Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

[tcaseyrochester]

JJ B:

Do you sing Amazing Grace at your church? Sorry to inform you but that is a pop song. It’s just old. Have you ever listened to the words of Awesome God?

“Our God is an Awesome God. He reigns from heaven above, with wisdom, power and love, our God is an awesome God.”

And that’s just the chorus. Please tell me what part of this song strays from the Bible. Is it the part about God being in heaven?

The truth is, worship is personal. You like the oldies, I like the new stuff.

Well, you are correct that Amazing Grace is not scripturally based, so my choice is to not use it. It does get used sometimes but that’s a shame. I do, however, have a large repetoire of excellent music composed within the last ten years that I do play often. Its not a question of old versus new, nor is it a question of boring our Lord (what must He think of the “Our Father” using your logic?) It is a question of obeying the rubrics for selection of music, which “Awesome God” does not any more than “Jesus loves me this I know because the bible tells me so.”

But thanks for your thoughful response to my post!

 

[WhiteDove]

I love Amazing Grace. What a special song. I esp love the last verse.

“When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.”

Did you ever read the history of the song?

 

[James_2_24]

mjs:

I think we should not as lay people have control of the form of worship but be obedient to Holy Mother Church and what she says true worship should be."

But we are the Church - its leaders are servants to us.

Yes, Chants… and/or organ… If neither can be done… the alternative would be a solemn mass without hymns.
If the mass is solemn and chants are used there really isn’t an alternative or choir even needed. Daily masses are like this all the time… In fact, many Eastern parishes have no need for choirs… "

The Mass is all music - The Gloria, Gospel Acclamation are two Mass parts that should only be done if sung - yes, you can sing acapella or you can chant but I don’t think I believe that many of the Eastern Churches function without music. I think it is more integral to their worship than to ours. My question was - I believe - are you willing to provide an alternative? Can you actually lead the chant you feel can replace a guitar (or any other instrumentation) at church?

If what you mean by this is leaving the Church over whether or not you can play your guitar during liturgy… i really don’t understand why you would do that. If the Church told you today (from Rome) that guitars were no longer allowed in liturgy… would you leave because of that? If so, the truth does not mean much to you.

And you are being ridiculous. I have been a Catholic all my life and a Music Minister since the age of 18. Get up and leave the Church because someone like you won’t allow me to play my guitar at Mass? And Rome would never ban the use of guitars - “Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath give praise to the Lord!. Hallelujah!” It is not the instrumentation that has been called into question in the last little while, but the manner in which it is used. Guitar music can be just as reverent as anything else. I just pray to God that if they do make changes to the Liturgy that I know and love, I wouldn’t gripe and grumble about it for the rest of my life.

Now if you are talking about leaving this forum cause people don’t agree with you… come on! Not everyone is going to agree with you anywhere you go. It not just about having to feel good all the time with the people you are talking to. Relax.
And no, I am not talking about the leaving the forum because people disagree with me, but because of the narrow-minded, only one way is the right way, kind of nonsense I am hearing on this list and many others I have joined over the years. Yes, debate is good, and we don’t always have to agree about everything. However, my impression has always been, traditional or contemporary, we are all Catholics under the skin. It appears here though, that I am but an inferior Catholic or not a true Catholic because I am not a traditionalist. Get comfortable with that idea? I don’t think so - but thanks for caring about me. But I am comfortable with the notion that some of the churches I attend on my travels have organ music (I have yet to attend one that had no music at all in the last several years, at least on Sunday) and some have piano and some have guitar, although not all appeal to me to the same degree. And I participate as fully as my knowledge of the music will allow.

 

[James_2_24]

mjs:

But we are the Church - its leaders are servants to us.

The leaders are first and foremost servants of God. The Church is not a democracy. WE the laity do not have and should not have control of the form of worship. That is the job of the magisterium in its service to the true God. They lay down the rubrics.

mjs:

The Mass is all music - The Gloria, Gospel Acclamation are two Mass parts that should only be done if sung - yes, you can sing acapella or you can chant but I don’t think I believe that many of the Eastern Churches function without music. I think it is more integral to their worship than to ours.

The gloria can certainly be done without singing or chanting it at all. It has been done that way many times and has been done that way for a long time. About the Eastern Churches you are dead wrong. I have been involved and studied Eastern Liturgies for a long time. I use to attend a Byzantine Church and have seen Melkite divine liturgies. Take a look at the Orthodox Churches. Especially Syriac. Its very solemn and mostly chant. I have many Eastern Orthodox friends and they think it is “liberal” to even have a organ in the liturgy! You can’t even begin to talk to them about guitar.

mjs:

And you are being ridiculous.

