Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

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Good Morning Church

Good Morning JNB

I think I discussed the Dark Night of the Soul with you once before.
Many Charismatics, including myself has experienced this empty place. It is a place where you definately are tested but can be extremely important toward Spiritual Growth.
Rather than being a detriment to the Charismatic Renewal, we are usually taught that this can happen.
This, for me was a time where I was existing Spiritually by faith and knowing God does not lie and is always with me, alone. I had no consolation.
I know one very famous Charismatic Priest who told me privately that he had no consolation for 18 years and he was ministering by the same thing I mentioned through it all.
Simply believing what he knew to be the truth, feeling nothing whatsoever. This Priest was operating in his Pastoral gifts and has an incredible gift of Healing.
It is never a good thing to just accept what they seem to be, but to find out what they actually are.

As to bad rep points, I would love to see everyone sign reps, either good or bad.
These discussions, too often appear to be personal. I think when folks get very passionate about their position, whether pro or con, they feel it necessary to get personal in order to make a point. It rarely achieves that goal.
It is best to debate the topic not the person, I think.
If I address a person as I did on this, it is only to comment on his/her last post and never his/her right to feel or practice the faith in any particular way.
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I will accept that as long as the priest follows the missal, a Charismatic style mass is valid untill Rome says it is not. But that said, as others have stated, I have little use for a mass that almost seems like an Evangelical Protestant service in nature, and a movment that had its orgins only 100 years ago in a branch of Evangelical Protestantism. The Mass in the West before Vatican II and the Divine Liturgy in the East to this day became contemplative in nature because that was/is the best way to cement peoples foundations in the faith, and brings people closer to God.

I still contend that as the “Sprit of Vatican II” dims, the Charismatic movment will continue to further wither away.
 
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JNB:
… I have little use for a mass that almost seems like an Evangelical Protestant service in nature, and a movment that had its orgins only 100 years ago in a branch of Evangelical Protestantism. The Mass in the West before Vatican II and the Divine Liturgy in the East to this day became contemplative in nature because that was/is the best way to cement peoples foundations in the faith, and brings people closer to God.

I still contend that as the “Sprit of Vatican II” dims, the Charismatic movment will continue to further wither away.
I’m not sure where this movement will lead, but it’s definitely got its roots in Catholicism and not in Protestant movements. While Americans have very rigid ideas of what Catholic worship entailed pre-Vatican II, it’s skewed at best. There have always been cultural nuances in worship going back centuries. It’s included the loud singing, hand clapping, dancelike movements that are seen in Charismatic services and revivals. Bad? No, not according to centuries of popes. Haiti’s Catholics are every bit as Catholic as South America’s Catholics…who are as Catholic as France’s Catholics, or even those from the Philippines, China, New Zealand, or Africa. We have a very western European view of the mass, but the reality is that even Mozart was “too progressive” for his contemporaries and Beethoven was considered more than a little freakish.

I guess it’s just our nature to reject anything outside of our own level of experience. But it’s painful to see it called “unholy” or “protestant” to worship God. Frankly, I don’t think God’s as worried about the beat in our music as He is in the devotion in our hearts. Just remember: Sing and you pray twice!
 
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JNB:
I will accept that as long as the priest follows the missal, a Charismatic style mass is valid untill Rome says it is not. But that said, as others have stated, I have little use for a mass that almost seems like an Evangelical Protestant service in nature, and a movment that had its orgins only 100 years ago in a branch of Evangelical Protestantism. The Mass in the West before Vatican II and the Divine Liturgy in the East to this day became contemplative in nature because that was/is the best way to cement peoples foundations in the faith, and brings people closer to God.

