Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[robertaf]

Greetings

I guess we will just have to disagree.
I am not a person who takes things as an insult just because they disagree. That is not me, at all. In fact, I am not very thin-skinned at all and rarely get my feelings hurt. This was not taken, in fact, as much directed toward me as it is against hundreds of God loving Catholics I have known.

I also think that we should treat each other with kindness and charity. The fact is how we treat each other is, according to Jesus, the way we treat Him. Maybe we should all read and pray over I Cor. Ch 13 before we start posting in a thread we know and admit challenges our better nature.

Funny how folks cannot disagree without the kind of images described by the poster being discussed.
I wonder if I said the Holy Mass brought these same images (Salomi…) to mind, you would be quite so generous.

 

[loyola_rambler]

Tedster:

When Mandi made this statement, she said, “When I think of Chraismatics the same picture ALWAYS runs through my mind. It is a scene in “Jesus of Nazareth” When Salomi (sp?) dances for King Herod and in return demands the head of John the Baptist.”

I don’t think she insulted anybody, just made a statement on her thoughts.
Gross abuse offered to another, either by word or act; an act or speech of insolence or contempt; a deprecatory remark; an affront; an indignity.(Webster’s Dictionary)
The fact that Mary has gained a lot of weight is a fact, not an insult. It is not an expression to offend or hurt. Maybe you could define “insult” and show me how it applies to her statements, because my mind is still made up. You have not convinced me that she insulted anyone, except possibly those who may take everything said to them insulting if it is not in line with their way of thinking.

This point is way off topic now, so I will graciously bow out.

Ted, had someone said, "I think you are the most vile, contemptable person in the world for wearing those disgusting black shoes to mass and causing strife to our Lord," wouldn’t that be considered deprecating or contemptuous? Well it’s an “opinion”, but not a well-thought, well-worded opinion and it would be considered an insult to most reasonable people…just as the symbolic comparison of Charismatics to the dance of Salome and beheading of John the Baptist would be considered poorly thought and the reference poorly worded…and yes, insulting.

As MaMere used to say, “just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you have to hurt someone with it.”

 

[Makerteacher]

loyola rambler:

Some people are rigid and need a rigid paradigm. For them such an opportunity exists in the Catholic Church. Other people need less structure and more personal involvement in the holy mass. For them, that opportunity also exists in the RCC. Some of us just enjoy the rubrics of the mass, but find our spiritual enlightenment from an active stewardship…and luckily that opportunity also exists for us in the RCC.

In all fairness, though, it’s terribly hurtful for anyone to compare their own needs to find spiritual fulfillment with the needs of others leading to a conclusion that someone is more or less holy, righteous or faithful than anyone else.

Thanks for this wonderful insight and very real truth. May we all be more charitable with one another.

 

[Makerteacher]

misericordie:

Um, it’s not about enjoyment, Mass is not entertainment, it is the Holy Sacrifice where we go to ADORE Christ, not have a good old time singing kumbayah, or jumping up and down, spinning on the floor while speaking in “tongues” and breakdancing.

Again, Misericordie, I have to say I have never in 17 years in the Catholic Charismatic movement seen even ONE person “spin on the floor” or “breakdance”, not during prayer meetings OR during Masses. The most physical movement I have seen at a prayer meeting was people holding hands and dancing in a circle around the edge the room: remember, this is NOT a Mass. In Mass, the most movement I have seen at a Charismatic service was people raising their hands in praise during a hymn, and the priests doing the same ONLY during the recessional hymn, when Mass has officially ended already.

 

[Makerteacher]

misericordie:

Note, many have the tendency to say “if the pope does it, I could.” Well, the Pope is NOT infallible in ALL, unless he declares something Ex-Cathedra or dogmatic. Also, as much as we all love him, he is not the only pope to ever exist. QUOTE]

Misericordie, no one in this thread has said he’s infallible all the time. Nonetheless, I personally am willing to bet that a man who spends three to five hours a day (for 80+ years) in prayer, and who knows how many thousands of hours saying the Holy Mass and studying the history and theology of this Faith, is a whole lot holier than I am. **Since he has blessed this movement, then I say there has to be something substantive and valuable in it for our Faith. **

No one ever said he’s the only Pope,and I assure he is not the only Pope to support the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, either.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is NOT the entire “pentecostal” movement and is NOT a protestant movement. It’s one lay apostolate, out of many such lay movements, approved by the Vatican. Clearly it’s NOT the lay apostolate for YOU, and that’s OK. You prefer a more traditional worship style, quieter, more solemn. No problem. Just as clearly, it IS the lay apostolate for some of us, and that’s OK too.