No actually I thought you were, cause I thought you wanted to “pick up your guitar and leave” mainly due to the fact that people are expressing their opinions that are different than yours. Sounds much like a kid who wants to “pick up his toys and go home” if others want to express their opinions. My mistake…

mjs:

Get up and leave the Church because someone like you won’t allow me to play my guitar at Mass? And Rome would never ban the use of guitars -

I believe they have in the past… before VII. And I think it is possible they could again if we get a traditionalist in the seat of the papacy.

mjs:

“Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath give praise to the Lord!. Hallelujah!”

This demonstrates the point I made as the VERY FIRST post in this thread. A lack of knowledge of liturgy from the earliest times. These quotations were not instructional to Jewish Temple Worship. But rather were chants used talking about Jewish life outside of the liturgy. Read the Mishnah.

mjs:

And no, I am not talking about the leaving the forum because people disagree with me, but because of the narrow-minded, only one way is the right way, kind of nonsense I am hearing on this list and many others I have joined over the years. Yes, debate is good, and we don’t always have to agree about everything.

You shouldn’t have to leave the forum for any of those reasons. I was just called narrow-minded by you… That isn’t going make me pack up my toys and go home… I will stay right here with my views to express them.

mjs:

However, my impression has always been, traditional or contemporary, we are all Catholics under the skin. It appears here though, that I am but an inferior Catholic or not a true Catholic because I am not a traditionalist.

Of course we are all Catholics. Now you are putting words in my mouth. Did I say you were inferior? No, but i believe that the form of worship is inferior… And I have a right to that opinion and a right to express it. You also have a right to believe me narrow minded for holding that position. But again, that isn’t going to make me run away from the situation. I’ll be here to discuss and talk like the rest of us. No need to run…

mjs:

Get comfortable with that idea? I don’t think so - but thanks for caring about me.

You don’t have to be comfortable with that idea. Nor do I have to feel comfortable that the kind of liturgy in existence. Again, the Eastern Churches don’t have all that in them. I can refer you to several Easterns and/or Orthodox that will scoff at the idea. One told me he went to check out a Catholic Church out of curiosity and was looking for “Billy Graham” to come out, he coudln’t believe the guitars, and what seemed like a full band for mass.

---

With all that being said I would like to bring this to a close with you right here. We must agree to disagree. Yes we are both Catholics and no you aren’t any less “true Catholic” or “inferior”… I never said that. I’m simply expressing my views as are you. It may have done it bluntly at times… maybe even without charity… for that I apologize… But no need to go running from a Catholic forum because you don’t feel appreciated… How will you ever deal with Protestants who may tell you, you aren’t even Christian?

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[DominvsVobiscvm]

The problem with “personalizing” the Mass, in such a radical way that it departs substantially from the Church’s tradition, is that the worship of God is not merely personal, but corporate as well.

Worship that is based exclusively or primarily on emotions is sappy and weak. Man’s soul is tripartite: intellect, will, and passions. In the well-ordered soul, the intellect is prime, and the passions are subject to it.

Ironically, when the Mass is emotionalized and tailored to a specific emotion (i.e. superficial notions of happiness and joy), it then loses its appeal to anyone not experiencing that emotion. What if I don’t feel like jumping up and down and smiling? What if I’m in a bad mood when I’m at Mass? I should be able to worship God and thus “get something” out of Mass even when I don’t feel “groovy.”

The way teens dress is very important! Modesty is a virtue, and inentional immodesty is a sin. How is any teenage boy with blood flowing through his veins supposed to remain chaste if the girls in his church are all dressed like skanky whores? C’mon!

Its only fitting that a universal Church have universal rites, and this holds true especially of the Mass. While there will always be use for some variation, the Roman rite has its rubrics which must be followed, and one of these directives is that Gregorian chant have pride of place in the Mass, and Latin be used enough that all the faithful know the Ordinaries (i.e. the parts of the Mass that don’t change) by heart–in Latin!

Remember, its not just the words to rock-n-roll that make it bad music, its the actual music itself, which by its nature isn’t so much beautiful as it is immediately self-gratifying. Plato in his Republic goes to great lengths to demonstrate and insist on the need for musical education in our young people, and our need to teach them to differentiate between good and bad music. In fact, Plato thought musical education to be at the foundation of the teaching of virtue! One who cannot differentiate between good and bad music will not be able to differentiate between moral good and evil!

I don’t know how to exactly “prove” Platio’s thesis, except to have us fall back on our anecdotal experiences. Certain people are attracted to certain kinds of music, and music itself has the power to shape our characters. This is something you either see or you don’t. Either you see that Palestrina’s Sicut Cervus surpasses Our God Is an Awesome God in beauty, or you don’t.

