Hands Clapping and Guitar masses... Charismatics

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MIDGIE:
Teens are children, too.
Part of the problem is the ever-increasing length of adolescence in our society. People are taking too long to grow up in America. Not everything has to be fun. Some things need to be done properly. The mass is the sacrifice of Christ. We should rejoice in what He did for us. We should rejoice that God loves us so much that he came to earth and sacrificed himself so that we could be with him. But the sacrifice itself should be treated with reverence.
 
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mjs:
Yes, Chants… and/or organ… If neither can be done… the alternative would be a solemn mass without hymns.

If the mass is solemn and chants are used there really isn’t an alternative or choir even needed. Daily masses are like this all the time… In fact, many Eastern parishes have no need for choirs… "

The Mass is all music - The Gloria, Gospel Acclamation are two Mass parts that should only be done if sung - yes, you can sing acapella or you can chant but I don’t think I believe that many of the Eastern Churches function without music. I think it is more integral to their worship than to ours. My question was - I believe - are you willing to provide an alternative? Can you actually lead the chant you feel can replace a guitar (or any other instrumentation) at church?
Well, I could. But, then, I’m a trained vocalist. Organ is prefereable, IMO. And the church’s since every parish church is supposed to have one (it’s in the Catechism)

My problem with current church music is that so much of it is so badly written. Not the lyrics so much as the composition. I grew up in the midst of the Jesuit folk movement and frankly outgrew it. There is a body of work of church music that is unparalleled anywhere that is not being used.

And for a lot of us, quiet away from all the noise of everyday life is far more spiritually inspiring.
 
JJ B:
Dominvs - I was in choir for 6 years. I had the privilege to perform at Carnegie Hall and both the Kennedy and Lincoln Centers. I have sung in at least 6 different languages and performed 3 versions of the Ave Maria. What does that mean? I’m tired of that stuff. I’ve been there and done that and have the tee-shirt. True, I’d rather go to an Andre Bocelli concert than some Christian band, but that’s because Bocelli is a pro. Most churches don’t have that caliber of singer to lead their congregation in song. When I hear a church (or even the musicians for that matter) sing in Latin it turns my skin because (as any other choral singers will agree) I was grilled in the proper pronunciation of words like, *Excelsis or Kyrie, *andtought to hate bad pronounciation. Most other people have not had that training. So when I hear a church butcher an Ave Maria it really just annoys me and then I can’t enjoy the mass. I can thank my rabid choir teachers for that.
Well, I’ve been in and around choirs and choruses for over 20 years (as well as being a soloist) and pronunciation is totally subjective. Every director has a different idea. And they all seem to think they are correct.

I’d rather hear the older material mainly because it’s easier to sing and it’s written quite well. It also teaches more effectively.

And, IMO, Andrea Boccelli has a good marketing agent. Jose Carreras - now there’s a tenor.
 
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jp2fan:
All this talk about the crucifixion, Calvary, etc is a little bti offputting to me. Of course, the Mass is a sacrifice. No denial of that here. But at the same time, it is a CELEBRATION! You cannot focus on one without the other. jp2fan
Like I said if you are misinformed - Let me give you a devotional method of assisting at Mass.
  1. Priest goes to the Altar -
    Christ goes to the Garden of Olives
  2. Priest begins Mass
    Christ begins to pray
  3. Priest says the Confiteor
    Christ prostrates in Agony and sweating blood
  4. Priest kisses the Altar
    Christ betrayed by Judas with a Kiss
  5. Priest goes to the Epistle side (readings)
    Christ bound and taken to Annas the high priest, is struck and spat upon.
etc. etc. If any would like the rest of this devotion I’d be glad to give it.