I still contend that as the “Sprit of Vatican II” dims, the Charismatic movment will continue to further wither away.
I think, in regards to whether the Charismatic Renewal will wither is best left in the more than capable actions of the Holy Spirit. It is not what Charismatics want or what non-Charismatics want that is important. It is completely in the will of the Holy Spirit, where I am concerned.
If, as I and all Catholic Charismatics believe, this is in the will and is the work of the Holy Spirit, I can only praise God for it and do nothing whatsoever to stifle that awesome third Person of the Holy Trinity.
The Holy Father has been discerning this Renewal and testing the fruits. That is his job to do. As of now, we have his blessings and encouragement. That is good enough for me.

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The true message and spirit of Vatican II is the call to holiness of all Christians. In the short time I have been involved in the Charismatic Movement, The people I have met are all striving for an increase in holiness in their own lives. It is also one of the very few forums available for faith sharing and corpaorate worship left in the modern Catholic Church. Most of the people are involved in many different ways in their parishes and stand at the forfront of the battle for our christian culture. God Bless
 
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buffalo:
Music at Mass should not be entertainment for the congregation, rather an offering. The posture of musicians facing the people invite the congregation to view this as entertainment. Maybe that’s why the older churches had the organ and choir in the loft behind the congregation. There may be much accumulated “wisdom” there. The priest and others have become like toastmasters trying to make Mass entertaining thereby losing reverence.
Interesting view. The posture of a minister facing the congregation? Does that equate to a motivational speech? No.
I would say that some reverence may be lost, but not because of the practice. Loss of reverence happens in the heart, and overflows. Its clear in Isaiah one, we could have all the right customs, traditions, and practices, but if our hearts are not pure, its all for nothing.

I like what Christ said “be fishers of men” I am not an avid fisher, but I have fished before. Though the bait changes (to increase the catch) the message is still the same. Paul confirmed this as well by eating meat with gentiles, etc.
 
I find it interesting that within all the comments from the traditionalists and orthodox believers and their source authorities no one has mentioned that the Charismatic Renewal has been officially recognized, blessed and continues to be encouraged by pjpII. I doubt the Holy Father and the Magisterium would document their approval of something “…heretical”. The Vatican will be more than happy to send you all the information you want on how the Renewal is very much a part of your exclusive little club.
 
michael servant:
I find it interesting that within all the comments from the traditionalists and orthodox believers and their source authorities no one has mentioned that the Charismatic Renewal has been officially recognized, blessed and continues to be encouraged by pjpII. I doubt the Holy Father and the Magisterium would document their approval of something “…heretical”.
Buried somewhere within the eleven pages ( and counting) of this long thread are links to the documentation. I’m glad to post them again below. One of the great joys of being a Catholic is that our Faith is indeed “universal” and has room in it for the native Polynesian Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, the charismatic Mass, the Incan-style music Mass, etc.

Not all the flowers in this glorious garden have to bloom exactly the same way or at exactly the same time.

catholicfraternity.net/

iccrs.org/

catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm
 
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Makerteacher:
Buried somewhere within the eleven pages ( and counting) of this long thread are links to the documentation. I’m glad to post them again below. One of the great joys of being a Catholic is that our Faith is indeed “universal” and has room in it for the native Polynesian Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, the charismatic Mass, the Incan-style music Mass, etc.

Not all the flowers in this glorious garden have to bloom exactly the same way or at exactly the same time.

catholicfraternity.net/

iccrs.org/

catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm
I thought in the Roman catholic Church there was only, the CATHOLIC MASS:rolleyes: .
 
loyola rambler:
I’m not sure where this movement will lead, but it’s definitely got its roots in Catholicism and not in Protestant movements. While Americans have very rigid ideas of what Catholic worship entailed pre-Vatican II, it’s skewed at best. There have always been cultural nuances in worship going back centuries. It’s included the loud singing, hand clapping, dancelike movements that are seen in Charismatic services and revivals. Bad? No, not according to centuries of popes. Haiti’s Catholics are every bit as Catholic as South America’s Catholics…who are as Catholic as France’s Catholics, or even those from the Philippines, China, New Zealand, or Africa. We have a very western European view of the mass, but the reality is that even Mozart was “too progressive” for his contemporaries and Beethoven was considered more than a little freakish.