 

[loyola_rambler]

misericordie:

Note, many have the tendency to say “if the pope does it, I could.” Well, the Pope is NOT infallible in ALL, unless he declares something Ex-Cathedra or dogmatic. Also, as much as we all love him, he is not the only pope to ever exist. I am sure he was not the one to contract the protestant rock and rollers we hear at the world youth day masses. I am sure the Holy Father follows the dictates of tradition and Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium, where it is stated that the ORGAN, and Gregorian Chant are the main methods of musical worship. Oh, yes, also polyphony.

I think you have a very myopic view of Catholicism and need to find tolerance and kindness in your heart and your words. Your post was way off base and making attributions that you might come to regret when you actually get to know people.

 

[flick427]

I’ve never been to a church where someone can actually play a song on the guitar that doesn’t consist of the same four frets strummed up and down OVER AND OVER…get them thing outta here…it is terrible.

Now, if after (outside of) Mass you find someone who plays Like jeff Beck or Eric Clapton, than have at it, that would be excellent.

I’'ve seen the charasmatic stuff, I am not doubting that Jesus healed people like this, but the music and acting like hippies is pretty revolting.

 

[Makerteacher]

flick427:

I’'ve seen the charasmatic stuff, I am not doubting that Jesus healed people like this, but the music and acting like hippies is pretty revolting.

The charismatics I know are all regular folk who get decent haircuts, wear clean clothes and deodorant, hold down regular jobs, rarely if ever wear tie-dyed clothing, and always put socks on under their dress shoes. Peace man. ~~~ :yup:

Sorry, I couldn’t resist!

Seriously, charismatics cannot be pigeonholed as “hippies”, not should we be called " hysterical breakdancers" or “fish floppers” etc etc. Charismatics are just people who are aware of and alert to the Holy Spirit and His gifts working in their lives for the betterment of the entire Body of Christ. Our worship is exuberant. Our lives are sometimes very radical, in the best sense of that word. Like everyone else, sometimes we have abuses in our movement, but we remain obedient to our local bishops and to the Magisterium of the Church. We are not any one “type” of person.

Charismatics, in short, are people who cut across every spectrum I know of. We’re old and young and middel aged, rich and poor and middle classed, brilliant and simple minded and both well and poorly educated, needy and emotioinally stable, wise and immature, gifted and not so good at stuff, we wear dresses and shorts and suits and native outfits, and we like all sorts of prayers and music and books and places and foods. Some of our Charismatic Masses have guitars and tamborines, and some have gregorian chants and organ music, most have a piano and some great singers, and some have no music at all. We speak Chinese and Swahili and Portugese and English and French…and more. We often go to daily Mass and in addition attend a weekly prayer meeting… or maybe it’s only once a month… or for some it’s every day…it depends. We live all over the world.

It has never been my experience that charismatic Catholics “act like hippies.” That seems to me a pretty unfair generalization of a movement which encompasses 75 million Catholics worldwide.

We’re just people, y’all. Just like you. Please don’t stereotype us like this. We love Jesus, we are passionate about our Faith, we have a special devotion to the Holy Spirit, and we are alive and working in the same Church you go to: the Catholic one.

 

[misericordie]

I think you have a very myopic view of Catholicism and need to find tolerance and kindness in your heart and your words. Your post was way off base and making attributions that you might come to regret when you actually get to know people.

Some here seem to be as over sensitive as the political left. “Freedom seperated from the truth leads to tyranny.”(pope John Paul II, 1993: encyclical: “veritatis Splendor”). With all due respect, truth is always above FEELINGS. God is always above just HUMAN respect. There is such a thing as OBJECTIVE truth, and there seems to be an over relativist view in today’s catholic USA popuation.

 

[Teresita]

Joanna:

The way I understand and use the gift of tongues, is that there is “tongues”, the prayer language, in which we speak to God in the Spirit… I feel like this because sometimes there is so much surprising expression in the prayer, much more emotion in the words I hear myself speaking than I could have found in the English language or even realized was within me.

I was a charismatic evangelical for 28 years before becoming a Catholic. At that point, our parish priest was involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement (although I only discovered that later), and the first ‘mission’ our church had after I’d been received was led by an Irish priest who was very active in that movement. I was thrilled by the Masses where tongues were spoken and prophecies were given. I remember telling one of the ladies I knew in the parish how excited I was that I could be a Catholic and still use tongues, etc.