Here are some thoughts when attending Mass
  1. Go to Mas as if you were going to Calvary and conduct yourself before the altar as before the throne of God, in company with the holy angels who are present at every Mass
  2. The Holy Sacrifice is identical with that which was offered on the Cross of Calvary
  3. Say an Act of Contrition before Mass and place yourself in the presence of Christ
  4. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest thing in the whole world!
You use the word “celebration” like you are attending a birthday party. You speak volumes when you say you are put off by Sacrafice. I am left with the conclusion that you have no idea what you are participating in. Mass is no party
 
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jp2fan:
Thirdly, you seem to be ignoring the rest of what I said. Of course it is a sacrifice. I said that already. But at the same time, it is a celebration!!! Ok? Christ doesn’t die again at every Mass.
Again you are misinformed - the old law required a bloody sacrifice. With Jesus came the new law which still requires a sacrifice. Jesus replaced the bloody sacrifice and made himself the victim(Lamb of God). The Mass thus becomes the unbloody sacrifice. Although you find this displeasing it is basic Catechism.

“Thy heavenly Father, outraged, the approach of Thy passion and sufferings, and their uselessness with regard to so many sinners, who, notwithstanding the shedding of Thy blood for them would be lost forever”
 
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mjs:
So my last question is this - did I come to the right place to find others who wish to grow in their faith and serve the Lord with the gifts He has given or should I pack up my guitar and look for a more welcoming group of people?

mjs
Actually, this kind of discussion is exactly what I hoped would be here! Where else can you have a search for the truth where good Catholics can debate subjects that they have questions about and learn from each other? Even if that learning includes differences of opinion, it can be charitable and fruitful if we are all seeking God’s truth together. Stay with us and contribute your thoughts - be ready to convince others and to be convinced as we seek and share the truth in love together!
 
Wow! I’m sorry to have joined this thread so late. I just read most of it and it sparked **many **thoughts.

**A little Catholic Anthropology: **I am far from being a music expert, but I have some knowledge in Catholic anthropology and human nature that I apply to my opinions about liturgy and music. We are physical and emotional beings, and emotions are part of us as well as intellect and will.

The goal of many Protestant services tends to be to affect the emotions in the hopes of attracting people to Christ, and perhaps with the ultimate goal of lifting the will to God. The problem with this focus (which also seems to be the focus of some Catholic uses of music, etc) is that our fallen nature makes it more difficult to transition from our emotional experience to the spiritual connections of intellect and will. In other words, once our emotions are fired up, we tend to focus only on the emotional experience. I have seen this phenomenon occur in a lot of teen experiences - they get fired up emotionally and think Catholicism is the greatest thing in the world, but fail to make the transition into a real sense of faith. Once the emotional experience is forgotten, so is Christ. Also, the emotional high such experiences cause can become addicting, causing students to come back to such experiences for all the wrong reasons. I have even seen very unhealthy relationships form between teens wrapped up in an emotional sense of closeness and loving friendship not based on true intimacy and charity. On the other hand, I have also experienced skillful youth ministers able to help students make the transition from the initial emotional attraction to the movement of the intellect and will.

In contrast, the goal of the Mass (and most Catholic prayer) is to fill the intellect with truth and to raise the will to God. The assumption is that the emotions will follow the movement of the will, which ideally they should in a fully mature, self-disciplined person. However, people who are growing in their spiritual life may find traditional Catholic prayer “boring” because they have not yet learned to move their will toward God without help of the emotions. They are moved by a good homily or by a song that they like, rather than already being moved toward God in their hearts and then using the homily or the music to enhance and celebrate their relationship with Him.

**On liturgical music: **My problem with most liturgical music is that it seems so disjointed with what is happening in the Mass. I believe that the music should give us emotional *and *intellectual cues for how we should be directing our hearts during various parts of the Mass. For example, the offertory hymn is so often the place in the Mass where musicians insert their favorite hymns or where choirs do their showcase pieces. However, I think the offertory music should be chosen to lead us to make an offering of our lives to the Father as we prepare to participate in Christ’s offering to Him.

