Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[JNB]

While I will say that most Charismatic Catholics are genuine, trying to find the style of prayer that best suits them, I have to agree with Mandis comments.

The problem too often is that Charismatic style worship becomes more about style than substance, more about feelings and warm fuzzies, and sorry that is not what faith is about. Faith at times can be cold and drak, where one has to will themselves to believe in God, in the savior Christ and the Holy Sprit when all else is dark in their lives. Many saints have gone though a dark night where there were no warm fuzzies to get them though.

Worship should reflect not feelings, but a solid theological bedrock.

 

[Mfaustina1]

In spite of all the posts on this thread, I would like to “weigh in” on this topic too. I am a convert to the Catholic Church from Pentecostalism. One thing I do know for certain is that people frequently lose control and get over-emotional. I have also noticed how music is always used for emotional manipulation of those in attendance. If anyone disagrees with me then could you please explain why when it comes down to the “altar-call” that only soft “sweet” music is played and not too loudly so that those coming foward can come and “give their hearts to Christ”? Also it is only when the music is played in a fast beat that people get to “stompin’” and “a shoutin’”. This is not worship to me. It is manipulation of the senses. HOWEVER, I want to stress that those who regularly attend and adhere to this style of worship (and beliefs of the Pentecostals) are VERY serious about their faith and walk with God.

My point is that I feel that the more “robust” form of music and hand-clapping could be held at events outside of the Mass and that a sense of awe and the sacred should be maintained at Mass.

for mjs: I love acoustic guitar and agree with you that when accompanying Sacred Music, it can be quite reverent as well.

Having said all of the above, I don’t wish to criticize those who are in favor of the Charismatic Movement at all. I just don’t prefer to see it in Mass. -God bless! Mfaustina1

 

[asquared]

talk about speaking in tongues, a visiting priest from Africa after giving a beautiful homily in flawless English with a decidedly British accent, boomed out “Credo in unum Deum . . .” obviously expecting congregation to take up the chant, we just stared at him until an alert
cantor headed us into finishing the creed. Now if we could restore the latin Mass we really would be speaking in tongues, and the sooner the better, I say

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church

Since I have come to Catholic Answers, and immediately identifying myself as a Catholic Charismatic, I have received a number of pms and emails from folks encouraging me. I have been told that there is a group here who intimidates the heck out of anyone who does not think just as they do about the Catholic Church.
These same folks, one person told me, has adopted the pastoral gift of infallibility that rightfully belongs to the Holy Father, when validly used, by him. They sincerely believe they hear the truth from the Holy Spirit, we charismatics do not, they have the truth, we charismatics do not and it is their duty to stop the Charismatic Renewal, even if it is part of the will of the Holy Spirit.
These folks quote scripture where it suits their argument but ignore it when Charismatics present them with other scriptures.
Worse yet, they ignore the Holy Fathers support and encouragement for the Charismatic Renewal. The Holy Father is right when he agrees with them but wrong when he doesn’t.
This thread has brought out many of these folks. I can see it is very intidating for folks interested in Charismatic form of worship.
I can only ask you to stay open, don’t believe everything anyone tells you but find out for yourself.
Your Diocese should have a person, often a priest or deacon who works directly for the Bishop in the Charismatic Renewal. Find out for yourself.
Don’t listen to me or those who hate, yes I said hate, any form of Catholicism they don’t personally approve of.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

 

[loyola_rambler]

There’s a whole lot of personal preference and bias being dressed up as righteousness and holiness on this thread.

It’s probably a shocker, but how many realize that JPII considers himself a charismatic? OOPS, is the pontiff a heretic?

At every Youth Day I’ve ever attended, there was a great deal of strong music with rock overtones. Is that heretical? The pontiff was there, too…so was he promoting a heresy?

The point being missed is that there are cultures that are different than our own…and many are in our own communities. When I lived in Chicago, I attended masses all over town with my kids so that they could experience Catholicism at its fullest. The longest masses were always at St. Sabina’s on the south side…where the homily went well past an hour and the whole mass was easily three hours longs. Yep, there were people making spontaneous ejaculations during the mass…lots of loud AMENS and HALLELUJAHs being shouted at non-prescribed times…and the must was vibrant to say the least. It was also probably the most spiritual experience of my life and my kids were in awe of the power of the Spirit that they felt throughout their bodies.

