Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[MIDGIE]

James_2:24:

Yes I think there is a problem with this and yes I think Christ would see a problem with it.

If the Church wasn’t fulfilling the Great Commission the Lord commanded them to by feeding His sheep, then maybe He would have a problem with the way they were doing it. Where did the Lord tell His Church exactly how He expects His sheep to be fed? Did He not leave that up to the Church “how” to fulfill the commission He gave to them?

The Jews already had the worship service down pat, but that was not the Great Commission Jesus gave to His Church …was it?

Why do you think the Church gave so much attention to the Scriptures at VII?

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. "

Jesus came to save us, not condemn us. It was God Himself Who chose the foolishness of preaching to save us who would believe what we heard. Faith comes by hearing…the Word of God!

You’re not saying the Word of God shouldn’t be preached in the Church or that it should be separated from the Mass, are you? Do you really think Jesus would be pleased if we wouldn’t allow the lost into the Mass to hear the Word of God preached…which is the Way God chose to save them?

God bless you

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

What was the Great Commission Christ gave to His Church? What did He ask Peter 3 times and what was His reply to Peter?

Did Christ said to do whatever the sheep want? That would be a false gospel that should be anathemized (Gal 1:8-9)

It is the Church’s responsibilty to reach the lost and feed them. The lost are those young teens showing up at teen Masses with Black Sabbath t-shirts and short skirts.

Yeah, welcome.

If your clothes are tighter so there’s not much left to the imagination that would be just peachy.

We are warned in the Scriptures: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

Yeah, we shouldn’t judge Arius, Nestorius, Luther etc

How do you expect to reach those teens if they are not brought into the Church where they will hear the “Good News” of Jesus Christ proclaimed to them from the Scriptures?

If the church is no differnt then their environment (by allowing them to do to the church whatever they please) then why would they bother to go to the Church?

There are tons of teenager looking for reverent. After finding out how not much difference the church is, what do you know, THEY LEFT!

It is the Word of God which is powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword that will reach into those teens’ hearts and change them, but they have got to be in the Church…just as they are…in order to hear the Word of God proclaimed to them.

Yeah, since the word of God is so sharp we could make a Saint out of Christina Aquilera. Don’t bother telling her that her pants are too low. Maybe the lower the better.

If people truly cared about the souls of teens, then they wouldn’t be complaining about the means used to reach them.

Sure sure

Low cut jeans should be a standard uniform

Usher’s song can be played (no clapping tho, we don’t wanna be irreeverent)

Elimi-date should be a mean to generate needed fund for Church shelters

It’s important to reach them right where they are at before there’s any hope of them growing in the faith.

That would mean we go to their environment and state of mind. explaining it how it is wrong and introduce them the beauty of reverent Mass.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is much more loving and forgiving to us sinners than I see some here being.

Did Christ tell Mary Magdalene, “Oh, nevermind you know. Prostitution is just one of those necessary eocnomical and sociological consequence.”

Stop judging how the Church implements whatever means is necessary to bring the lost into her fold to teach them God’s Way for their lives.

Which church? Yours? With Usher and elimi-date for charity?

If music will bring them into the Church, then what is the problem using the music that attracts them?

Duh. Read my posts

Is it not better to use the music of their culture to reach them then to see them spend an eternity in hell?

Those who abuse the Mass will spend time in Hell with the one he/she brought to desecrate the Mass.

Do you REALLY think the Lord would have a problem with this???

Yes

If so, then you do not know the “Love” of Christ in your own lives.

You’re not even loving Christ sacrifice enough to curtail abuses. Name me one saint who wasn’t reverent and party like an animal.

 

[James_2_24]

MIDGIE:

If the Church wasn’t fulfilling the Great Commission the Lord commanded them to by feeding His sheep, then maybe He would have a problem with the way they were doing it. Where did the Lord tell His Church exactly how He expects His sheep to be fed? Did He not leave that up to the Church “how” to fulfill the commission He gave to them?

Read Church history and tradition. Study the tradition of the mass back into history. We are not talking sola scriptura here so of course the rubrics of the liturgy are not going to be recorded directly from the Lord in scripture… but you can find them. This is why we rely on more than just scripture…

MIDGIE:

The Jews already had the worship service down pat, but that was not the Great Commission Jesus gave to His Church …was it?

Seems like there is a misunderstanding of the history of liturgy here and its significance.

