Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[George789]

I have to say. I prefer the Byzantine tradition, there is no better instrument made than the human voice!!! The instrument God made for you. The Byzantine Churches that I have been in do not have organs and other instruments are (were)? not allowed.

I still like hearing the “Our Father” sung.

Eventhough I now attend a Roman Catholic Church due to personal reasons (I don’t want to go into detail). I believe if everyone attended a Byzantine mass at least once it may shed light on the Churches earlier roots. I still manage to go one when I can.

 

[John_Of_Cinci]

Many of the post on this thread are originating in the mind.

Way too much analyzing going on - make the journey from the mind to the heart. This is the longest, most dificult, most trying, most edifying journey one has to make. It is called dying to self. Cut the Spirit some slack!

The Gifts of the Spirit are real - - meant for all - - for all times. They do not reside in the head.

 

[Mandi]

John Of Cinci:

Many of the post on this thread are originating in the mind.

Way too much analyzing going on - make the journey from the mind to the heart. This is the longest, most dificult, most trying, most edifying journey one has to make. It is called dying to self. Cut the Spirit some slack!

The Gifts of the Spirit are real - - meant for all - - for all times. They do not reside in the head.

I’m sorry I do not understand what you are trying to say? I humble myself to your explanation

 

[John_Of_Cinci]

What I am trying to say is let the Spirit lead. The Gifts of The Spirit need to be experienced - just as you experience being with Our Lord at communion.

 

[Jeff_B]

The Mass is all music - The Gloria, Gospel Acclamation are two Mass parts that should only be done if sung - yes, you can sing acapella or you can chant but I don’t think I believe that many of the Eastern Churches function without music. I think it is more integral to their worship than to ours. My question was - I believe - are you willing to provide an alternative? Can you actually lead the chant you feel can replace a guitar (or any other instrumentation) at church?

[/indent]
And you are being ridiculous. I have been a Catholic all my life and a Music Minister since the age of 18. Get up and leave the Church because someone like you won’t allow me to play my guitar at Mass? And Rome would never ban the use of guitars - “Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath give praise to the Lord!. Hallelujah!” It is not the instrumentation that has been called into question in the last little while, but the manner in which it is used. Guitar music can be just as reverent as anything else. I just pray to God that if they do make changes to the Liturgy that I know and love, I wouldn’t gripe and grumble about it for the rest of my life.

And no, I am not talking about the leaving the forum because people disagree with me, but because of the narrow-minded, only one way is the right way, kind of nonsense I am hearing on this list and many others I have joined over the years. Yes, debate is good, and we don’t always have to agree about everything. However, my impression has always been, traditional or contemporary, we are all Catholics under the skin. It appears here though, that I am but an inferior Catholic or not a true Catholic because I am not a traditionalist. Get comfortable with that idea? I don’t think so - but thanks for caring about me. But I am comfortable with the notion that some of the churches I attend on my travels have organ music (I have yet to attend one that had no music at all in the last several years, at least on Sunday) and some have piano and some have guitar, although not all appeal to me to the same degree. And I participate as fully as my knowledge of the music will allow.

Amen to that, MJS.

I have been wondering if it were even possible that there
would be some form of Contemporary worship at Catholic Masses,
or at least at some other services. Right now, I currently earn
most of my living as a music director at a non-denominational
church, and my wife is the worship leader.
I agree with some here, and would also add that a lot of what goes
on with contemporary music is a lot of pop-industry palp and pablum. I do agree with some here that these (we would call
them) “praise and worship” services, it is often about receiving
on an emotional level, and not really about reverent worship
to our Lord. But that is not the case in a lot of, and I would
say most, of what is sung in contemporary services that I have
been to, at least. In our services, ALL our songs that we use
focus strictly on reverence and worship and drawing closer
to God. Most “contemporary”, and some traditional, also,
including hymns like Great Is Thy Faithfulness, and How Great
Thou Art. Those songs, by the way, do not date back to the
early church, and at one time were considered traditional,
and I would imagine, at one time were argued about.

I am only at the very beginning of my “Journey Home”, and while
there are many issues I am exploring, I am interested in what
capacity we would, if possible, be able to use, our musical
gifts in serving the church. I do want to add that truth is truth,
and if it were not possible, it wouldn’t prevent conversion,
but as I do make my living from it, it would be somewhat of an
issue with me.