Maybe Charismatics aren’t for everyone…but neither is Opus Dei. Somewhere there’s a mass that reaches to the very soul of each of us and whichever form it takes, as long as it’s a Catholic mass there’s nothing wrong with it at all.

 

[Makerteacher]

Mandi:

When I compare these people with those of the Charismatic movement I see no resemblence of The Catholic Church! I could go on but I have no wish to offend, only to point out that what ever they (charimatics) are about - you can call it what ever you want but don’t call it Catholic!!

Mandi ~
I am so saddened by your fairly blatant rejection of nearly 75 million of us involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal worldwide. I hope and pray that God will ease whatever fears and doubts you have about us, who are indeed your sisters and brothers in the Faith. We are devout and obedient Catholics who love Jesus and are on fire with the Holy Spirit, out to change the world and bring it back to God.

I have found that 99% of the time, what people hate about the CCR is something untrue, just as many people hate the “fact” that Catholics allegedly “worship Mary”, which of course we do not. Often they have had a single chance encounter which left them with a bad taste in their mouths, or they have had NO actual Charismatic encounters, but have only read about these things, perhaps online, from sources dubious and biased most of the time. Many of the abuses you read about are not from communities which are a part of the renewal, but are operating on their own, outside of Church approval or sanction.

Our Pope has blessed this movement and his personal preacher is a Charismatic, a powerful priest whom I have been blessed to hear speak and to say the Holy Mass, Fr. Cantamalessa. We operate under the aprroval of the Magisterium and have received lay apostolate status within the church. We are doing wonderful work in our parishes and communities as well as in thousands of mission sites worldwide, from hospitals in the poorest sections of Africa (where the miracle stories would blow your mind!) to bringing Communion to the deepest reaches of the Amazon jungles of South America. Vocations in our communities are booming. We are totally obedient to the Holy See and do NOTHING without the approval of our local bishop.

Most Charismatic Catholics I know are far MORE devout than your average Jane and Joe Catholic. They attend daily Mass, recite the Divine Office, have daily prayer time, go to frequent confessions, and participate in the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Most of them have larger families, with kids named for saints. They are SOOO traditional, you would love them!

We are no threat to the Catholic Church: we love Her and want everyone to join Her! Don’t be so afraid of us!

 

[pnewton]

loyola rambler:

Maybe Charismatics aren’t for everyone…but neither is Opus Dei.

Exatly. Sometimes we Christians sound just like the church in Corinth (I Cor. 12) where we feel like our corner of Catholicism is the best. If you feel the need to promote your mass, Latin or charismatic, guitar or organ, to other faithful Catholics, then you show an underlying belief that yours is the better part.

Furthurmore, you insinuate to your brothers and sisters that, because they are not _____________, they are not quite as holy, useful, etc. In other words, they are just a foot and not the hand like you.

The only way to understand I Corinthians chapter 12 is in light of I Corinthians chapter 13. Take the high road of charity.

 

[Mandi]

loyola rambler:

At every Youth Day I’ve ever attended, there was a great deal of strong music with rock overtones. Is that heretical? The pontiff was there, too…so was he promoting a heresy?

What you intend as sarcasim, there are many out there, who believe this is just one more reason to prove their point of “sedevacantism” - which by the way is a forbidden subject on this forum.

I personally stay away from the “Charismatic” argument because I am hard pressed to practice my charity where they are concerned. But since some keep trying to pull me into that argument accusing me of being afraid of the Charismatics, I have to answer in all truth, afraid might be a correct way of looking at it. Afraid of the further destruction of The Catholic Church. When I think of Chraismatics the same picture ALWAYS runs through my mind. It is a scene in “Jesus of Nazareth” When Salomi (sp?) dances for King Herod and in return demands the head of John the Baptist.

