Happy Reformation Day to my seperated brothers and sisters!

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2nd_Adam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I absolutely agree. I will observe it, but not celebrate it. The Reformation remains unfinished until we have, through the Holy Spirit, reconciliation.

Jon
Jon,

Your signature quote is the best!

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther

Martin Luther is just agreeing with Pope Benedict’s version of faith alone with the if attached to it.
 
But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine
I stopped reading there. It smacks of self-righteousness and pride.
 
I stopped reading there. It smacks of self-righteousness and pride.
The source is good. He is a full Catholic brother, and much more than a seperated brethern.

“Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building” Peter Kreeft on Justification by Faith

catholiceducation.org/art…cs/ap0027.html

THE AUTHOR

Peter Kreeft has written extensively (over 25 books) in the areas of Christian apologetics. Link to all of Peter Kreeft’s books here.

Peter Kreeft teaches at Boston College in Boston Massachusetts. He is on the Advisory Board of the Catholic Educator’s Resource Center.

Copyright © 1988 Ignatius Press
 
I absolutely agree. I will observe it, but not celebrate it. The Reformation remains unfinished until we have, through the Holy Spirit, reconciliation.

Jon
Jon, will you observe it along with me by enjoying a bottle of St. Pauli’s Girl? Or, I suppose, whatever German beer you prefer.

God bless
 
Jon,

Your signature quote is the best!

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Luther

Martin Luther is just agreeing with Pope Benedict’s version of faith alone with the if attached to it.
So now that we all agree, those Protestants are ready to come back to the Reformed Catholic Church? That’s the day I will celebrate.
 
So now that we all agree, those Protestants are ready to come back to the Reformed Catholic Church? That’s the day I will celebrate.
I will when the priest who offers me communion is married…and pregnant.
 
I will when the priest who offers me communion is married…and pregnant.
:hypno:

Well that ain’t happening. I mean the Church could change its stance on the celibacy issue (not saying it would) but I am sorry there is just no way the Church could make men give birth to children. Not even the Church has that kind of power 😃

God bless
 
:hypno:

Well that ain’t happening. I mean the Church could change its stance on the celibacy issue (not saying it would) but I am sorry there is just no way the Church could make men give birth to children. Not even the Church has that kind of power 😃

God bless
😃

I lol’ed. Yeah women’s ordination has been a tricky one for inter-lutheran relations. We get… frustrated… with the ELCA quite a bit… in Christian love of course…
 
Jon, will you observe it along with me by enjoying a bottle of St. Pauli’s Girl? Or, I suppose, whatever German beer you prefer.

God bless
Sure! Becks! 🙂
I will celebrate the Reformation, though, when you and I can share the His body and blood at your parish’s altar or mine on All Saints Day. That would be cause for celebration.

Jon
 
So now that we all agree, those Protestants are ready to come back to the Reformed Catholic Church?
Maybe so. Let’s see.
Can the CC accept the Augsburg Confession a truly Catholic statement and confession of faith?

If so, then reconciliation can happen.

Jon
 
Why are we celebrating this? The Protestant Revolt was one of the most tragic events in the entire course of human history. By it heresy was spread throughout all of Christendom and millions of souls were lost. I see no cause for toasting its memory.

Also, what’s all this about justification through faith alone being a Catholic doctrine?
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once: faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.” This faith, Catechumens beg of the Church, agreeably to a tradition of the apostles, previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
– Council of Trent, Session Six, Chapter VII

I hardly think Peter Kreeft trumps an ecumenical council, however intelligent a man he may be.
 
Why are we celebrating this? The Protestant Revolt was one of the most tragic events in the entire course of human history. By it heresy was spread throughout all of Christendom and millions of souls were lost. I see no cause for toasting its memory.

Also, what’s all this about justification through faith alone being a Catholic doctrine?

– Council of Trent, Session Six, Chapter VII

I hardly think Peter Kreeft trumps an ecumenical council, however intelligent a man he may be.
There are way too many voices coming from the Catholic Church. If you Catholic Christians were honest, the Catholic Church is just as divided on issues as Protestant churches. The Pope has spoken (see signature)! BTW… I find Catholic Answers to be in the mold of Peter Kreeft… you know those ex-Protestant converts and their Reformed ideas coming into the Catholic Church. The Council of Trent has been quite modifed to be politically correct in the 20 century too (Joint Declaration, and not applicalble to modern day Protestants).
 