Secondly, good music should help us to bridge the gap between our emotions and our will. Traditional Catholic liturgy did this by appealing to our sense of beauty - which is something that I would like to see a return to. However, much of the contemporary praise and worship music may also be able to do this. The balance is not to let the praise and worship music take over. I’ve been to teen events where teenagers would shout out requests for their favorite music **during a **Mass. The focus on Christ was lost to the emotional high. I think the same danger exists with adults in much less obvious ways. Music should be carefully and artfully chosen to draw us into the Mass, not into the music for the music’s own sake. To me, this issue is much more important than the style of music used.

On the Charismatic movement: I don’t think there is any question that charisms are given by the Holy Spirit. A greater acknowledgement of these charisms could do a lot to increase the fervor of the faith within the Church. However, most of these charisms are not extraordinary - like healing, prophecy, or tongues. Most of them are quiet builders of faith - like the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, a calling into deeper prayer, the gift of leadership, the gift of teaching, or the gift of hospitality. These more “mundane” gifts should not be overlooked. They are in many ways more faith-building than the extraordinary gifts. The warnings of Paul about the abuse of charisms are extremely applicable today. I wonder if the Charismatic movement sometimes falls into the trap of focusing too much on these gifts, as Paul warned us not to. Charismatic gifts are intended for the building up of the Church. Like liturgical music, they should not draw us to themselves, but they should draw us to Christ and His Church.

I hope these thoughts are still useful!
 
JMJ

Reading through these posts leaves me very sad, but very thankful that I experienced the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for many years before the Novus Ordo and the overwhelming, associated changes in Church design, decor, and “bringing up to date.” There is no relationship evident in too many of the above posts to the Christocentric purpose of the Holy Sacrifice. The switch to homocentric themes and purposes is staggering.

While the Holy Sacrifice can have a Sacramental element beyond the Holy Eucharist; such as, an ordination, a wedding, a funeral, and other very solemn Church ceremonies, the sine qua non is the priest offering, with the laity assisting, the Infinite Sacrifice to God for our personal sins and the sins of all mankind. The priest and the individual assisting should remember during every moment in the Church that they are in the Real Presence of God. They are there to bend their knees and and to bow their heads in abject humility and submission to God, begging for His Mercy in full recognition, admission, sorrow, rejection, resolution, and amendment for their sins.

They are not there to see others and to be seen, not to display their talents and accomplishments, not to be entertained or amused. They are there to fall on their knees and beg for God’s forgiveness. They are not there to wonder how this parish and/or this priest does Mass. Prior to the *Novus Ordo * and the uncountable, associated changes, the Holy Sacrifice of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church was the same throughout the world. The Missal you carried gave you all of the words and rubrics translated into your native tongue; and they were followed strictly. You were completely at home in a French, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch village Church where not one other person spoke your language.

The music during Mass should contribute a mood in complete conformity to the purpose of the Mass, principly adoration and humble submission. Organ music had been determined to be the most effective and the least intrusive to this end. Foot tapping or being lost in a song is not proper to the purpose of the Mass. The organist and the choir are best hidden behind the laity to prevent distraction.

Clothing, especially headress, used to be a symbol of power, position, or wealth for men. In Church men removed their headress in humility. For women their hair was "their crowning glory. In Church women covered their hair. This remained a required custom and a public demonstartion of humility until those “associated” changes following “in the spirit” of the Novus Ordo.

I’ve said in other threads that this is not a nostalgia for times past as so many acuse us. It is a great sadness that the awe, the mystery, the adoration exhibited in Church and especially during Mass has been reduced monumentally. I recognize that some priests have maintained or re-instituted proper decorum and attitude within the limitations of the Novus Ordo, but these are exceptions, and in my experience rare exceptions, when compared to the researched and restored Mass required by Saint Pius V in his encyclical, *Quo Primum * (1570).

.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm

As a personal opinion, my opinion can be dismissed, but the statistics show clearly and emphatically that immediately after these changes, Mass attendence has dropped severely, the belief in the Real Presence has dropped from above 90% to below 20%, that many Catholics have left the Church, that holy vocations have almost disappeared in the diocese exhibiting the most “modern” adaptations, that Catholic schools at all levels openly teach heresy and blasphemy.