One of the four marks of “The Church of Jesus Christ” is that it will be “HOLY” - Holy is very easily recognized. You do not have to guess whether something is holy or not! If it is Holy it is Holy, one can not call something Holy, that is not. If I walk into a Baptist Revivel Meeting - Holy is not what comes across - Oh maybe love and praise the Lord hallelujah! comes across but definiately not holy. The Charismatic movement is exactly the same. They can argue all they want about how much they love our Lord. But they will never be able to convince anyone that it is HOLY.

 

[loyola_rambler]

Mandi:

What you intend as sarcasim, there are many out there, who believe this is just one more reason to prove their point of “sedevacantism” - which by the way is a forbidden subject on this forum.

I personally stay away from the “Charismatic” argument because I am hard pressed to practice my charity where they are concerned. But since some keep trying to pull me into that argument accusing me of being afraid of the Charismatics, I have to answer in all truth, afraid might be a correct way of looking at it. Afraid of the further destruction of The Catholic Church. When I think of Chraismatics the same picture ALWAYS runs through my mind. It is a scene in “Jesus of Nazareth” When Salomi (sp?) dances for King Herod and in return demands the head of John the Baptist.

One of the four marks of “The Church of Jesus Christ” is that it will be “HOLY” - Holy is very easily recognized. You do not have to guess whether something is holy or not! If it is Holy it is Holy, one can not call something Holy, that is not. If I walk into a Baptist Revivel Meeting - Holy is not what comes across - Oh maybe love and praise the Lord hallelujah! comes across but definiately not holy. The Charismatic movement is exactly the same. They can argue all they want about how much they love our Lord. But they will never be able to convince anyone that it is HOLY.

Wow. First off, I’m a college professor. I wasn’t intending any sarcasm and the fact that some was sensed shows a personal bias by the reader, not from the writer.

Secondly, the leap in logic that this would somehow substantiate a claim of sedevacantism is bizarre at best. That’s a huge leap that no one could possibly substantiate in writing. For the life of me, I can’t imagine why you introduced it into this discussion.

Frankly, you probably are better to stay out of discussions on this movement. The interjection of the imagery of Salome dancing is one that very, very few people would ever imagine after visiting a Charismatic service. It serves to unfairly bias the reader against something which you, as the writer, have no personal experience with and a poor understanding of…by your own admission.

I’m not a charismatic in the slightest. But I respect those who have found a greater spirituality as a result of their experiences with it. In understanding the differences in others, we can more fully understand ourselves. Some people are rigid and need a rigid paradigm. For them such an opportunity exists in the Catholic Church. Other people need less structure and more personal involvement in the holy mass. For them, that opportunity also exists in the RCC. Some of us just enjoy the rubrics of the mass, but find our spiritual enlightenment from an active stewardship…and luckily that opportunity also exists for us in the RCC. In all fairness, though, it’s terribly hurtful for anyone to compare their own needs to find spiritual fulfillment with the needs of others leading to a conclusion that someone is more or less holy, righteous or faithful than anyone else.

 

[misericordie]

James_2:24:

This seems to also go hand-and-hand with the Charismatic movement.

When you object to hand clapping and guitar masses they are quick to point to the Psalms in defense of their position. This seems to show that those who use this argument know next to nothing of Jewish Temple Worship and worship in the synogogues…

The Psalms deal with chants that were in used in the Temple. They spoke of what Jews did elsewhere. They were not clapping hands and shouting for joy inside the temple. Besides this Jews went to the Temple only once a year to worship.

The rest of the time was spent in the synogogues. The synagogue was simply a place to chant scripture and prayers, and listen to Rabbis. Again no hands clapping and guitars.

So you will see that hands clapping and shouting and dancing were NOT part of Jewish liturgy. They are simply words in the Psalms that describe Jewish life elsewhere. Just because a Pslam says: Clap your hands or shout to the Lord… it doesn’t mean they were actually doing that at the temple. They were chants for the Temple not liturgical instruction.

If you want to see what they did in the Temple liturgy… besides reading Leviticus which describes the foundations (Psalms does not describe the Temple worship, they were the songs of the Temple worship)… read the Mishnah.