Why are we celebrating this? The Protestant Revolt was one of the most tragic events in the entire course of human history. By it heresy was spread throughout all of Christendom and millions of souls were lost. I see no cause for toasting its memory.
Also, what’s all this about justification through faith alone being a Catholic doctrine?
Indeed, the abuses within the medieval Church, and the sinful way both sides responded to them, is one of the most tragic events in the history of Christianity. I’m not sure how you know that millions of souls were lost, however.

Jon
 
2nd Adam:
There are way too many voices coming from the Catholic Church. If you Catholic Christians were honest, the Catholic Church is just as divided on issues as Protestant churches. The Pope has spoken (see signature)! BTW… I find Catholic Answers to be in the mold of Peter Kreeft… you know those ex-Protestant converts and their Reformed ideas coming into the Catholic Church. The Council of Trent has been quite modifed to be politically correct in the 20 century too (Joint Declaration, and not applicalble to modern day Protestants).
I agree that there are too many voices coming from our wing. At least those who are confused have the Catechism as a guide for what they are required to believe.

Incidentally, the bolded part of your post is an example of what Catholics call modernism. The Council of Trent will always be applicable to everyone; its definitions, being true, cannot change with the times, and all Catholics are supposed to submit to its teachings, no matter what age they live in.
JohnNC:
Indeed, the abuses within the medieval Church, and the sinful way both sides responded to them, is one of the most tragic events in the history of Christianity. I’m not sure how you know that millions of souls were lost, however.

Jon
The abuses within the medieval Church are not half as bad as public opinion would have everyone believe. As a matter of fact, I think they are quite insignificant in comparison to present-day abuses. But the fact is, schism and heresy were not the best ways to deal with them.

Yes, you’re quite right that I don’t know how many souls were lost. Excuse me for making that assumption. The loss of souls is an objective result of the errors spread by the Revolt, but no one will know how many for a while yet, very much including me.
 
=Rites;5774701]
The abuses within the medieval Church are not half as bad as public opinion would have everyone believe. As a matter of fact, I think they are quite insignificant in comparison to present-day abuses. But the fact is, schism and heresy were not the best ways to deal with them.
When as a kid I would fight with my brother and try to blame him, my dad would always say “it takes two to tango”. So it is with schism. The issue us today is, how long with our respective communions perpetuate this sin of schism.
As a matter of fact, I think they are quite insignificant in comparison to present-day abuses.
So, which abuses in the Catholic Church today do you view as more significant than those of 16th century Germany?
Yes, you’re quite right that I don’t know how many souls were lost. Excuse me for making that assumption. The loss of souls is an objective result of the errors spread by the Revolt, but no one will know how many for a while yet, very much including me.
The issue is greater than placing a number on how many souls. I would contend the issue is what you call an “objective result”. And from my perspective, in many ways the Reformation brought to light the errors being spread at that time, responded to at least in part by Trent. But I refuse to assume that even those errors/ abuses should or would necessarily and objectively result in lost souls. I leave that to the Grace of God, and not my assumptions.

Jon
 
40.png
JonNC:
When as a kid I would fight with my brother and try to blame him, my dad would always say “it takes two to tango”. So it is with schism. The issue us today is, how long with our respective communions perpetuate this sin of schism.
Perhaps. But the sin of schism is only applicable to those who are actually in schism from the true church.
So, which abuses in the Catholic Church today do you view as more significant than those of 16th century Germany?
The sex scandal is pretty high up there, as are the rampant liturgical abuses, the dissent in the religious orders, the suppression of the Latin Mass, the disturbing lack of discipline among the hierarchy, and the destruction of beautiful churches in the name of simplicity, just to name a few.
The issue is greater than placing a number on how many souls. I would contend the issue is what you call an “objective result”. And from my perspective, in many ways the Reformation brought to light the errors being spread at that time, responded to at least in part by Trent. But I refuse to assume that even those errors/ abuses should or would necessarily and objectively result in lost souls. I leave that to the Grace of God, and not my assumptions.
Interesting how history works, isn’t it? The greatest disturbances bring about the greatest reforms. And you are correct that we must ultimately leave everything to the grace of God, but one must ask: If heresy does not cause souls to be lost, what does?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top