I live in a small town right now so I don’t have access to the Eastern Divine Liturgy… I can’t wait (one more year) until I move to a bigger city… I have just about made up my mind to leave the Roman Rite and go Eastern. The liturgy seems lost… I am tired of this nonsense.

MIDGIE:

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. "

Jesus came to save us, not condemn us. It was God Himself Who chose the foolishness of preaching to save us who would believe what we heard. Faith comes by hearing…the Word of God!

I certainly don’t know what you are getting at here. I never said Jesus came to condemn us… I said nothing about preaching or about faith coming from hearing the word of God. I am talking about the prayer of the Church – the Mass. About reverence, tradition, etc… Who said anything about taking the Word of God out of the mass?

midgie:

You’re not saying the Word of God shouldn’t be preached in the Church or that it should be separated from the Mass, are you? Do you really think Jesus would be pleased if we wouldn’t allow the lost into the Mass to hear the Word of God preached…which is the Way God chose to save them?

Again… I have no idea how it logically follows that tradition, meaning, reverence, and the historical significance of the mass has anyting to do with NOT reaching the lost. Of course the word of God should always be preached in mass… where did I say it shouldnt?? I never said that once. We should always bring those lost home BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MASS. The mass is primarily worship for the believer and not a evangelistic tool.

We evangelize the lost and teach them and bring them home. It is when they are converted, that we show them how to worship and what worship is. The mass is NOT primarily a evangelistic tool. It is worship of God for the one who believes. That is why RCIA and other formation/outreach courses are made in parishes in order to reach the lost… Then when they are converted we can then say, “Welcome home…” and they receive communion and participate in the mass.

Part of evangelism should be a teaching of the understanding of the mass. Not the other way around – in which we say: “Hey What do you like? Dancing and Rock music? That will be your form of worship. Welcome home, have fun! For all the new teen converts… the 5 o’clock mass will be liturgical dancing and rock music” So we end up gutting the mass of meaning and reverence just because we want to get them in. Its not about just getting them in the Church but teaching them true forms of worship and respect in the Lord’s presence. What is the use of bringing them to Catholicism and teaching them the faith if we bastardize their form of worship? It’s not about numbers… The true Church can be a remnant on earth… with correct worship and teaching.

The mass is worship. In my own conversion to Catholicism… I did not see the mass until I was fully converted in mind. And I would have never expected them to cater it to me or others like me who were inquiring. For months I struggled with another Catholic over the doctrines of Catholicism. One by one I accepted them. When I was ready… I was asked, “Are you ready to see what mass is like?” It is then I went…

It wasn’t made to be a plaything where one says… “All you who like rock music… come to mass on tuesday…”

God Bless you too.

 

[MIDGIE]

OK, James, let me put it to you this way. Have you ever been to a children’s Mass? Does the music they sing meet your standard of what “sacred music” ought to be? Do you think the simple praises they sing to God offends God in any way because it doesn’t meet some criteria of “sacred music?” Teens are children, too. In the same way little children sing their praise to God in a way they can relate to and understand, so don’t teens. I would imagine that’s why they call it a “Teen” Mass, as a Mass for children is called a “Children’s” Mass. When we mature, we outgrow childish things and would probably be more comfortable praising God at an adult Mass The Body of Christ is ONE, but there are many members in that Body…and all are at different levels and understanding of their faith. The Church reaches out to little children in a way they can understand, so what is wrong with the Church reaching out to teens in a way that they can understand too?

I don’t know about you, but I personally would prefer to see our teens at Mass singing praise to God in a way they can relate to and understand then to not see them at Mass at all. At least at Mass their faith will grow through hearing the Word of God and through the Grace of the Sacraments…which are absolutely necessary for one to mature in their faith. Let’s face it, Mary Magdalene didn’t right herself with the Lord before being accepted by Him. She followed the crowd to hear His Word which probably made her have a contrite and humble heart, but it was JESUS Alone Who set her free and perfected her praise of Him. I say let the teens alone and let Jesus do His Work in their lives through them hearing His Word and the Grace of the Sacraments at Mass. He Alone will perfect their praise and worship of Him…through His LOVE for them.

I just don’t see what is so wrong with having Charismatic Masses for the Charismatics; children’s Masses for the children; and teen Masses for the teens? The Mass is still the Mass no matter what music is being sung, so long as it is being sung to God and is devout and respectful. What a diverse group of people we are within Christ’s Body. If you’re happy attending a certain, Mass, then attend. You shouldn’t be condeming other Masses, though, just because the music doesn’t meet some critieria you think it should. If Teen Masses are reaching the teens and their praising God through their music, then Praise God for it!