In short, rock-n-roll and secular music stirs and feeds the passions, while sacred music, especially Gregorian chant, silences and subdues them, so that we may more fully worship God in spirit and in truth.

I’m not saying that we can’t use secular and rock-n-roll to reach teens. But we can have these kind of “Christian concerts” outside of Mass, make them extra-liturgical. At Mass, we could try to instill in them the Church’s spirituality, slowly but surely. As Catholic Christians, we do have to meet people at their level; but we don’t stop there. We meet them at their level, so we can bring them up to the Church’s level, which is nothing less than Heaven!

 

[James_2_24]

DominvsVobiscvm:

The problem with “personalizing” the Mass, in such a radical way that it departs substantially from the Church’s tradition, is that the worship of God is not merely personal, but corporate as well.

Worship that is based exclusively or primarily on emotions is sappy and weak. Man’s soul is tripartite: intellect, will, and passions. In the well-ordered soul, the intellect is prime, and the passions are subject to it.

I meant to make that point. The mass is the corporate or community worship of the Church. It is not to be personalized, but uniform. The worhip that is personal is your private prayer and personal relationship with God. But the mass is the corporate worship where we come together as one Body in Christ

 

[tcaseyrochester]

WhiteDove:

I love Amazing Grace. What a special song. I esp love the last verse.

“When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.”

Did you ever read the history of the song?

Its beautiful. I love Amazing Grace (both the words and the music)and I am very familiar with the trials of John Newton which led him to compose it. All I am saying is that according to the rubric for the selection of liturgical music, Amazing Grace is not a liturgically correct “hymn.” Great at retreats and youth groups, just not at mass.

 

[tcaseyrochester]

James_2:24:

I have been a Catholic all my life and a Music Minister since the age of 18. Get up and leave the Church because someone like you won’t allow me to play my guitar at Mass? And Rome would never ban the use of guitars…

Of course guitars will always be allowed at mass. You can play bongos as long as the music is prayerful, scripturally based, pertinent, and respectful of the Eucharist.

 

[beng]

JJ B:

lukefan (and the rest in here),

I attended Life Teen at St. Timothy’s Church in Mesa AZ. This is the church you can thank for starting this whole Life Teen craze (I use craze in a respectful manner). I hated this mass at first because I grew up with a very traditional family and church. I also found the music too loud, hand gestures annoying, and overall experience too showy. Then one day, after many years of my parents FORCING me to church each Sunday night, I realized that the congregation was growing. Each week it seemed more and more teens were showing up. Each week more and more teens with Black Sabbath shirts, and very tiny skirts. Somebody mentioned to the priest that they thought this mass was disrespectful because of the loud music and the teenagers choice of clothing. My priests reply, “I’d rather they be here wearing those clothes than out there naked.”

We live in a different time. Kids want different things these days. It is so much easier for them to avoid church now because they all have a car and a place to be. My priest wanted that place to be church. So he adapted. He brought “their” music, and allowed them to wear “their” clothes. Now this doesn’t mean he lets everything go, but take it from a kid who didn’t want to be there…I’m happy and blessed that this church/priest exist and that they reached out to the ones everyone else forgets. My church still offers 3 masses in the morning that most would consider “traditional”. The one in the evenings is for teens, though a few hundred adults show up too.

Besides, who are we to judge the way we worship Christ? Some prefer soft piano and acoustic guitar, others prefer a set of drums and electric guitar. Do you think Jesus cares? I don’t.

You want God to conform to young people so they don’t leave Him?

Odd. I thought it should be the other way around.

 

[beng]

“I like coffee, you like tea, and that is the reason we can’t agree!”

It’s not what you or I like. It’s what God likes.

 

[WhiteDove]

Oh right, God is deeply, deeply offended by handclapping and guitar music at Mass, I forgot. Mea Culpa! This troubling issue has brought great shame on us all…

God also dislikes teenagers just as much as middle aged people do, it turns out! They ARE pretty annoying, I’ll have to agree with him on that one! He likes pianos better than guitars, and he likes organs the best. He prefers Europeans over Africans because their culture is more reserved and less prone to nasty handclapping. I see now, thanks for setting me straight…

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

I think you’re missing the point, Dove.

God also dislikes teenagers just as much as middle aged people do, it turns out! They ARE pretty annoying, I’ll have to agree with him on that one! He likes pianos better than guitars, and he likes organs the best.