I wonder how to go about finding about parishes that do utilize
a more modern approach, musically in either masses or
other services, or what other venues might be available for
someone like myself.

But stand firm MJS, even elsewhere in the ‘non-Catholic’ world
similar arguments have been made about music, and it’s not
a whit different in this forum.

In Him,

Jeff

 

[jp2fan]

Mandi:

You use the word “celebration” like you are attending a birthday party. You speak volumes when you say you are put off by Sacrafice. I am left with the conclusion that you have no idea what you are participating in. Mass is no party

Did you read a word I said?? here’s a quote from me- “Of course, the Mass is a sacrifice. No denial of that here”. Here’s another- “Of course it is a sacrifice. I said that already”. And you tell me I’m put off by sacrifice?? NOT fair. And I never said Mass was, or should be, a party. Celebration is indeed far different. However, you seem to be completely neglecting the fact that Mass is at the same time a celebration!!! And do NOT tell me that I don’t understand the Mass. I’d give my life for the Mass, and I go most every day. Not that I need to prove myself to you… only the Lord knows where my heart is.

jp2fan

ps is it against the rules to tell someone he has an attitude??

 

[SocaliCatholic]

As a convert, I went through the 2 years of RCIA and became Catholic this Easter Vigil becuase I wanted to align my will Jesus, His Church, and celebrate mass every Sunday will all my fellow believers…however liberal/conservative charismatic/traditional the Church leaders have elected it to be, as long as Church rules are being followed in accordance with the magesterium.

If we can’t do that… with Love for God and then our neighbor, why bother with the claim to be Catholic at all?

 

[beng]

John Of Cinci:

Many of the post on this thread are originating in the mind.

Way too much analyzing going on - make the journey from the mind to the heart. This is the longest, most dificult, most trying, most edifying journey one has to make. It is called dying to self. Cut the Spirit some slack!

The Gifts of the Spirit are real - - meant for all - - for all times. They do not reside in the head.

What is the gift of the spirit?

Do you speak tongue? Are you charismatic?

Prepare to defend your case. I shall questioned you.

 

[misericordie]

:clapping: Dominus Vobiscvm sais it best here. The passions must be subject to the intellect, and certainly any Mass that has electric guitars, drums, liturgical dancers (usually women in their 50’s and 60’s, or non-habit using nuns of the same age)is appealing ONLY to emotionalism, and ONLY FEELINGS.:dancing:

 I do believe too this is the Montanist heresy revisted.  Their are great people in the Charismatic renewal, who are sincerely trying to live good and holy lives, and well some just don't know better (RE: their rock and roll masses) or others just don't want to accept, and if the latter is the case then, well, this is a lack of humility, and demonstrates PRIDE.  I know certain Charismatic groups who have TOTALLY refused to listen or obey their parish pastor when he tries to correct certain liturgical abuses, and they immediately label him as "bad", "mean", "from the devil".   This attitude for sure!  Lets them show their TRUE colors: they want to do THEIR OWN THING!   Lucky we have strong willed pastors who refuse to give in, and are strong willed and NOT intimidated:D .      The carismatic members of one particular parish here, refused to fold, and they labled him "evil"  "bad"  "a liar" (regarding TRUE church teachings on the liturgy(many are ignorant, or uneducated in their faith).  Sorry, this sounds as if NOT from God, but from some OTHER spirit(the same one that makes them spin on the floor, and speak in a tongue no one ever heard before, or which never existed, hence a spirit of confusion).:whacky: 
What is sadder is that when a good faithful priest points out their theological and liturgical errors, they REFUSE to believe him, EVEN WHEN HE SHOWS THEM PROOF FROM THE RUBRICS, OR OTHERWISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Wow:banghead: 
       I ONLY attend Catholic Churches where this montanist movement has NO STRONGHOLD!  Including on the priests there.

 

[Serafin]

beng:

It’s not what you or I like. It’s what God likes.

What makes you the expert on what God likes? Are you privvy to his preferences in a way David was not? There were no organs or pianos in ancient Israel and as far as God’s musical tastes, Have you read the Psalms lately? If what Psalm 150 says about praise is good enough for God it should be good enough for any mass!

Music preference varies by taste and culture… and what may seem solemn and worshipful music to a Westerner may in Africa or Latin America be music for funerals. I happen to like Charismatic masses, with guitars, clapping and speaking in tongues and all as do many Christians including Catholics!