I think what God sees first and foremost is the intention of our hearts when we’re at Mass. I don’t think He has a problem with cymbals and stringed instruments unless He’s changed since the O.T. I personally do not like the sound of electric guitars and used to tell my daughters when they were teens to shut that “noise” off. They’d say, “Wait a minute, Mom, just listen to the lyrics.” Once I would hear how meaninful the lyrics were, my attitude would change toward the song. I think it’s important to listen to the lyrics the teens are singing at Mass instead of jumping the gun and condemning the music based only on the instruments being played… which ARE the instruments of their culture they express themselves through.

God could be just as pleased with the lyrics that may be flowing from their hearts as I’m sure we can agree that He is with the simple lyrics that little children sing to Him. What may sound crass to you could actually be beautiful music to God if it is flowing from their hearts.

God bless you

 

[JJ_B]

I think it is important to note one overlooked point about the teen mass. After the service has ended, the teens go to “Life Night” which is like Sunday school I guess. I went to many a Life Night, and though some times I did feel patronized and talked down to, I always came away with the feeling that the church is trying REALLY HARD to reach out to the youth. However, I never felt that the integrity and respect for the Mass was hindered in any way.

My favorite part of the Teen Mass is during and just after communion. It takes a while to get everyone through the line because there are typically 3 or 4 hundred people there, but once this huge mass (pun intended) of people finally settle into their seats you really feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. The musician play soft music in the background and I found that this really helps me focus in prayer. I have trouble keeping my mind on track when it is dead silent sometimes, but when I hear the soft words of “I will choose Christ, I will choose love, I choose to serve” being sung, then I immediately re-focus one why I am kneeling in prayer. It’s not over the top, it’s not showy, and it’s not distracting. Then of course, after many people dry their eyes because the Holy Spirt touched them yet again, we get up and sing and dance in Jubilation of our risen Lord.

 

[JJ_B]

tcasey,

And thank you too for the reply.

“Scripturally based” means simply that the words are from scripture or from close adaptations of scripture.

That’s what I assumed but I didn’t want to put words in your mouth. I’ve recently moved to Northern California (that’s why I refer to St. Tim’s as “my church”…someday I will get back home ) and currently attend a more traditional church or maybe I should say more Orthodox. Any way, the point is, we sing out of a hymnal instead of a song sheet as we do at St. Tim’s. Now, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that not every song in that hymnal would fit into our definition of “Scripturally Based”. I would say that every one of them reflects scripture though. Meaning that even though a song may not be a musically composed version of a passage, the song relates to a passage or story in one form or another. Maybe in a less generic way than most contemporary Christian music though. Now, I haven’t gone through the entire hymnal so there may be some exceptions, but I think my theory is fairly accurate. The point is, the songs are meant to glorify God whether it is a Biblical verse set to music, or a generic "I will Choose Christ (by Tom Booth…gotta give him credit because he is a pretty amazing musician). The hymnal is an accepted staple of the Catholic church and the songs have all been given the stamp of approval from the Church. But I really don’t think that every one of those songs would fit our/my definition of “Scripturally Based”. Of course, you might omit those songs when you prepare for a service so my point may not hold water.

That’s another point; we have a number of very gifted composers at St. Tim’s. One (Tom Booth) was nominated (and I think won) a Dove award and others have composed an entire musical. Many of them have CD’s that sell out at our church and around the valley (of course they are not in it for the money though). It would be a shame not to utilize their talents for praising God. That’s what it is all about. Raising your voice to a song you can actually sing/understand, and praising God. It’s a relief from the sometimes-mundane melodies from the Catholic hymnal.

Peace, JJ

 

[James_2_24]

Midgie:

At this point, I think it would be best if we agree to disagree. I think we are just going around in circles and making this thread extra long.

Thanks for all your responses… But I think we are attempting to make the same points to each other over and over again.

I will however still be here if there is something you want me to respond too… :yup:

Good talking to you. God Bless You…

 

[beng]

MIDGIE:

OK, James, let me put it to you this way. Have you ever been to a children’s Mass? Does the music they sing meet your standard of what “sacred music” ought to be?

There’s a rubric for Children Mass.

There was never a rubric for Life Teen Mass or any other clapping maving hand etc.

Do you think the simple praises they sing to God offends God in any way because it doesn’t meet some criteria of “sacred music?”

