Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

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Dominvs -
The way teens dress is very
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important! Modesty is a virtue, and inentional immodesty is a sin. How is any teenage boy with blood flowing through his veins supposed to remain chaste if the girls in his church are all dressed like skanky whores? C’mon! I agree and so does my priest. However, the point you are overlooking is the affect of turning a teen away from the church based on appearance. How is the “skanky whore” suppose to know any better when the church she attends kicks her out on the street? How is she supposed to change her ways and become the modest person we all want when nobody will show her the way? Besides, it is both my humble opinion and that of a few scholars that Jesus’ most beloved disciple was a “skanky whore”. Do not forget that He reached out to those we turn away. It is by Him that we have the ability to change. That change can not take place though if the poorly dressed teens are not allowed to meet Him.

Make no mistake; my priest does not simply turn a blind eye to these kids though. He will be the first to talk to the poorly dressed kid and ask them to dress more respectably. But as I said before, it is better to have that teen in church than not.

And About Music from you -
Remember, its not just the words to rock-n-roll that make it bad music, its the actual music itself, which by its nature isn’t so much beautiful as it is immediately self-gratifying.
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Give me a break.
In fact, Plato thought musical education to be at the foundation of the teaching of virtue! One who cannot differentiate between good and bad music will not be able to differentiate between moral good and evil!
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Rock-n-Roll, heavy metal, rap, etc. are not evil in and of themselves, but they’re definitely an inferior form of music (as they are less structured and put less emphasis on the human voice; they require less intellectual ability to appreciate them and are catered for those who want immediate, and only immediate gratification). And the Church’s tradition has always discerned that they are not appropriate for Holy Mass.
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Elvis Presley was a greater musician that the three tenors combined. John Lennon’s lyrics were somewhere between amazing and genius. Jimmy Hendrix could manipulate a guitar better than any opera singer can manipulate his/her voice. For you to strait out say that these are inferior forms of music and take less intellectual ability is hogwash. Note that I commented on your statement and not you personally. And I don’t mean to be offensive. So I apologize ahead of time if you found my words offensive.

DV,
This is something you either see or you don’t. Either you see that Palestrina’s Sicut Cervus
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surpasses Our God Is an Awesome God in beauty, or you don’t. And either you see that Elvis Presley was a musical genius or you hide behind fancy Latin songs. I was in choir for 6 years. I had the privilege to perform at Carnegie Hall and both the Kennedy and Lincoln Centers. I have sung in at least 6 different languages and performed 3 versions of the Ave Maria. What does that mean? I’m tired of that stuff. I’ve been there and done that and have the tee-shirt. True, I’d rather go to an Andre Bocelli concert than some Christian band, but that’s because Bocelli is a pro. Most churches don’t have that caliber of singer to lead their congregation in song. When I hear a church (or even the musicians for that matter) sing in Latin it turns my skin because (as any other choral singers will agree) I was grilled in the proper pronunciation of words like, *Excelsis or Kyrie, *andtought to hate bad pronounciation. Most other people have not had that training. So when I hear a church butcher an Ave Maria it really just annoys me and then I can’t enjoy the mass. I can thank my rabid choir teachers for that.

I don’t think I’m better than anybody else. It’s just my preference to stick to music that people can actually sing and enjoy singing.

P.S. I did not mean to be disrespectful to any music ministers in here. You all work very hard and sing much better than I. I’m past my tenor prime and have long sense forgotten the joy of choral singing.
 
I am definitely not Charistmatic. I have been to retreats where they have taken over, and changed what the retreat what intended for. These Charistmatics have also tried to make me feel like my faith is less than theirs, because I don’t believe in the hand waving, and talking in tongues (not the way they have explained it to me). However, although not a real dynamic singer, God has gifted me with a voice to sing his praise. I have done this in many ways. I have been in a full fledged choir, I have sung accapella, and I have sung with guitars. I have enjoyed all forms and all can be done in a reverent fashion for Mass. It is leaders that take upon themselve to incorporate their own intentions, that I find alarming. The Youth Masses being one of them. Yes the youth need to find God on their level, just not at the expense of the Mass. They also need to learn about our Sacred Traditions, and Mass is a good place. I have 4 teenagers, and know that many are also looking for the stability of tradition, and someone telling them that certain things are WRONG. My preference to music is the chant or accapella, but when done right I can enjoy other forms.
 