Of course, the Church and its functions were not perfect or without sin and apostacy prior to the Novus Ordo, but for those who have prolonged experience, both before and after, the difference is phenominal.

I pray for a Universal Indult. I **totally disagree ** with those who say or hint that the *Novus Ordo * is illicit or that the Chair of Peter is vacant The Pope has the authority to establish a Mass which has only the Consecration and Communion to be offered in back yards on Sundays. Would that be wise, or the best human method to offer the Sacrifice? Would that better demonstrate in human terms our Offering to God in reparation for our sins. Again in my opinion, I think not. Likewise, I believe that the Novus Ordo has not produced any of the advertised advantages, but has resulted in many effects contrary to those advantages.

May God bless us all.
 
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Arrowood:
, people who are growing in their spiritual life may find traditional Catholic prayer “boring” because they have not yet learned to move their will toward God without help of the emotions. They are moved by a good homily or by a song that they like, rather than already being moved toward God in their hearts and then using the homily or the music to enhance and celebrate their relationship with Him
Thank you for your thoughts Arrowood. After reading your response it has just hit me out of the blue what the core of the problem is, althought there are many differences of opinions here, and of course everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but the truth of the matter is entirely different. The laity have been using the music for their own enjoyment, their interest lie in what they get out of the music, they want the music to move or motivate them. You are precisely right. What is missing here is the union with God. Church music is not intended for the laity. When the monks of old chanted the Magnificat, “My soul doth magnify the Lord” it was not for their personal pleasure, their chants were carried on the wings of seraphim, intended for Almighty God. Like whispers loftily floating to heaven for the soul desire to sing praise and adoration to Almighty God.

“We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord” just doesn’t cut it.
 
Just a couple of questions/thoughts as I continue to follow this thread.

First, could someone please point me to exactly where in the Catechism that it states every church should have an organ. While this may true, I have been unable to find reference to it. Also, if there is no organist, is there to be no music? Referring to the Catechism (I actually do own a copy) music “forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy.” So please don’t tell me that Sunday Mass should be celebrated without music.

Also, I do not do what I do as Music Coordinator because I like attention or feel that my job is to “entertain” the congregation. In fact, I have always believed just the opposite, that a choir and/or musicians are there to lead the congregation in sung prayer. And the songs are always chosen to lead the faithful to a deeper understanding of the texts they are hearing and the actions they are seeing performed by the priest.

At two of the Masses I play at, the choir sings from the choir loft at the back of the church and few members of the congregation sing, yet when standing before the congregation at the other Mass, the level of participation soars(again, referring to the Catechism "‘religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services’, in conformity with the Church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.”) It appears to me that I should be leading the congregation from the front of the church all the time (and again, my intent is not to “be seen” but to intelligently foster participation).

I have access to two organists in my parish - one prefers to play only on a very limited basis (usually as a fill in when I am away) due to arthritis and the other is a wonderful lady, not Catholic, who helps me out with weddings or funerals. She also is not interested in playing full-time as she is over 70 and travels frequently to visit her children and grandchildren. Due to the lack of available organists, should I just shut down the music ministry until someone else steps forward, when I am more than capable, both musically and liturgically of providing for my parishes’ needs? Again, don’t tell me that we should do without music

Also, please don’t think that my only interest is in contemporary Catholic music. I love doing choral pieces with my choir at Christmas and Easter when I can find an organist to play, or a pianist to play the digital piano that can sound like an organ. But, as the idea of music during Mass is to foster participation by the congregation, I prefer to do these pieces as prelude or postlude or in such a way that the congregation doesn’t feel left out.