Micahel W. Smith’s song? Yes.

Teens are children, too.

Then why the differnt style?

In the same way little children sing their praise to God in a way they can relate to and understand, so don’t teens.

Do you think teens are too stupid to understand sacred music and reverent Mass with no hands clapping?

I would imagine that’s why they call it a “Teen” Mass, as a Mass for children is called a “Children’s” Mass.

There has never been a rubric for Teen Mass.

When we mature, we outgrow childish things and would probably be more comfortable praising God at an adult Mass The Body of Christ is ONE, but there are many members in that Body…and all are at different levels and understanding of their faith. The Church reaches out to little children in a way they can understand, so what is wrong with the Church reaching out to teens in a way that they can understand too?

Reaching how? By dumbing down the music? Michael W. Smith?

I don’t know about you, but I personally would prefer to see our teens at Mass singing praise to God in a way they can relate to and understand then to not see them at Mass at all.

There are plenty of sacred music that just as lovely to the teens.

If other reverent teen (whcih I’ve seen many) can enjoy them, then there’s something wrong with those who can’t enjoy it and demand Michael W. Smith’s songs.

At least at Mass their faith will grow through hearing the Word of God and through the Grace of the Sacraments…which are absolutely necessary for one to mature in their faith.

Then respect all of those by being reverent and not being a pentacostal.

Let’s face it, Mary Magdalene didn’t right herself with the Lord before being accepted by Him. She followed the crowd to hear His Word which probably made her have a contrite and humble heart, but it was JESUS Alone Who set her free and perfected her praise of Him.

Did you read the Bible?

We don’t know whether Mary Magadelene was folowing Christ’s followers before Christ saved her. And when Jesus set her free, do you think it’s OK for her to wear all those parfume, fancy clothes and jewelry?

What did Christ said to the rich young man? Give up your belonging and follow me. Christ is radical. If you wanna follow Him one must deny oneself.

I have left so many things that I usually enjoy since I understand more about Christ. And so does many people.

I say let the teens alone and let Jesus do His Work in their lives through them hearing His Word and the Grace of the Sacraments at Mass.

That will only hurt other people and other teens who want reverent Mass.

He Alone will perfect their praise and worship of Him…through His LOVE for them.

This sounds very Protestant.

How come Christ perfected their praise when they (the teens) are abusing the praise with approval by “some” members of the Church?

cont

 

[beng]

I just don’t see what is so wrong with having Charismatic Masses for the Charismatics; children’s Masses for the children; and teen Masses for the teens?

No such thing in the GIRM (except Children Mass)

The Mass is still the Mass no matter what music is being sung, so long as it is being sung to God and is devout and respectful.

Yeah, since the Mass is still the Mass, let’s just all sing Hero by Mariah Carey. The music is nice and there’s nothing wrong with the words, it can be use in Mass… NOT.

What a diverse group of people we are within Christ’s Body. If you’re happy attending a certain, Mass, then attend.

So people who wanna abuse Mass should have a seperate but valid “abuse Mass”?

You shouldn’t be condeming other Masses, though, just because the music doesn’t meet some critieria you think it should.

There’s no rubric for Life Teen Mass or Charismatic Mass. You are making your own Mass. And last I check only a very few people can do that.

If Teen Masses are reaching the teens and their praising God through their music, then Praise God for it!

This attitude of, “If it’s about Christ, then I guess its fine” is a destructive Protestant attitude.

I think what God sees first and foremost is the intention of our hearts when we’re at Mass.

Then form the heart according to the sacred Mass.

I don’t think He has a problem with cymbals and stringed instruments unless He’s changed since the O.T.

One need to have permission from Bishop to use other instrument beside organ. But now, it seems Guitar is OK too without permission. If you wanna use other instrument, get a permission and don’t decide for yourselves. That’s the root for disobedience.

I personally do not like the sound of electric guitars and used to tell my daughters when they were teens to shut that “noise” off. They’d say, “Wait a minute, Mom, just listen to the lyrics.” Once I would hear how meaninful the lyrics were, my attitude would change toward the song. I think it’s important to listen to the lyrics the teens are singing at Mass instead of jumping the gun and condemning the music based only on the instruments being played… which ARE the instruments of their culture they express themselves through.

Yes. Instrument AND lyrics are important.

For lyric, there’s actually a seperate comitte who has not done their job

God could be just as pleased with the lyrics that may be flowing from their hearts as I’m sure we can agree that He is with the simple lyrics that little children sing to Him. What may sound crass to you could actually be beautiful music to God if it is flowing from their hearts.