Not everyones idea of worship is to go hear a choir chant old songs in Latin or organ tunes from another century , it maybe mass, but for younger people it is BORING! Will Jesus be there any less if people clap and sing, dance or speak in tongues? Is God an 80 year old Pre-Vatican II type who only likes pipe organs and Gregorian chant? I think not!

Blessings

Serafin

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Not everyones idea of worship is to go hear a choir chant old songs in Latin or organ tunes from another century , it maybe mass, but for younger people it is BORING!

Only an old person would say something so completely stupid and ignorant.

I repeat what I wrote earlier:

Anyone but me notice that at “charismatic” Masses, the vast majority of people there are not young, or even black? Rather, they’re a bunch of old, middle-age white people pretending to be “black”; their children, if they are practicing Catholic, are entering seminaries and religious orders who celebrate liturgies in accordance with the Church’s rubrics and tradition.



[Please note: I do not believe all old people are stupid or ignorant. I simply meant that only an “older” person could be so out of touch with what interests young people liturgically.]

 

[beng]

**

What makes you the expert on what God likes? Are you privvy to his preferences in a way David was not? There were no organs or pianos in ancient Israel and as far as God’s musical tastes, Have you read the Psalms lately? If what Psalm 150 says about praise is good enough for God it should be good enough for any mass!

Music preference varies by taste and culture… and what may seem solemn and worshipful music to a Westerner may in Africa or Latin America be music for funerals. I happen to like Charismatic masses, with guitars, clapping and speaking in tongues and all as do many Christians including Catholics!

Not everyones idea of worship is to go hear a choir chant old songs in Latin or organ tunes from another century , it maybe mass, but for younger people it is BORING! Will Jesus be there any less if people clap and sing, dance or speak in tongues? Is God an 80 year old Pre-Vatican II type who only likes pipe organs and Gregorian chant? I think not!

Blessings

Serafin

Do you want some Michael W.Smith’s song?

 

[SocaliCatholic]

**
Not everyones idea of worship is to go hear a choir chant old songs in Latin or organ tunes from another century , it maybe mass, but for younger people it is BORING!
Serafin

Charismatic worship is BORING!

Some churches ALLOW it only so older people will think they are reaching younger people, when in fact they are short-changing them from authentic worship.

A solemn Mass is a blessing from God!

There are no short cuts: you can’t assume that the music will always convert young people. It might even do a disservice becuase it takes away from the reflective, meditative, or contemplative aspects of the meaning of the words and switches the concentration to the music coming from the instruments.

I went to protestant worship for years and dont miss one bit the same tired, distracting, non-catholic lyrics played with electric guitars and drums ect

At my first communion, every one of my 15 or so potestant or non-christian friends that went (all in their early 20’s) told me that they truly enjoyed the Bi-Lingual THREE HOUR EASTER VIGIL!

_

 

[mjs]

Original Posted by Arrowood:Actually, it’s not in the Catechism, and I wouldn’t expect it to be since the purpose of the Catechism is not to lay out specific norms for liturgical practice. However, it is in the document of the Second Vatican Council, “Sacrosanctum Concilium” in article 120. I quoted the entire article below so you can see the point of this whole debate is actually found in this document:

Actually, believe it or not, Arrowood, I did not expect that it would be found in the Catechism. I was just posing a question based on what someone had said in an earlier post about the Catechism specifically saying every church must have an organ. I have the document “Sacrosanctum Concilium” and every other pre and post-Vatican II document written. While I am aware that the organ is the favoured (not only) instrument, I still see nothing that precludes the use of guitars (or pianos, or flutes, or violins, or drums, or cymbals…). And I don’t see anyone trying to challenge me on what the Church documents say regarding music and Sacred Liturgy - obviously because they can’t. Music is an integral part of worship and I always work within the guidelines the Church has set out for me. In fact, all music, be it for weddings, funerals, school Mases, etc. goes through me, because my priest trusts me to choose music that is both liturgically and theologically correct.

I really don’t think the instrument has anything to do with what makes for good or bad music during Mass. I have heard choirs led by organs and guitars that have done absolutely nothing to enhance my worship experience. And showmanship or entertaining is not exclusive to guitar and all other instrumentation not the organ, as I have sat through Masses where the choir presented the music (accompanied by organ) and the congregation couldn’t join in if they wanted to. Neither is the correct liturgical approach to music.