O
ne last note DV (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that)
I’m nineteen years old; I promise you, that the vast majority of teens going to a “LifeTeen” or other crazy Mass are only doing so because it gives them a temporary thrill, and/or to please their Catholic parents.
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Hi, I’m 24. I went through Life Teen and basically felt the way you did. But you know what? I wouldn’t be the Catholic I am today without it. I am flawed and miss church more than I should, but I wouldn’t go or care at all if it wasn’t for that crazy mass that St. Tims started. I did go to please my parents but not for the temporary thrill. The only thrill I got was from the pretty girls that the Catholic Church is famous for (that was a compliment to all the ladies in the audience :)). Now that I’m past the Life Teen era, I do enjoy that service now and then, but I also find great joy in the old-world style mass. For me, as it was for many teens, Life Teen was a growing experience. Not meant to patronize us for our lack of intelligence as teenager, but instead meant to be a vessel for outreach. It’s not for everybody and that’s just fine. Nobody blames you for not liking it.

Peace, JJ
 
beng said:
IF anyone saith that Michael W. Smith’s musics or ANY Christian Pop musics should be allowed to be played in a Mass LET HIM BE ANATHEMA
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I disagree! I think your wrong! 😦

Let’s hear it for Michael W. Smith! Yeah!

The Grim Reaper
 
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beng:
Stats?

Change to thatb of Protestant’s

We love the Africans. They have great faith there.

Throw away any Protestant flavor.

We might need Trent II to anathemized any Protestant tace

First of all, do you think that ALL black Catholics are those pentacostal Charismatic types?

UNLIKELY!!!

Because of our shortage of priest there are quite African priests here. And you know what, it seems that they are ORTHODOX and NOT the charismatic/pentacostal type.

During the Divine Mercy Mass at EWTN there’s one black priest WHO BOW DURING THE {b]Who were born of the Virgin Mary and became Man
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part of Credo. HE WAS THE ONLY CELEBRANT TO DO SO!!!

In Tridentine Mass, everyone kneel during that (“et incarnatus est…”). In the current misselete we’re suppose to bow and genuflect during solemnity. But did anyone do it? NOOOOOO!!

That priest is one reverent priest, and so does other African priest (maybe African born priest are more reverent than African American priest cough +Gregory cough)
Beng,
I think you need to take a course in English. Maybe we can get you a spell checker!😃
 
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WhiteDove:
The thing that I question about tongues is that most people are babbling and no one understands. I thought that tongues in the Bible was people actually speaking in the languages of various Jews from different lands, who spoke various tongues, which were actually real languages.

I went to a charismatic Protestant church once, and people were merely all individually uttering sounds in a totally disoraganised fashion. No one was interperting. I won’t deny that they had a religious fervor, but I do doubt the validity of ‘speaking in tongues’.
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WhiteDove:
The thing that I question about tongues is that most people are babbling and no one understands. I thought that tongues in the Bible was people actually speaking in the languages of various Jews from different lands, who spoke various tongues, which were actually real languages.

I went to a charismatic Protestant church once, and people were merely all individually uttering sounds in a totally disoraganised fashion. No one was interperting. I won’t deny that they had a religious fervor, but I do doubt the validity of ‘speaking in tongues’.
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The way I understand and use the gift of tongues, is that there is “tongues”, the prayer language, in which we speak to God in the Spirit. It benefits me because the Holy Spirit is making intercession for me in a deep hidden manner. I don’t need to understand. God hears, knows and responds. It is nonconceptual prayer. Think of contemplation that needs no words or understanding. This kind of prayer bypasses the understanding to pour out our hearts to God, while our intellect stands by in silence. When I pray like this I sometimes feel like I myself am standing by listening to the Holy Spirit pour out His experience of me to the Father who smiles or weeps . I feel like this because sometimes there is so much surprising expression in the prayer, much more emotion in the words I hear myself speaking than I could have found in the English language or even realized was within me. I don’t know if this is anyone else’s experience. For me, this hints at the experience of Romans 8:26-27, “The Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the One who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.” I might add that I pray this way in private, though on occasion, when I have prayed with someone for healing, the prayer tongues took on an intensity and ended with peace. I find tongues amazingly useful.