God bless you

A 50% effort to praise God and being irreverant won’t be pleasing at all.

 

[Mandi]

James_2:24:

The leaders are first and foremost servants of God. The Church is not a democracy. WE the laity do not have and should not have control of the form of worship. That is the job of the magisterium in its service to the true God. They lay down the rubrics.

Wheww!!! for a moment there I thought I had left the Catholic Church and mistakenly got into some evangalical forum. Thank you.

 

[Mandi]

The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, didicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar.

“Eternal Father, I unite myself with the intentions and affections of our Lady of Sorrows on Calvary, and I offer Thee the Sacrifice which Thy beloved son Jesus made of Himself on the Cross and which He now renews on this holy altar”

I would hardly think if I had been present at the Crucifixion. I would be strumming guiters, clapping hands and singing hallalueh praise the Lord. After reading these posts I have come to the conclusion that most do not know what Holy Mass is! Maybe a trip to see “The Passion of The Christ” would be in order, because that is what Holy Mass is. and if you don’t think so then you are either misinformed or in the wrong church. And although I am not oppossed to guiter music, I would not put it at the Crucifixion of My Lord.

 

[James_2_24]

Mandi:

James_2:24:

Wheww!!! for a moment there I thought I had left the Catholic Church and mistakenly got into some evangalical forum. Thank you.

Thanks Mandi… Yes it seems that many people have lost touch with the historical meaning, tradition, and the reverence in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Your post is a breath of fresh air. :angel1:

God Bless you

 

[jp2fan]

All this talk about the crucifixion, Calvary, etc is a little bti offputting to me. Of course, the Mass is a sacrifice. No denial of that here. But at the same time, it is a CELEBRATION! You cannot focus on one without the other.

Is it against the rules to tell someone he has an attitude?

jp2fan

 

[buffalo]

Music at Mass should not be entertainment for the congregation, rather an offering. The posture of musicians facing the people invite the congregation to view this as entertainment. Maybe that’s why the older churches had the organ and choir in the loft behind the congregation. There may be much accumulated “wisdom” there. The priest and others have become like toastmasters trying to make Mass entertaining thereby losing reverence.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

All this talk about the crucifixion, Calvary, etc is a little bti offputting to me.

Modernism in a nutshell, folks!



The fruits of LifeTeen and the Charismatic renewal . . .

 

[James_2_24]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Modernism in a nutshell, folks!



The fruits of LifeTeen and the Charismatic renewal . . .

I second that… :ehh:

 

[tcaseyrochester]

JJ B:

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that not every song in that hymnal would fit into our definition of “Scripturally Based”. I would say that every one of them reflects scripture though.

Exactly!

 

[jp2fan]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Modernism in a nutshell, folks!



The fruits of LifeTeen and the Charismatic renewal . . .

First of all, I am in no way a part of the Charismatic renewal, and I don’t even like Life Teen.

Secondly, I am honestly as orthodox as they come, theologically. I want nothing to do with modernism.

Thirdly, you seem to be ignoring the rest of what I said. Of course it is a sacrifice. I said that already. But at the same time, it is a celebration!!! Ok? Christ doesn’t die again at every Mass. We “proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.” This is different than Christ dying on the cross in front of us every day. And it IS also a celebration. You can’t deny the fact. We can’t wrap our puny little fallen brains around the fact that it is both, but that doesn’t change its objective truth. You cannot think of the resurrection without thinking of the crucifixion, and you can’t htink of the crucifixion without thinking of the resurrection. They go together. That is why it is a sacrifice and a celebration at the same time.

jp2fan

ps IS it against the rules to tell someone he has an attitude??

 

[Gregor]

DigitalDeacon:

Mark 6:8 He instructed them to take nothing for the journey but a walking stick–no food, no sack, no money in their belts. They were, however, to wear sandals but not a second tunic. He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave from there.

Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them."

Good Bye!

Are you comparing yourself to the Twelve being sent on mission by Christ? Remember: It’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop at the end.

 

[soldonsacramnts]

IF anyone saith that Michael W. Smith’s musics or ANY Christian Pop musics should be allowed to be played in a Mass LET HIM BE ANATHEMA

Who died and left you Pope?
I do like mike but not in the mass. But lest try and pray for those who are not where we are and restore each other to truth. Anathama is a bit over the top. Lets stick to engaging debate