To close, I would like to use a quote to answer another criticism about music appealing too much to the emotions -

“How I wept, deeply moved by your hymns, songs, and the voices that echoed through your Church! What emotion I experienced in them! Those sounds flowed into my ears, distilling the truth in my heart. A feeling of devotion surged within me, and tears streamed down my face - tears that did me good.”
St. Augustine

mjs
 
Thank you mjs. Perhaps we should start a thread sometime for musicians. We struggle along trying to follow Church teaching and placate all sides. It is a daunting task.
 
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GeorgeCooney:
JMJ

Reading through these posts leaves me very sad, but very thankful that I experienced the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for many years before the Novus Ordo and the overwhelming, associated changes in Church design, decor, and “bringing up to date.” There is no relationship evident in too many of the above posts to the Christocentric purpose of the Holy Sacrifice. The switch to homocentric themes and purposes is staggering.

While the Holy Sacrifice can have a Sacramental element beyond the Holy Eucharist; such as, an ordination, a wedding, a funeral, and other very solemn Church ceremonies, the sine qua non is the priest offering, with the laity assisting, the Infinite Sacrifice to God for our personal sins and the sins of all mankind. The priest and the individual assisting should remember during every moment in the Church that they are in the Real Presence of God. They are there to bend their knees and and to bow their heads in abject humility and submission to God, begging for His Mercy in full recognition, admission, sorrow, rejection, resolution, and amendment for their sins.

They are not there to see others and to be seen, not to display their talents and accomplishments, not to be entertained or amused. They are there to fall on their knees and beg for God’s forgiveness. They are not there to wonder how this parish and/or this priest does Mass. Prior to the *Novus Ordo *and the uncountable, associated changes, the Holy Sacrifice of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church was the same throughout the world. The Missal you carried gave you all of the words and rubrics translated into your native tongue; and they were followed strictly. You were completely at home in a French, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch village Church where not one other person spoke your language.

The music during Mass should contribute a mood in complete conformity to the purpose of the Mass, principly adoration and humble submission. Organ music had been determined to be the most effective and the least intrusive to this end. Foot tapping or being lost in a song is not proper to the purpose of the Mass. The organist and the choir are best hidden behind the laity to prevent distraction.

Clothing, especially headress, used to be a symbol of power, position, or wealth for men. In Church men removed their headress in humility. For women their hair was "their crowning glory. In Church women covered their hair. This remained a required custom and a public demonstartion of humility until those “associated” changes following “in the spirit” of the Novus Ordo.

I’ve said in other threads that this is not a nostalgia for times past as so many acuse us. It is a great sadness that the awe, the mystery, the adoration exhibited in Church and especially during Mass has been reduced monumentally. I recognize that some priests have maintained or re-instituted proper decorum and attitude within the limitations of the Novus Ordo, but these are exceptions, and in my experience rare exceptions, when compared to the researched and restored Mass required by Saint Pius V in his encyclical, *Quo Primum *(1570).

.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm

As a personal opinion, my opinion can be dismissed, but the statistics show clearly and emphatically that immediately after these changes, Mass attendence has dropped severely, the belief in the Real Presence has dropped from above 90% to below 20%, that many Catholics have left the Church, that holy vocations have almost disappeared in the diocese exhibiting the most “modern” adaptations, that Catholic schools at all levels openly teach heresy and blasphemy.

Of course, the Church and its functions were not perfect or without sin and apostacy prior to the Novus Ordo, but for those who have prolonged experience, both before and after, the difference is phenominal.

I pray for a Universal Indult. I **totally disagree **with those who say or hint that the *Novus Ordo *is illicit or that the Chair of Peter is vacant The Pope has the authority to establish a Mass which has only the Consecration and Communion to be offered in back yards on Sundays. Would that be wise, or the best human method to offer the Sacrifice? Would that better demonstrate in human terms our Offering to God in reparation for our sins. Again in my opinion, I think not. Likewise, I believe that the Novus Ordo has not produced any of the advertised advantages, but has resulted in many effects contrary to those advantages.

May God bless us all.
at what college can I learn to write posts like you and arrowood?
 