The Mishnah is the codification of the oral tradition of the rubrics for the Temple Worship, esp. for 2nd Temple during Christ’s Incarnation. Its the ‘Ordo and Customary’ of the 2nd Temple, basically

I agree!!!

 

[misericordie]

Dave:

I’m not a member of the charismatic movement, but I personally enjoy a band (guitars, drums etc.) playing at mass. Maybe it’s because I’m in my 20’s and have gotten to caught up in the sound of main stream music, but for me, it’s an uplifting experience and I go out of my way to attend a youth mass in my area for this very reason.

I guess my question is this - what exactly is wrong with having this type of music at mass?

Um, it’s not about enjoyment, Mass is not entertainment, it is the Holy Sacrifice where we go to ADORE Christ, not have a good old time singing kumbayah, or jumping up and down, spinning on the floor while speaking in “tongues” and breakdancing.

 

[misericordie]

Mandi:

Sorry to sound sarcastic but if that renewal has helped build the Catholic Church it has done a pretty poor job. Catholics need to get back to being Catholic that is what will rebuild the Catholic church. It would do well for all to read the lives of the Saints in particular the Martyrs who wrote their Act of Faith with their blood. They were countless men and women of every race, nationality, class, occupation, station in life, age, and temperanment: Jews, Greeks, and Romans; rich and poor; patricians, freemen and slaves; doctors, scholars, soldiers, men of business, common laborers, popes, bishops, priests and deacons, virgins and the married; little children, youths, mature men and women, and the aged. When I compare these people with those of the Charismatic movement I see no resemblence of The Catholic Church! I could go on but I have no wish to offend, only to point out that what ever they (charimatics) are about - you can call it what ever you want but don’t call it Catholic!!

Mandi, I totally agree with you. I personally won’t go for anything born in the pentecostal “church.” I am CATHOLIC.

 

[misericordie]

loyola rambler:

There’s a whole lot of personal preference and bias being dressed up as righteousness and holiness on this thread.

It’s probably a shocker, but how many realize that JPII considers himself a charismatic? OOPS, is the pontiff a heretic?

At every Youth Day I’ve ever attended, there was a great deal of strong music with rock overtones. Is that heretical? The pontiff was there, too…so was he promoting a heresy?

The point being missed is that there are cultures that are different than our own…and many are in our own communities. When I lived in Chicago, I attended masses all over town with my kids so that they could experience Catholicism at its fullest. The longest masses were always at St. Sabina’s on the south side…where the homily went well past an hour and the whole mass was easily three hours longs. Yep, there were people making spontaneous ejaculations during the mass…lots of loud AMENS and HALLELUJAHs being shouted at non-prescribed times…and the must was vibrant to say the least. It was also probably the most spiritual experience of my life and my kids were in awe of the power of the Spirit that they felt throughout their bodies.

Maybe Charismatics aren’t for everyone…but neither is Opus Dei. Somewhere there’s a mass that reaches to the very soul of each of us and whichever form it takes, as long as it’s a Catholic mass there’s nothing wrong with it at all.

Note, many have the tendency to say “if the pope does it, I could.” Well, the Pope is NOT infallible in ALL, unless he declares something Ex-Cathedra or dogmatic. Also, as much as we all love him, he is not the only pope to ever exist. I am sure he was not the one to contract the protestant rock and rollers we hear at the world youth day masses. I am sure the Holy Father follows the dictates of tradition and Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium, where it is stated that the ORGAN, and Gregorian Chant are the main methods of musical worship. Oh, yes, also polyphony.

 

[Mandi]

loyola rambler:

Wow. First off, I’m a college professor. I wasn’t intending any sarcasm and the fact that some was sensed shows a personal bias by the reader, not from the writer.

Secondly, the leap in logic that this would somehow substantiate a claim of sedevacantism is bizarre at best. That’s a huge leap that no one could possibly substantiate in writing. For the life of me, I can’t imagine why you introduced it into this discussion.

If you did not intend that statement as sarcasm, then what? do you assume it to be truth …

The connection between sedevacantism and your statement is not bizarre. It is what they think!