There is also the “tongues” which Paul seeks to regulate in a public forum, which is, a form of the gift of prophecy that needs interpreting when used in the public setting of a prayer meeting, or church. It benefits the whole assembly when interpreted or the unbeliever as in the true story Digital Deacon told, which has a touch of the miraculous.

Pentecost might have been all this and much much more. The people present to witness the disciples bold proclamations, experienced the miracle of hearing what it was that the disciples uttered in their own language and understood this to be a mystery they wondered about. ( Like Moses at the burning bush, a remarkable thing drawing them in for a closer look.).

Paul says, he would that we all spoke in tongues ( ! Cor 14:5). So tongues must be available to us for our use, God willing. It’s also a genuine gift of God and as such not to be passed over lightly because we prefer only the “higher gifts.” Personally, I’ll take anything God is willing to give me, especially the available and the commonplace. Just think how commonplace reading and writting is, but still very useful tools. If prayer-tongues frees my spirit to speak only to God, how glorious is that!! That I am a baby before God and can only babble mysteries shouldn’t anyone and in this gift babble is levated to mystery: hardly, a trivial, to be called the least of the gifts. The perfection of love still escapes me and will until I’m ready for Heaven but tongues I can manage in the here and now, in faith, believing!

Paul would have been speaking of the prayer tongues, most likely, when He said, “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.” (1 Cor 14: 18)
 
JJ B:
Dominvs - I agree and so does my priest. However, the point you are overlooking is the affect of turning a teen away from the church based on appearance. How is the “skanky whore” suppose to know any better when the church she attends kicks her out on the street? How is she supposed to change her ways and become the modest person we all want when nobody will show her the way? Besides, it is both my humble opinion and that of a few scholars that Jesus’ most beloved disciple was a “skanky whore”. Do not forget that He reached out to those we turn away. It is by Him that we have the ability to change. That change can not take place though if the poorly dressed teens are not allowed to meet Him.

Make no mistake; my priest does not simply turn a blind eye to these kids though. He will be the first to talk to the poorly dressed kid and ask them to dress more respectably. But as I said before, it is better to have that teen in church than not.

And About Music from you -

Give me a break.

Elvis Presley was a greater musician that the three tenors combined. John Lennon’s lyrics were somewhere between amazing and genius. Jimmy Hendrix could manipulate a guitar better than any opera singer can manipulate his/her voice. For you to strait out say that these are inferior forms of music and take less intellectual ability is hogwash. Note that I commented on your statement and not you personally. And I don’t mean to be offensive. So I apologize ahead of time if you found my words offensive.

DV, And either you see that Elvis Presley was a musical genius or you hide behind fancy Latin songs. I was in choir for 6 years. I had the privilege to perform at Carnegie Hall and both the Kennedy and Lincoln Centers. I have sung in at least 6 different languages and performed 3 versions of the Ave Maria. What does that mean? I’m tired of that stuff. I’ve been there and done that and have the tee-shirt. True, I’d rather go to an Andre Bocelli concert than some Christian band, but that’s because Bocelli is a pro. Most churches don’t have that caliber of singer to lead their congregation in song. When I hear a church (or even the musicians for that matter) sing in Latin it turns my skin because (as any other choral singers will agree) I was grilled in the proper pronunciation of words like, *Excelsis or Kyrie, *andtought to hate bad pronounciation. Most other people have not had that training. So when I hear a church butcher an Ave Maria it really just annoys me and then I can’t enjoy the mass. I can thank my rabid choir teachers for that.

I don’t think I’m better than anybody else. It’s just my preference to stick to music that people can actually sing and enjoy singing.

P.S. I did not mean to be disrespectful to any music ministers in here. You all work very hard and sing much better than I. I’m past my tenor prime and have long sense forgotten the joy of choral singing.
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Joanna,

I agree with you! You’re right but they will never listen to you because of their closed minds and hard hearts. You are wasting your time because trying to share with them is like :banghead: banging your head against a brick wall. No matter what you say be will have a rebuttle. 😦 Best thing to do is move on.

Blessings and Peace,
DigitalDeacon
 
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beng:
You want God to conform to young people so they don’t leave Him?