I guess it’s just our nature to reject anything outside of our own level of experience. But it’s painful to see it called “unholy” or “protestant” to worship God. Frankly, I don’t think God’s as worried about the beat in our music as He is in the devotion in our hearts. Just remember: Sing and you pray twice!
Actually, I suggest the HISTORY behind the “charismatic” movement be re-read here. The intent was based on the pentecostal “church”(protestant, VERY fundamentalist) when it made its way into catholic sectors in the 1970’s. The US Bishops approved it in the USA CAUTIOUSLY, due to certain deviating factors,(many catholic members who entered the renewal back then, left the CATHOLIC Church for good, to join the pentecostal “church”. Others rejected catholic doctrine, but stayed, others rejected any devotion to Mary, the Saints, the Rosary, or attended at the same time they attended catholic Parishes, protestant services in very fundamentalist groups, and bought those beliefs back to their circles of prayer held in many catholic parishes, where the Pastors did not supervise or check on them. This I know for a fact, In happended too at my OLD parish back in the 1970’s, 1980. and early 1990’s, until ONE Pastor prohibited them from gathering any meetings etc, on the parish grounds. So, all other pastors after him did the same.
 
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Makerteacher:
One of the great joys of being a Catholic is that our Faith is indeed “universal” and has room in it for the native Polynesian Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, the charismatic Mass, the Incan-style music Mass, etc. %between%
Jesus said - “You will always recognize My Church because it will have 4 Marks. It will be One, It will be Catholic, It will be Holy and it will be Apostolic”

What you have just describe is infact Catholic (universal) but it however is definiately not ONE … “houston I think we have a problem”

Is the Church of Jesus Christ missing marks?
 
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facedown:
Interesting view. The posture of a minister facing the congregation? Does that equate to a motivational speech?
The problem with the priest facing the congregation is that the priest is “suppose” to be making a sacrifice to God. The focal point of the Mass is God not the congregation. Mass is not the time to be “fisher of men”. Mass is the time to for -
  1. Adoration
  2. Thanksgiving for all that has been given
  3. Ask forgiveness & reparation
  4. Ask for blessings
 
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Mandi:
The problem with the priest facing the congregation is that the priest is “suppose” to be making a sacrifice to God. The focal point of the Mass is God not the congregation. Mass is not the time to be “fisher of men”. Mass is the time to for -
  1. Adoration
  2. Thanksgiving for all that has been given
  3. Ask forgiveness & reparation
  4. Ask for blessings
Well since 6 prots wrote the Novus Ordo, I guess it would make sense they were trying to make it as devoid as possible of any sacrificial nature, which sacrifice they deny completely.
 
Six “prots” (sic) wrote the Novus Ordo? That is news to me. But then again, I’m not a SSPX.

What do you say to this, then?

<<One thing that must be noted of the (name removed by moderator)ut of Protestant observers at Vatican II. On July 4, 1976, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship unequivocally declared: “The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”( Documentation Catholique #58, 1976, page 649). What is clear in the Pauline Rite Mass? It reflects the Eucharistic Sacrifice as a propitiatory work offered for the living and the dead; concerning the Transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ; concerning the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints; concerning prayer for the dead- are all points on which Protestants continue to disagree with the Catholic Church but all of which are explicitly present in the Pauline Rite Mass. (Whitehead, p. 85).

For those who say the Mass is Protestantized, there is one question to ask? Do you know of one Protestant church who celebrates the Pauline Rite liturgy and any of the 4 Eucharistic prayers? No, the proof is in the pudding. No Protestant services recognize any of these distinctly Catholic doctrines. >>

I mean, they were OBSERVERS, not PARTICIPANTS, according to this. The LeFebreve “letter” is to my mind more than a little suspect, as they had a vested interest in getting “rid” of the N.O.
 