And I have no wish to be banned so I will not discuss it further!
Thank you.

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Mandi, I am absolutely appalled at what you posted.

I cannot believe you would compare Charismatics with Salome dancing before Herod… an absolutely horrible and sinful incident. She demanded John the Baptist be beheaded.

I am really curious about your definition of Holy.

It would appear you believe being unkind and insulting to your brothers and sisters is Holy.

Something is really wrong here.

 

[Tedster]

robertaf:

It would appear you believe being unkind and insulting to your brothers and sisters is Holy.

Where is the insult? I could not find it. Please quote the writer’s statement if you are going to make such a judgement. Thanks.

 

[robertaf]

Mandi:

What you intend as sarcasim, there are many out there, who believe this is just one more reason to prove their point of “sedevacantism” - which by the way is a forbidden subject on this forum.

I personally stay away from the “Charismatic” argument because I am hard pressed to practice my charity where they are concerned. But since some keep trying to pull me into that argument accusing me of being afraid of the Charismatics, I have to answer in all truth, afraid might be a correct way of looking at it. Afraid of the further destruction of The Catholic Church. When I think of Chraismatics the same picture ALWAYS runs through my mind. It is a scene in “Jesus of Nazareth” When Salomi (sp?) dances for King Herod and in return demands the head of John the Baptist.

One of the four marks of “The Church of Jesus Christ” is that it will be “HOLY” - Holy is very easily recognized. You do not have to guess whether something is holy or not! If it is Holy it is Holy, one can not call something Holy, that is not. If I walk into a Baptist Revivel Meeting - Holy is not what comes across - Oh maybe love and praise the Lord hallelujah! comes across but definiately not holy. The Charismatic movement is exactly the same. They can argue all they want about how much they love our Lord. But they will never be able to convince anyone that it is HOLY.

Here ya go.
You make up your own mind. I find it very insulting to the folks in the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Tedster]

robertaf:

Here ya go.
You make up your own mind. I find it very insulting to the folks in the Charismatic Renewal.

WHERE is the insult? I read that post. Mandi expresses her feelings and opinions, but I see no insult. My mind is made up. Convince me why this is an insult.

 

[robertaf]

Hello Tedster

Well, I suppose that is one way to look at it. If you are expressing feelings or what you “picture” in your mind, it is not an insult.
Is that what I am understanding you to say? Even when you express something vile like Salomi dancing before Herod asking for the Head of John the Baptist?

I would like to know what you consider and insult then.

I guess I can say anything I want to someone as long as I word it just right.

How bout if I insult someone and then say “God Bless her” at the end?
“Mary has really gained a lot of weight, God Bless her”.
That take the sting out of an insult, too?

I don’t think so and I sure do not agree with you where the post we are talking about is concerned either.
I believe it was meant to be insulting.

 

[Tedster]

robertaf:

Is that what I am understanding you to say? Even when you express something vile like Salomi dancing before Herod asking for the Head of John the Baptist?

When Mandi made this statement, she said, “When I think of Chraismatics the same picture ALWAYS runs through my mind. It is a scene in “Jesus of Nazareth” When Salomi (sp?) dances for King Herod and in return demands the head of John the Baptist.”

I don’t think she insulted anybody, just made a statement on her thoughts.

robertaf:

I would like to know what you consider and insult then.

Gross abuse offered to another, either by word or act; an act or speech of insolence or contempt; a deprecatory remark; an affront; an indignity.(Webster’s Dictionary)

robertaf:

I guess I can say anything I want to someone as long as I word it just right.

How bout if I insult someone and then say “God Bless her” at the end?

“Mary has really gained a lot of weight, God Bless her”.

That take the sting out of an insult, too?

The fact that Mary has gained a lot of weight is a fact, not an insult. It is not an expression to offend or hurt. Maybe you could define “insult” and show me how it applies to her statements, because my mind is still made up. You have not convinced me that she insulted anyone, except possibly those who may take everything said to them insulting if it is not in line with their way of thinking.

This point is way off topic now, so I will graciously bow out.