However, six years later, I’ve found that tongues, to quote St. Paul, have ‘withered away’: that process of detaching oneself from known language in order to praise God or to implore Him to help someone else (the two things most Charismatics use tongues for) has been replaced by other things. For the first, silence in front of the Blessed Sacrament, especially during Exposition: for the second, the Rosary - and indeed, the repeated patter of Hail Marys while the mind meditates and the spirit is raised to God is, IMHO, a better form of tongues than tongues (I tend to pray the Rosary in Latin, which increases that effect).

While it’s absolutely true that praying in tongues can increase emotion, that’s one of the reasons I’ve come to distrust the practice. In itself, that type of emotion is neutral: it can be used to worship God, to bond with a football team or to be carried away at a Nazi rally. It’s the same psychological process, to a large extent. Catholic theology has always maintained a guarded attitude to emotion, neither discouraging nor encouraging it, but judging it by its fruits. St John of the Cross is very unpleasant about those who seek mystical experiences: I’ve seen myself, in the many years that I was part of the Charismatic movement, that people begin to judge not only doctrine but right and wrong according to the way those things conform to their emotions.

My first boyfriend was a fervent and devout charismatic evangelical: we went out for five years, until I was 20. When I tried to end the relationship (I’d just started university), he wrote me long letters explaining all the things that God had been telling him, all of which were directed to the same end: that God had destined me to be his (David’s) wife. The last letter of that sort he sent me declared that, so sure was he of God’s leading, if I still rejected him, he’d stop being a Christian: if he could be so deluded about God’s words to him, he would conclude it was all a hollow sham.

It’s the same tendency I’ve noted in some Catholic Charismatics. One I’ve heard said that if Medjugorje was condemned, she’d leave the Catholic Church. I note it to an extent even in some people on this list: the implication that somehow the Church must be judged by our experience, rather than the other way round. And while our emotions are important (otherwise presumably God wouldn’t have given them to us), we should measure them by the Church, and not vice versa.

Sue

 

[David_E.Mahony]

I suppose, where varied styles of worship, prayer and religious experience are concerned, what matters is the position we take up on the cultural map – how we are constrained to view things, not only our own but another’s as well. Mary Douglas wrote “…as the signals of contempt are meant to be seen and understood, it should not be difficult to pick them up. A good pot owes its value to its incontestable claim to belong to its own class of pot.” ( ‘Thought Styles’ p.63 ).

So varied are the cultural styles, where the claim to be one sort is, within the context of the politics of culture, a disavowal and rejection of others, that it is often perplexing but refreshing to see how a broad church can accommodate such diversity.

Is it solely a matter of taste, value and aesthetic choice? An Indult mass, Novus Ordo, Charismatic styles of worship, different ‘Ethnic’ styles – these are simply cultural conduits through which people choose to worship. Why does it appear to some that they cannot but be exclusive in the way & style they claim for their own worship and so question or reject any other? Why are others more accommodating and inclusive, ready to accept the variety that there is? Pace Douglas I, personally, tend to reflect that those of a rigid and doctrinaire stance are perhaps a little ‘potty’. Perhaps for them ‘Popery’ in Rome has become an unacceptable ‘Pot-pourri’ in Rome. Some argue that the charisma of the emotions can be a giddy thing but that it has to be routinised properly by orthodoxy.

But what is the relationship between ‘truth’ and ritual forms or various cultural styles – to such an extent that those addicted to the purity of one style or tradition are unable to come to terms with any sense of validity in the ritual practices of another? What is needed is a sociological explanation for the synchronic antagonisms which, alas, do seem to exist across these various ‘cultures’ within that very broad church, the Roman Catholic Church.

DEM

 

[luckyirishguy14]

I like the silent masses with little singing… makes the mass go a little faster. However, I wouldn’t mind having a soft-playing guitar group at 9AM mass every now and then. That attracts the little ones and helps them pay attention more. We never clap hands, though; it’s always just softly-played church hymns on the guitar, flute, and keyboard. They don’t go overboard (like Baptist choirs), but it is different.

 

[Mandi]

Mandi:

Like I said if you are misinformed - Let me give you a devotional method of assisting at Mass.