Odd. I thought it should be the other way around.
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What was the Great Commission Christ gave to His Church? What did He ask Peter 3 times and what was His reply to Peter?

It is the Church’s responsibilty to reach the lost and feed them. The lost are those young teens showing up at teen Masses with Black Sabbath t-shirts and short skirts.

We are warned in the Scriptures: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

How do you expect to reach those teens if they are not brought into the Church where they will hear the “Good News” of Jesus Christ proclaimed to them from the Scriptures? It is the Word of God which is powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword that will reach into those teens’ hearts and change them, but they have got to be in the Church…just as they are…in order to hear the Word of God proclaimed to them.

If people truly cared about the souls of teens, then they wouldn’t be complaining about the means used to reach them. It’s important to reach them right where they are at before there’s any hope of them growing in the faith.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is much more loving and forgiving to us sinners than I see some here being. Stop judging how the Church implements whatever means is necessary to bring the lost into her fold to teach them God’s Way for their lives. If music will bring them into the Church, then what is the problem using the music that attracts them? Is it not better to use the music of their culture to reach them then to see them spend an eternity in hell? Do you REALLY think the Lord would have a problem with this??? If so, then you do not know the “Love” of Christ in your own lives.

God bless
 
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DigitalDeacon:
Joanna,

I agree with you! You’re right but they will never listen to you because of their closed minds and hard hearts. You are wasting your time because trying to share with them is like :banghead: banging your head against a brick wall. No matter what you say be will have a rebuttle. 😦 Best thing to do is move on.

Blessings and Peace,
DigitalDeacon
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I agree with you Digital Deacon… The will always be a rebuttal and the best thing to do I guess is move on.

Just as there will always be rebuttals to the falsities of Protestants… there will be rebuttals to the falsities of the Charismatic movement. And if a Protesant just cannot accept that they have falsities in their theology… I guess the only thing one can do is move on.

By the way you are using the phrase “close minded” very liberally. One who is “close minded” is one who will not even give opposite views a chance, they will not let them into their mind… thus the term “close minded”. But those are not close minded who at once examined and tested a particular thing and then openly and fairly judged it to be false.

You cannot, within good reason, call everyone closed minded who does not accept everything you do. Just because I reject something doesn’t make me close minded. If that is the case I can level the same charge against Charismatics and say “you all are close minded for not accepting our views…”
 
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MIDGIE:
Stop judging how the Church implements whatever means is necessary to bring the lost into her fold to teach them God’s Way for their lives. If music will bring them into the Church, then what is the problem using the music that attracts them? Is it not better to use the music of their culture to reach them then to see them spend an eternity in hell? Do you REALLY think the Lord would have a problem with this??? If so, then you do not know the “Love” of Christ in your own lives.

God bless
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Yes I think there is a problem with this and yes I think Christ would see a problem with it. The mass is not to be used like a tool or plaything for evangelization… It is the corporate worship of Holy Mother Church. Much evangelization can be done outside of the mass and you can use the music you like to reach them there…

If we want to start breaking the tradition of the liturgy and tweaking it with “whatever means…” it becomes not the worship of the Church but merely a tool for evangelization…

The mass is the place you bring the evangelized into the full communion with the Church. They must be instructed as to what worship is, what goes on at mass, etc.
 
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y2daddy:
Another thread about charismatics? Boy oh boy.
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Well the main purpose of this thread was to examine how the meaning/traditions of the mass have been lost to many people… please read the very first post…
 
James,

I guess I did paint with a broad brush. I don’t mean everyone but I think I have experienced some closed minds in this forum.

DigitalDeacon
 
JJ B:
I think I am confused as to what you define as “scripture based” music. Are you speaking of the songs that come out of a hymnal or are some of those also non-scriptural? Also, I never said that Jesus was bored of our music, old or new. In fact, I said, My point was not that God is bored, but rather He welcomes different methods of worship or different types of songs. To which rubric are you referring?
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JJ -

Thanks for getting the tone of this thread back on track.

“Rubric” was probably a poor choice of word. “Scripturally based” means simply that the words are from scripture or from close adaptations of scripture. And I *just *learned in my research that certain other songs can be approved, but I have not yet figured out how that approval is obtained, I’ll let you know when I do (next day or two).

Peace back at ya…
 
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