As someone quoted earlier, I like coffee, you like tea. I happen to like good, solid liturgical music regardless of the instrument that leads it and I leave others to their own preferences. And I rest secure in the knowledge that I am doing good things for God and for his Church here on earth.

mjs

 

[Jeff_B]

I would just also add, especially because the use of
modern music seems to be linked here with forms of
Charismatic worship, that while modern music in worship
evolved along with all this quasi-charismatic revivals in
movements such as the Jesus movement in the 70s, Vineyard/ Torronto revivals, et al, that the two are actually mutually exclusive.
Part of the proof of that is Charismatic worship exists in churches
that do not at all use ‘modern’ worship, although it is rare these
days, and it definitely is more normative than the exception, that
modern music now exists in many churches that do NOT consider
themselves charismatic. Most of them will blend newer songs
with older traditional hymns. What should be important is not
the style, but are the songs theologically correct, and do they
lead the congregation into worship- reverence and drawing closer
to God.
A bigger issue floating around this thread seems to be whether
it is necessary to make the service “relevant” to the newer
generation, or people who are more rooted in the secular world
than they are in the church.
It shouldn’t be an issue for those who are already “there” and
“get it”. They are way past the point of needing milk, and
to them a priest who may walk in with an inflated chewing gum
prop, or some of the other things mentioned, I think in this thread,
or maybe it was another…, would seem foolish, unnecessary,

The purpose of the church is to grow, not form itself into an elite
group that is an island unto itself- the modern day version of
the Pharisees. That became the root of the problem that led
to the reformation. It wasn’t just about the abuse of indulgences.
No one should make an issue about style- unless it
conflicts with the rubrics or the Mass itself.
Music is just a tool, that’s it. God judges us as woshippers
not by our demeanor in Church, but by our demeanor the
rest of the week, and how we carry out everyday life.
It’s been said that if you are not worshipping God during the
week, then you are NOT worshipping Him on Sunday.

Inappropiate and irreverance are one thing. Style is another.
If you don’t like the style of one parish, find another.
The Father, Son and the Holy Sprit do not change.

Respectfully and in His Grip,

Jeff

 

[Mandi]

Well so many interesting things were posted well I was away last night. However I did spend some time looking for information on this. I came across the Motu Proprio of St. Puis X on Sacred Music. For those interested you can find it at

http://www.americancatholicpress.org/articlesMotuProprio.html

Pope Puis X clearly defines “sacred music” Of course this was back in the days when people actually listened to the Pope!!! but contrary to popular belief what has been decreed by one Pope can not be undone by another (This is Catholic Law). I’ll just post a few of the more interesting statements. On what Pope Puis X decreed that GOD LIKED! For myself I’ll choose the Saints side!
3. In the highest degree, these qualities are found in Gregorian Chant. Consequently, this is the song that is proper to the Roman Church, the only song she has inherited from the ancient Fathers, the only song she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical [books], the only song she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, the only song she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and the only song which recent research has so happily restored to its integrity and purity.

On these grounds, Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music. Therefore, it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: In its movement, inspiration, and mood, the more closely a church composition approaches the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes. The more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

1. Because singing should always have top priority, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain it and never oppress it.
2. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church. Only in special cases with the consent of the [bishop of the diocese] will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place. In that case, the composition and accompaniment must be written in a serious and appropriate style; the composition and accompaniment must conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

And much much more!

 

[John_Of_Cinci]

beng:

What is the gift of the spirit?

Do you speak tongue? Are you charismatic?

Prepare to defend your case. I shall questioned you.

Yes! I am charismatic! I do not speak tongue - I pray in tougue.
I am thinking that Wisdon, Knowledge and Understanding would be some of the gifts the Holy Spirit would shower on a soul that praises God with music and joyful worship.

 

[Jeff_B]

And much much more!

You’re right Mandi, there is much much more.
I have no disagreement with any of the points made in the
Motu Propio.

“Therefore, says Pius X, nothing should take place that would disturb or diminish the prayer and piety of the faithful. There should never be reasonable cause for disgust or scandal. Above all, he says, there should be nothing which directly offends the decorum and holiness of the liturgy. That would be unworthy of the house of prayer, of the majesty of God.”]