1. Priest goes to the Altar -
   Christ goes to the Garden of Olives
2. Priest begins Mass
   Christ begins to pray
3. Priest says the Confiteor
   Christ prostrates in Agony and sweating blood
4. Priest kisses the Altar
   Christ betrayed by Judas with a Kiss
5. Priest goes to the Epistle side (readings)
   Christ bound and taken to Annas the high priest, is struck and spat upon.

etc. etc. If any would like the rest of this devotion I’d be glad to give it.

Here are some thoughts when attending Mass

1. Go to Mas as if you were going to Calvary and conduct yourself before the altar as before the throne of God, in company with the holy angels who are present at every Mass
2. The Holy Sacrifice is identical with that which was offered on the Cross of Calvary
3. Say an Act of Contrition before Mass and place yourself in the presence of Christ
4. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest thing in the whole world!

You use the word “celebration” like you are attending a birthday party. You speak volumes when you say you are put off by Sacrafice. I am left with the conclusion that you have no idea what you are participating in. Mass is no party

I have just recently received a bad reputation point for this post. The person who gave it to me called me uncharitable.

Since I do not know who is responsible for the comment, I am at a loss as how to respond to the ridiculous.

So could someone please point out to me, where I have been uncharitable. Because it seems to be over my head. I am a Catholic protecting and explaining the “Divine Sacrafice”. And since this is a Catholic forum. I do believe I have that right!

I have to admitt I have been rendered speakless, because the person who gave it to me had enough reputation for their opinion to warrant a red dot. A RED DOT to a devotional method of hearing Mass. Please either straighten me out or help me out, because this is ridiculous.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Mandi,
If I had enough reputation to fix this problem for you I’d give you 20 reputation points! I’ve watched you here on the boards and on different threads, and even gave you a good comment (wanted to give you another once… but it told me to spread it out to more people first LOL). Unfortunately, I’m only a little “guy” and it didn’t count on your reputation.

Would you like to know WHY I felt compelled to give you a “good comment” it was because you are nothing OTHER than charitable. You are extremely reverant of our Lord and you have shown more tolerance and loving towards people than I could ever do (I’m working on it… really)

Don’t worry about these reputation points, I think they’re a bunch of Malarki (sp?) If they were really worth their salt, you wouldn’t see people that have a dozen of so posts with a green square.

Keep doing what your doing. Don’t change a thing!

 

[Makerteacher]

Teresita:

While it’s absolutely true that praying in tongues can increase emotion, that’s one of the reasons I’ve come to distrust the practice. In itself, that type of emotion is neutral: it can be used to worship God, to bond with a football team or to be carried away at a Nazi rally. It’s the same psychological process, to a large extent. Catholic theology has always maintained a guarded attitude to emotion, neither discouraging nor encouraging it, but judging it by its fruits. St John of the Cross is very unpleasant about those who seek mystical experiences: I’ve seen myself, in the many years that I was part of the Charismatic movement, that people begin to judge not only doctrine but right and wrong according to the way those things conform to their emotions.

I have yet to see Charismatics do this, quite honestly. No one that I associate with in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal judges doctrine by anything other than what the Magisterium states. In fact, we are usually the ones who end up defending the Magisterium’s teachings in our parishes and on the streets.
I urge you all who might be reading to be careful to separate “all” charismatics (many of whom are Catholic and many of whom are NOT) and those involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. They are two different groups and many of their attributes are vastly different, while some are the same. The CCR operates in TOTAL obedience to the Holy See.

Teresita:

And while our emotions are important (otherwise presumably God wouldn’t have given them to us), we should measure them by the Church, and not vice versa.

Amen, I agree totally.

 

[Makerteacher]

Mandi:

I have just recently received a bad reputation point for this post. The person who gave it to me called me uncharitable.

Since I do not know who is responsible for the comment, I am at a loss as how to respond to the ridiculous.

So could someone please point out to me, where I have been uncharitable. Because it seems to be over my head. I am a Catholic protecting and explaining the “Divine Sacrafice”. And since this is a Catholic forum. I do believe I have that right!

I have to admitt I have been rendered speakless, because the person who gave it to me had enough reputation for their opinion to warrant a red dot. A RED DOT to a devotional method of hearing Mass. Please either straighten me out or help me out, because this is ridiculous.

Miseriecordie, I did not give you reputation points one way or the other. I think you have strong feelings and express them here, as is your right indeed. Whiel you and I have disagreed on some points, I think we have managed to do so with some grace and restraint, and have also found some common ground.