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misericordie:
I thought in the Roman catholic Church there was only, the CATHOLIC MASS:rolleyes: .
That was my point: those Masses ARE all the one Catholic Mass. The traditional latin Mass is a Catholic Mass. Novus Ordo Mass is a Catholic Mass. The Charismatic Mass is a Catholic Mass. See? 😃
 
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Mandi:
Jesus said - “You will always recognize My Church because it will have 4 Marks. It will be One, It will be Catholic, It will be Holy and it will be Apostolic”

What you have just describe is infact Catholic (universal) but it however is definiately not ONE … “houston I think we have a problem”

Is the Church of Jesus Christ missing marks?
Mandi, I don’t understand how the Catholic Mass celebrated worldwide in obedience with the Magisterium is NOT “one.” :confused: The Mass is always a Catholic Mass when the rubrics and the norms are followed.

Are you saying that the music played makes some Masses “invalid” even if all the liturgical norms are followed? That the language used makes it valid? (Latin versus English versus French or Chinese or an Incan dialect?) Are you saying that they have to have a pipe organ in the Polynesian islands at their Mass, held in a open walled, palm-roofed portico, or it’s not a “valid” Mass? That by lifting their arms in praise to God during the closing hymn, the Charismatics are thereby “invalidating” the Mass?

I truly don’t understand what you are saying. Could you please elaborate for me? Thanks.
 
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EENS:
Well since 6 prots wrote the Novus Ordo, I guess it would make sense they were trying to make it as devoid as possible of any sacrificial nature, which sacrifice they deny completely.
Is “prots” a typo for profs (professors) or a slang for protestant?
 
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misericordie:
Actually, I suggest the HISTORY behind the “charismatic” movement be re-read here. The intent was based on the pentecostal “church”(protestant, VERY fundamentalist) when it made its way into catholic sectors in the 1970’s. The US Bishops approved it in the USA CAUTIOUSLY, due to certain deviating factors,(many catholic members who entered the renewal back then, left the CATHOLIC Church for good, to join the pentecostal “church”. Others rejected catholic doctrine, but stayed, others rejected any devotion to Mary, the Saints, the Rosary, or attended at the same time they attended catholic Parishes, protestant services in very fundamentalist groups, and bought those beliefs back to their circles of prayer held in many catholic parishes, where the Pastors did not supervise or check on them. This I know for a fact, In happended too at my OLD parish back in the 1970’s, 1980. and early 1990’s, until ONE Pastor prohibited them from gathering any meetings etc, on the parish grounds. So, all other pastors after him did the same.
Hi Church
Hi Misericordie

Misericordie, I have seen you post this information before. Could you please give me the source of this information so I can go look it up?
I grew up around Pentecostal churches, my grandmother was a Pentecostal. It is not much like the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
Besides there is no way any form of Protestant Pentecostalism would enourage Catholics to become more obedient to Holy Mother Church (as genuine Catholic Charismatics do) or become closer to the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist, believing totally in the Real Presence (as genuine Catholic Charismatics do). The entire concept is not true and not at all logical.
The other thing is that I have been with the Renewal from the beginning, back in the 1960s and that is just not how it happened. It is just completely incorrect. I was a witness to it and know as a fact what I am talking about.

I would like to study your source and in fact, contact the person who alleges this stuff. I would like to have a dialogue with this person. I promise to be respectful when I speak to the person.
 
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Mandi:
Jesus said - “You will always recognize My Church because it will have 4 Marks. It will be One, It will be Catholic, It will be Holy and it will be Apostolic”

What you have just describe is infact Catholic (universal) but it however is definiately not ONE … “houston I think we have a problem”

Is the Church of Jesus Christ missing marks?
Greetings Church
Greetings Mandi,

Mandi, when did Jesus say that? Jesus said you will recognize my Church by how they love one another.
I don’t think He ever made the statement you posted.
If he did, please post the source.
Thanks and God Bless,
 
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