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Arrowood:
**A little Catholic Anthropology: **I am far from being a music expert, but I have some knowledge in Catholic anthropology and human nature that I apply to my opinions about liturgy and music. We are physical and emotional beings, and emotions are part of us as well as intellect and will.

The goal of many Protestant services tends to be to affect the emotions in the hopes of attracting people to Christ, and perhaps with the ultimate goal of lifting the will to God. The problem with this focus (which also seems to be the focus of some Catholic uses of music, etc) is that our fallen nature makes it more difficult to transition from our emotional experience to the spiritual connections of intellect and will. In other words, once our emotions are fired up, we tend to focus only on the emotional experience. I have seen this phenomenon occur in a lot of teen experiences - they get fired up emotionally and think Catholicism is the greatest thing in the world, but fail to make the transition into a real sense of faith. Once the emotional experience is forgotten, so is Christ. Also, the emotional high such experiences cause can become addicting, causing students to come back to such experiences for all the wrong reasons. I have even seen very unhealthy relationships form between teens wrapped up in an emotional sense of closeness and loving friendship not based on true intimacy and charity. On the other hand, I have also experienced skillful youth ministers able to help students make the transition from the initial emotional attraction to the movement of the intellect and will.

In contrast, the goal of the Mass (and most Catholic prayer) is to fill the intellect with truth and to raise the will to God. The assumption is that the emotions will follow the movement of the will, which ideally they should in a fully mature, self-disciplined person. However, people who are growing in their spiritual life may find traditional Catholic prayer “boring” because they have not yet learned to move their will toward God without help of the emotions. They are moved by a good homily or by a song that they like, rather than already being moved toward God in their hearts and then using the homily or the music to enhance and celebrate their relationship with Him.

**On liturgical music: **My problem with most liturgical music is that it seems so disjointed with what is happening in the Mass. I believe that the music should give us emotional *and *intellectual cues for how we should be directing our hearts during various parts of the Mass. For example, the offertory hymn is so often the place in the Mass where musicians insert their favorite hymns or where choirs do their showcase pieces. However, I think the offertory music should be chosen to lead us to make an offering of our lives to the Father as we prepare to participate in Christ’s offering to Him.

Secondly, good music should help us to bridge the gap between our emotions and our will. Traditional Catholic liturgy did this by appealing to our sense of beauty - which is something that I would like to see a return to. However, much of the contemporary praise and worship music may also be able to do this. The balance is not to let the praise and worship music take over. I’ve been to teen events where teenagers would shout out requests for their favorite music **during a **Mass. The focus on Christ was lost to the emotional high. I think the same danger exists with adults in much less obvious ways. Music should be carefully and artfully chosen to draw us into the Mass, not into the music for the music’s own sake. To me, this issue is much more important than the style of music used.

On the Charismatic movement: I don’t think there is any question that charisms are given by the Holy Spirit. A greater acknowledgement of these charisms could do a lot to increase the fervor of the faith within the Church. However, most of these charisms are not extraordinary - like healing, prophecy, or tongues. Most of them are quiet builders of faith - like the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, a calling into deeper prayer, the gift of leadership, the gift of teaching, or the gift of hospitality. These more “mundane” gifts should not be overlooked. They are in many ways more faith-building than the extraordinary gifts. The warnings of Paul about the abuse of charisms are extremely applicable today. I wonder if the Charismatic movement sometimes falls into the trap of focusing too much on these gifts, as Paul warned us not to. Charismatic gifts are intended for the building up of the Church. Like liturgical music, they should not draw us to themselves, but they should draw us to Christ and His Church.