Since you have asked for (name removed by moderator)ut on why your post might have been seemed offensive to someone out there, I’d like to offer one little thought on this. As a teacher of writing and speech (and history and religion :whacky: ), it might be the use of the word “you” throughout your post. Whether a writer intends it or not, using that particular pronoun makes the reader feel that it is them, personally, who is being spoken to, and it therefore sometimes can come off as aggressive, when the writer NEVER intended for it to be that way. My students must learn to assiduously avoid the use of the “you” word unless they are intending to actually attack a position on an issue.

We know that you love the Mass. I certainly consider you my sibling in the Lord!

 

[misericordie]

Makerteacher:

Miseriecordie, I did not give you reputation points one way or the other. I think you have strong feelings and express them here, as is your right indeed. Whiel you and I have disagreed on some points, I think we have managed to do so with some grace and restraint, and have also found some common ground.

Since you have asked for (name removed by moderator)ut on why your post might have been seemed offensive to someone out there, I’d like to offer one little thought on this. As a teacher of writing and speech (and history and religion :whacky: ), it might be the use of the word “you” throughout your post. Whether a writer intends it or not, using that particular pronoun makes the reader feel that it is them, personally, who is being spoken to, and it therefore sometimes can come off as aggressive, when the writer NEVER intended for it to be that way. My students must learn to assiduously avoid the use of the “you” word unless they are intending to actually attack a position on an issue.

We know that you love the Mass. I certainly consider you my sibling in the Lord!

I am sorry, I think you are talking about the wrong person. It must be another poster??
If it was me, I frankly beleive I am sufficiently well educated in theology and philosophy and in Official Church teaching, as to CARE if someone who does NOT agree with the official teachings of the Church (all I do is repeat what the CHURCH Ofiicially teaches) gives a negative “reputation.” Of course, we ALL here give “reputations” too. I don’t posts threads to wil popularity contests.

 

[misericordie]

Mandi:

I have just recently received a bad reputation point for this post. The person who gave it to me called me uncharitable.

Since I do not know who is responsible for the comment, I am at a loss as how to respond to the ridiculous.

So could someone please point out to me, where I have been uncharitable. Because it seems to be over my head. I am a Catholic protecting and explaining the “Divine Sacrafice”. And since this is a Catholic forum. I do believe I have that right!

I have to admitt I have been rendered speakless, because the person who gave it to me had enough reputation for their opinion to warrant a red dot. A RED DOT to a devotional method of hearing Mass. Please either straighten me out or help me out, because this is ridiculous.

MAKERTEACHER< ARE YOU REFFERING TO THIS PERSON???

 

[mtubbert]

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agname:

I have no problem with guitars being used within Mass. It’s when the Mass becomes “Bibleland” with Jimmy Lee Farnsworth …that’s when I have a problem (ie. the focus off the Mass turns away from the Eucharist…to healing sessions, etc…tongue speaking…celebrants surrounding the altar during the consecration…individuals having to say their confession outloud in front of the congregation, etc.)

For those wondering about “Bibleland” – imdb.com/title/tt0097366/

This past weekend I was privleged to be at Franciscan University for a conference. The mass as always is most jubilent and charismatic with wonderful contemporary music and hand clap and some speaking in tounges. The priciple celebrant was His Eminence Francise Cardinal Arinze the prefect of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the sacraments for the Roman Curia. His comments at the end of mass was to compliment the wonderful music and joyful celebration at that mass. His Homily centered on the mistakes of many celebrants in conducting the Holy Sacrific of the Mass. If this was in any way against church teaching, I have to believe that this awesome man of God would have told the participants of our errors in worship.

 

[JNB]

Franciscan U seems to be held up as an example of how the Charismatic Catholic revivalis vital and faith filled, and attracting more youth, and of course, Franciscan U is all of these things. I have yet to go to mass at Franciscan U, but I have met some Franciscan students, and they are in terms of church teachings orthodox, but again my opinion is that Franciscan U is an exception.

As I have stated on other threads, the Charismatic movment in many dioceses, including my own Columbus, has largely stagnated and is very much an older crowd. More young familes and more young adults are seen at traditional leaning parishes. I stand by what I have also said about the Charismatic movment, it seems in the surface at least ti be based more on feelings rather than solid theological underpinnings, and thats great when things are going ones way, but when they experience the dark night of the soul that many experience, feelings are going to account for very little, what will get one though that is the grace of God and solid intellectual theological underpinnings of ones faith.