Rock-n-Roll, heavy metal, rap, etc. are not evil in and of themselves, but they’re definitely an inferior form of music (as they are less structured and put less emphasis on the human voice; they require less intellectual ability to appreciate them and are catered for those who want immediate, and only immediate gratification). And the Church’s tradition has always discerned that they are not appropriate for Holy Mass.

He prefers Europeans over Africans because their culture is more reserved and less prone to nasty handclapping.

Things like dancing and hand-clapping have been incorporated into the Mass solemnly in some parts of Africa. There’s a variant of the Roman rite called the Missa Luba which is solemn, Roman, and African.

However, such is not appropriate for America which, as a predominantly Western culture, things like dancing and hand-clapping have never been associated with divine worship, but with secular enjoyments. (With dancing you also have the connotation of erotic sensuality.)

 

[WhiteDove]

I disagree. As we see more and more people converting from more expressive forms of Christianity, such as Pentacostals, you’ll see that our church culture will change. Plus, African Americans are very much a part of our culture. Are you suggesting that we not welcome them into the Catholic Church?

America is very much a mult-cultural place, with less and less of a Euro-centric flavor, which is only going to increase over time. And we ARE influenced by our Protestant brethren, many of whom have converted to Catholicism. Just head down South and go to a tent revival and see what I mean. Or check out a black church. No, you are wrong, America is no longer just for the white man and neither should the Church be.

 

[system]

I have a problem with the Charismatic movement, and all the hugging that goes on after it, I feel uncomfortable with it, and when I feel that way nothing can convince me that it’s right.
Don’t get me wrong if that’s for them then I have no problem with it, but it’s not for me, like praying in public I don’t care much for it, apart from Mass and I won’t miss that if at all possible.
When Jesus went up to Heaven he promised to send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and they were in bad need of the Holy spirit because they were so afraid.
So with Mary the mother of Jesus they prayed for 9 days,and Catholics have what is known as novenas, well this was the first Novena, and the received the Holy Spirit and wern’t afraid anymore,and wen’t out and preached to people of differen’t languages and each understood in there own language.
So this is speaking in tongues to me, also I don’t know if anyone has noticed but no matter where Mary appears in the world, she can speak the language regardless of where she appears.
I said this to someone recently and they said,well maybe Mary knows many languages but my explanation is because she is the bride of the Holy Spirit, then it follows that Mary is full of the Holy Spirit.
I don’t think you can force the Holy Spirit to come into you just by clicking your fingers, to me it takes prayer.
Anyway these are my own thoughts and ideas on the subject, and no more than that can I say, thanks for listening.

 

[beng]

WhiteDove:

Oh right, God is deeply, deeply offended by handclapping and guitar music at Mass, I forgot. Mea Culpa! This troubling issue has brought great shame on us all…

Ina sense. Yes.

So, don’t do that.

God also dislikes teenagers

Did I say this?

just as much as middle aged people do, it turns out!

Did I say this?

They ARE pretty annoying, I’ll have to agree with him on that one!

Did I say this?

He likes pianos better than guitars, and he likes organs the best.

Did I say this?

He prefers Europeans over Africans because their culture is more reserved and less prone to nasty handclapping. I see now, thanks for setting me straight…

Did I say this?

One cute looking straw men you have there.

 

[beng]

WhiteDove:

I disagree. As we see more and more people converting from more expressive forms of Christianity, such as Pentacostals,

Stats?

you’ll see that our church culture will change.

Change to thatb of Protestant’s

Plus, African Americans are very much a part of our culture. Are you suggesting that we not welcome them into the Catholic Church?

We love the Africans. They have great faith there.

And we ARE influenced by our Protestant brethren, many of whom have converted to Catholicism.

Throw away any Protestant flavor.

We might need Trent II to anathemized any Protestant tace

Just head down South and go to a tent revival and see what I mean. Or check out a black church. No, you are wrong, America is no longer just for the white man and neither should the Church be.

First of all, do you think that ALL black Catholics are those pentacostal Charismatic types?

UNLIKELY!!!

Because of our shortage of priest there are quite African priests here. And you know what, it seems that they are ORTHODOX and NOT the charismatic/pentacostal type.

During the Divine Mercy Mass at EWTN there’s one black priest WHO BOW DURING THE {b]Who were born of the Virgin Mary and became Man part of Credo. HE WAS THE ONLY CELEBRANT TO DO SO!!!

In Tridentine Mass, everyone kneel during that (“et incarnatus est…”). In the current misselete we’re suppose to bow and genuflect during solemnity. But did anyone do it? NOOOOOO!!

