the way those people are acting; I’m bored.”

 

[agname]

DigitalDeacon:

I have heard speaking in tongues at certain masses. More recently I saw a lady that seemed to have never opened her eyes during mass, but had her hands shaking violently in the air and she was moving around like crazy during the liturgy. It looked as if she was convulsing.

I have studied much on the history of speaking in tongues. In the form it is nowadays amongst Charismatics has its origins in the Asuza movement… It seems to be the montanus heresy all over again. :ehh: Hmmmmm!

James 2:24

Seems like I want to say OUCH! :bigyikes:

I can understand you having doubts and not understanding the Charismatic Renewal and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. But I assure from experience most of these people are very sincere in living out their Catholic Faith and growing in and using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I know many Bishops, Priest and Deacons who consider themselves Charismatic. I am one of them. It would not be prudent to judge us as being heretics because you do not understand.

God has give us all gifts that he wants us to use. I myself have been given the gifts of tounges and prophecy others have different gifts and like all gift of the Spirit as St. Paul says, “Are to be used to build up the Body of Christ.”

The Catholic Chuch is a BIG Church and has room for all of us.

God’s Blessings and Peace,
DigitalDeacon

The Charistmatic Movement is just Montanism revisited.

As far as the movement originating from Apostolic times…that’s a stretch. Granted, the Bible and the early Christians noted a gift of the Holy Spirit…known as “speaking in tongues.”

I would say the Charismatic Movement…or, as I call it – Neo-Montanism…was founded centuries and centuries later.

I do know that Paul preached…

"Tongues-speaking is only edifying in the Church if it is interpreted. “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the Church.” First Corinthians 14:5, 27, 28

History shows that glossolalia (tongue speaking itself) did occur within the early Church…and I also do know the early fathers were incredibly divided. Chrysostom disapproved and Augustine was mixed…Ignatius believed in speaking in tongues, but believed also in its limited usage. The Montanist movement (which holds great similarities with the Charismatic Movement) of the late second century included prophetesses, speaking in tongues, etc… was declared heretical by 99% of the church (even though, Tertullian loved the movement)…it got so bad that excommunication became involved (Serapion, bishop of Antioch spoke out against it greatly). The Canon of Moratori (the oldest list of authorized New Testament books…written in Rome circa 170 AD) mentions Montanism among heresies and rejects its teachings and writings. Speaking in tongues was extremely rare within the church after this time.

The fact is…just as cancer has signs…so does this movement.

P.S. I believe it was Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus who wrote in “Panarion” a whole chapter on Montanism. He stated that Montanists receive the Bible in full… the Trinity…the resurrection of the dead…etc…but they mislead in their teachings on gifts.

The only reason the Charistmatic Movement is being allowed right now…is to attract Protestants to the faith.

 

[agname]

For a good read…

unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/CharismaticMovement1.html

 

[agname]

The following is also a good read…

“Paul addresses the matter of ‘speaking in tongues’ as a possible problem in the church at Corinth. Although he acknowledges that the ability to speak in ‘various kinds of tongues’ and the ability to interpret these tongues are ‘spiritual gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:10), he is aware not all are to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), and advises his readers to seek ‘the higher gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:31). In 1 Corinthians 13, he makes it clear that he thinks of love as the greatest spiritual gift. Love is contrasted with speaking ‘in the tongues of men and of angels’ (1 Cor. 13:1); love endures, while tongues will cease (v. 8).”

“In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul gives a number of directions about the use of glossolalia. Speaking in tongues is not helpful to the community, he says, because it is incomprehensible (14:2). Only when there is interpretation is there edification (v. 5). When the community convenes, no more than three should speak in tongues, each in turn, and there must be an interpretation (v. 27). Paul feels that uncontrolled and uninterpreted speaking in tongues does not edify the community and that it gives outsiders the impression that believers are mad (v. 23). Yet, he allows this activity to take place, so long as it is done in orderly fashion and is accompanied by interpretation.”

“Acts 2 contains a narrative about the events of the first Pentecost after Easter. On that day, the apostles gathered together, and, after hearing a sound like wind and seeing tongues like fire, they began ‘to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance’ (Acts 2:4). The author of Acts goes on to list various nationalities of persons who heard the apostles speak, all hearing in their own languages. Although the story may suggest that the apostles spoke an incomprehensible language (v. 13), the truth is that they were speaking known foreign languages.”

 

[debi]

It is my understanding that there are two types of speaking in tongues. The one at Pentecost where people HEARD their own language when a foreign language (to them) was spoken. The other speaking in tongues is the one of (for want of a better word) babble that needs interpretation. Both are gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The charismatic movement practices the second.
I have attended Masses that involve hand clapping, guitars and more that still followed the rubrics of the Mass. I do not believe that this is an attempt to “recruit” protestants into our faith. It is just another way for people to become more a part of the Mass. It is not a production but a way of particiaption for personalities or cultures or generations different from what we grew up with.
It is not to be condemned only avoided if it offends you.

 

[Gary_Konczal]

Ellen:

But outside of Mass you cannot experience the consecration, at the hands of the priest, of the bread and wine becoming the Body and Blood of Christ. That’s when the miracle occurs, and you experience Heaven on earth. As long as the priest is validly ordained, and following the rubrics correctly, that’s what happens, no matter how terrible the music is. We tend to forget that at every Mass a miracle occurs right in front of us, we’re too busy thinking “I don’t like this music; this is a bad homily; I don’t like the way those people are acting; I’m bored.”

 

[Gary_Konczal]

I agree, Ellen. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same playing field. Holy mass after all is a prayer, the public prayer of the church, whether or not we receive the body and blood of our Lord during mass.