Part of my point is that not all modern music introduced into
the church does that. It is more pop-defined and sometimes
has nothing to do with real worship. But just because music is
done modern, or contemporary, in of itself does not fall
into this charicterization.

“Pius X says he really wants the “true Christian spirit” to flourish in every way, to be fostered by all the faithful. Before anything else, he considers it necessary to provide for the holiness and dignity of the house of prayer. This is the place where the faithful assemble to acquire this spirit from its source, its first and necessary source: active participation in the holy mysteries, in the solemn and public prayer of the Church. It is foolish, he says, to hope that heaven’s blessing will descend abundantly upon us, when our homage to the Most High does not ascend with the “odor of sweetness,” when instead it puts into the hand of the Lord the whips with which Jesus Christ drove the unworthy from the Temple, those people who profaned it”

Amen to that-- and as long as whatever the style of the music
holds to this, there is no argument to be made against it.

In the rules, all this is certainly charicterized and defined,
but even then, back in 1903 when this was written,
there were boundaries, but not limitations, such as:

“On the one hand, every country can admit its own native music forms into its compositions for church. On the other hand, these kinds of music must be subordinate to the general character of sacred music. This must be done in such a way that, on hearing the music, nobody of any other country would receive a negative impression”

in # 3 While he used the Gregorian chant as a model and ideal,
the Pope in no way limited the style to that, in fact he spoke
of
" qualities [which] are also possessed in an excellent degree by classic polyphony, especially of the Roman School, which reached its greatest perfection in the fifteenth century, owing to the works of Pierluigi da Palestrina. After his time, polyphony continued to contribute compositions of excellent quality, from a liturgical and musical standpoint. Classic polyphony is an admirable match for Gregorian Chant, the supreme model of all sacred music."

You forgot to include :

1. The Church has consistently favored the progress of the fine arts, admitting to the service of religion everything good and beautiful that human talent has produced, down through the ages. This has always been done, however, with due regard to the liturgical laws. Consequently, modern music is also allowed to enter the church. Contemporary music furnishes compositions of such excellence, sobriety, and competence, that they are in no way unworthy of the liturgy.

Still, since modern music has come into being mainly to serve secular purposes, greater care must be taken with regard to it. This must be done so that contemporary musical compositions, allowed in church, will contain nothing profane, will be free from associations with melodies used in theaters, and will be not written in the style of secular pieces, even in their outward forms.

These have been my main points-- there ARE guidelines to
follow, and as long as that is so, there is nothing wrong with
modern music in the liturgy.
It clearly is not banned.

One of the (many)first things I’m learning from my Catholic brethren and
learning to overcome some of my barriers in understanding the
practices of the faith is to distinguish which is dogma, and which
is a discipline.

The real point is, you can’t condemn style, but you should discern
what is behind the approach, and draw the lines from there.

God Bless You!

Jeff

 

[Jeff_B]

Sorry for using “cyan” as the color, I had no idea it would come
out so vague and harsh!

Jeff

 

[Mandi]

jp2fan:

Did you read a word I said?? here’s a quote from me- “Of course, the Mass is a sacrifice. No denial of that here”. Here’s another- “Of course it is a sacrifice. I said that already”. And you tell me I’m put off by sacrifice?? NOT fair. And I never said Mass was, or should be, a party. Celebration is indeed far different. However, you seem to be completely neglecting the fact that Mass is at the same time a celebration!!! And do NOT tell me that I don’t understand the Mass. I’d give my life for the Mass, and I go most every day. Not that I need to prove myself to you… only the Lord knows where my heart is.

jp2fan

ps is it against the rules to tell someone he has an attitude??

Sorry to misinterpet you, but you clearly said you were put off by talk of sacrifice, (you convienently left out that quote in the above.) And since that is EXACTLY what the Mass is, well what can I say…

“To Celebrate Holy Mass”

Definition of the word “celebrate” as it pertains to The Holy Mass

To perform publicly and in due for (any religious ceremony); to hold (a church council); to soleminize 1564. Also absol. (with the Eucharist as implied obj.) 1534. Also transf. 2. To observe with solemn rites; to honour with ceremonies, festivities etc. 1500. To make publicly known, proclaim 1597.

If this is what you mean by “Celebrate” then you are absolutely correct and you have my most humble apology.

Blessed is the one who is able to assist at Holy Mass daily!