That priest is one reverent priest, and so does other African priest (maybe African born priest are more reverent than African American priest cough +Gregory cough)

 

[Veritas60]

Beng,
I think you have hit the nail on the head!
You mention the reverence displayed by the priest in the EWTN
mass. This is what is missing in the hand clapping & guitar masses.
REVERENCE in the presence of Our Lord in the Tabernacle and on the Altar
Lack of Reverence during mass is a major problem.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

As a teenager, I’m deeply offended by the insinuation, put forward by old, middle-aged charismatics on this forum, that the Mass has to be dumbed-down and de-Catholicized in order for me to appreciate it.

I went to a black high school in the ghetto; if I were black, I’m sure I’d likewise be offended.

I’m nineteen years old; I promise you, that the vast majority of teens going to a “LifeTeen” or other crazy Mass are only doing so because it gives them a temporary thrill, and/or to please their Catholic parents.

The last thing teenagers need is to be accommodated. At their young years, they need a healthy dose of discipline and mortification, which is what the Church’s liturgy is supposed to offer. By its very nature, its supposed to make us go outside of ourselves; we cannot live for God until we first die to ourselves, and this involves mortifying one’s passions, which is exactly what sacred music does. In a sense, the liturgy, and the liturgical year, is designed so that it breaks you down, only to build you up to God. Anyone who follows the solemn liturgies of Lent, and then Easter, can testify to this.

Not having ingested a more mature Catholicism, having had their faith tailored to them, having failed to acquire any sense of spiritual discipline, which a traditional liturgy offers, they won’t stand a chance of maintaining their faith once they reach college. Having been accommodated their whole life, even in church, how will they stand a chance against the temptations they encounter? Why won’t they accommodate themselves when the sexy girl or guy shows up and offers them pleasures far exceeding the sensations of a “LiveTeen” or “Charismatic” Mass.?!?!

It may seem ludicrous, but this stuff really does help to shape character and virtue. Of course, traditionalists are also prone to sins and temptations; don’t get me wrong. But Catholics with a sappy spirituality have even more facors mitigating against them.

Anyone but me notice that at “charismatic” Masses, the vast majority of people there are not young, or even black? Rather, they’re a bunch of old, middle-age white people pretending to be “black”; their children, if they are practicing Catholic, are entering seminaries and religious orders who celebrate liturgies in accordance with the Church’s rubrics and tradition.

Maybe its just me . . .

 

[WhiteDove]

I can see that this thread has become unfruitful. With so much strong emotion about this, it is easy for people to misinterpert another’s comments, which I believe is happening here. As far as being offended, St Theresa of Avila says in her book that we should never be offended, but instead offer it up to God. I think she is very wise about the spiritual path and I’ll try and take her advise.

I’m sorry if you all took my post in a negative way. I think I’ll exit this discussion now, you make a lot of good points. God bless…

 

[JJ_B]

White Dove, good point…emotions are running high so I will try not to provoke anyone. That is never my intention of course.

Tcasey,

I think I am confused as to what you define as “scripture based” music. Are you speaking of the songs that come out of a hymnal or are some of those also non-scriptural? Also, I never said that Jesus was bored of our music, old or new. In fact, I said,

For 2 thousand years He’s had to listen to the same old tunes being sung by every church in every land. And you know what, I bet He loves every dog gone one of them.

My point was not that God is bored, but rather He welcomes different methods of worship or different types of songs.

It is a question of obeying the rubrics for selection of music, which “Awesome God” does not any more than “Jesus loves me this I know because the bible tells me so.”

To which rubric are you referring?

I think the issue here is not church doctrine on music but rather a personal prejudice or preference. Now, I don’t mean “prejudice” in a negative sense, and certainly NOT in the racial sense. It is in our conservative nature to be anti-change and as Catholics we love our historic and traditional roots. Nobody is changing that. My church offers 1 mass on Sundays that one might consider too “pop-ish”. But this is simply done to reach out to a generation who typically don’t like hymnals and chants.

Don’t get the wrong idea though. The jazzed up music typically consists of an opening and closing song. The psalm responses (though written by our music ministers for the most part) are all done very traditionally. The opening song is a little more up beat but you really don’t see the clapping and dancing until the closing song. And yes, when the service ends out our church we say, “The mass never ends, it must be lived. So let us go out to love and serve the Lord. Thanks be to God. Hallelujah!”

Many people don’t feel comfortable in that environment the first few times they go to a teen mass. Some never feel comfortable. It’s a matter of opinion and one that really can’t be argued. If you don’t like it, then that’s ok. As much as we think you would enjoy the teen mass, the 4 or 5 hundred people there won’t mind if you attend the earlier service or even another church in the area.

Peace, JJ