I hope these thoughts are still useful!
yeah your right… I knew it musta been an accident that my will for God was strengthened at that baptist church…
 
hi does Jesus love my worship as much as the people at the organ only mass? :confused:
 
mjs said:
“How I wept, deeply moved by your hymns, songs, and the voices that echoed through your Church! What emotion I experienced in them! Those sounds flowed into my ears, distilling the truth in my heart. A feeling of devotion surged within me, and tears streamed down my face - tears that did me good.” St. Augustinemjs

Dear mjs, I understand your thoughts and concerns, not having a musical bone in my body it is truly generous that you wish to give your talents to God, if I could I would do the same. However you will not find the rules regarding Church music in a Catechism. It would be part of the rules of the Church and although I have none of this at my fingertips to give exact quotes, there are definite rules regarding music in the Church, right down to the tempo that is allowed. Unfortunately these little “minor” rules have been disregarded for popular opinion on this and many other subjects.

You gave a very nice quote from St. Augustine, Bishop and Doctor of The Church, who considering was born in the year 354 I am sure that guitar music was not the music he was referring too. And he was absolutely right Sacred Music can and does move people to tears, I have experienced it myself but on the other hand guitar music does not! Because St. Augustine is a Doctor of The Church you will probably find he has written alot regarding Sacred Music, I have his teachings at home I will look it up and get back to you. Of course you should do the same.

When you sing to God you are praying twice!

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Mandi
 
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mjs:
Just a couple of questions/thoughts as I continue to follow this thread.

First, could someone please point me to exactly where in the Catechism that it states every church should have an organ. While this may true, I have been unable to find reference to it. Also, if there is no organist, is there to be no music? Referring to the Catechism (I actually do own a copy) music “forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy.” So please don’t tell me that Sunday Mass should be celebrated without music.

mjs
Actually, it’s not in the Catechism, and I wouldn’t expect it to be since the purpose of the Catechism is not to lay out specific norms for liturgical practice. However, it is in the document of the Second Vatican Council, “Sacrosanctum Concilium” in article 120. I quoted the entire article below so you can see the point of this whole debate is actually found in this document:
In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
Code:
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Greetings all, I’m interested in this discussion as an outsider. I belong to an Eastern Catholic parish and we don’t have these issues where I worship. The liturgy does not reflect contemporary trends in music or innovative practices.

One thing I have noticed is that the Western church has emphasized the daily Divine Liturgy and does not commonly have what I would call Divine Praises. My church will pray the Divine Praises (liturgy of the Hours) publicly at church (mainly Matins and Vespers), we will normally have only one Divine Liturgy on a Sunday, and on some weekdays there is no Divine Liturgy. Divine Praises are really just a prayer meeting, it is very uplifting, there is a specific structure to it but it is not as critical as a Eucharistic liturgy.

I think that if the western church would reintroduce the Divine Praises it would be an excellent vehicle for the some of the more innovative and spontaneous prayers, musical variety and Spirit filled emotion. There is no need to have all of that surround the Holy Sacrifice if it causes contention within the congregation, plus it would sanctify time in other ways during the week.

As an example of that, at one time I attended an evening Taize’ prayer at a local RC church, it could have been the equivalent of a vespers service. It was marvelous! I would like to try that again sometime, although it isn’t part of my tradition.

I wonder what anyone thinks about that idea.
 
I totally agree! Many people do pray the Liturgy of the Hours privately, but it is not often offered in our parish churches. That would be a great tradition to reinstate.

I also agree that we tend to forget that there are many other prayer experiences that feed into and spring from the Mass. Many of these prayer options are not liturgical and are not bound by liturgical norms. I get together with a group of friends and sing praise and worship music (ok, they sing - I croak :D). This beautiful form of prayer feeds my devotion when I go to Mass. I don’t necessarily need praise and worship music at Mass to feed my devotion. Instead I can be drawn more deeply into the Divine Liturgy through my intellect and will because they have been primed through my more emotional prayer experience outside of Mass.
 
Thank you Arrowood for this quote from the Vatican II source,In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

Although this is the first time I have seen the Vatican II document, it is easy to see that it is extremely vague compared to those in the past. Which leaves it wide open for those to interpert anyway they please. I guess what needs a more specific definition here is what exactly is “sacred”
 
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