Harms of Homosexuality.

[Mystophilus]

cheddarsox:

You can look in history at how it has affected societies in which it was condoned, and in societies in which it has not been condoned.

Perhaps, but how do we go about isolating homosexuality as a factor?

If we consider classical Sparta and Athens, homosexuality was a capital crime in the former and a societal norm in the latter. Is this the reason for Sparta (narrowly) winning the Pelopennesian War, or for the flourishing of philosophy, science and art in Athens? How could we possibly know?

 

[Mystophilus]

cheddarsox:

If it became culturally acceptable, than many of the people who suffer severe mental anguish over their urges might not suffer them… I would hope it would help homosexual couples, especially men, to turn away from the disturbing practice of many casual couplings that some are involved in and seek a more stable lifestyle, but I have no way of knowing if it would.

There would be less pressure on them and it would be easier for homosexuals to stay together longer, thus reducing the number of sexual partners, which is the greatest issue for the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases.

AIDS is more easily spread through certain sexual practices. I would guess that most homosexuals who would be sexually active, already are, so I don’t think that we would suddenly see a huge increase in the amount of sex or disease taking place. the only difference would be the legal legitimacy of what they are already doing.

Which would also make it easier for them to seek medical advice, which would help with the health issues.

Is the objection to homosexual sex/marriage based solely on religious beliefs?

I don’t think so. I think there is a general cultural objection as well that is not always related to religion.

The People’s Republic of China vehemently denies that homosexuality even exists there (which suggests that the Central Party Committee have never been to the bars in Beijing or Shanghai). China is still largely atheistic.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Mystophilus

The People’s Republic of China vehemently denies that homosexuality even exists there (which suggests that the Central Party Committee have never been to the bars in Beijing or Shanghai). China is still largely atheistic.

Ah yes, atheists are experts in denial?

 

[mlchance]

Mystophilus:

If we consider classical Sparta and Athens, homosexuality was a capital crime in the former and a societal norm in the latter.

No, it wasn’t. The opposite is closer to the truth, but even then falls short. The best and brightest of Athens (i.e., Plato and Aristotle) condemned homosexuality as a crime against nature.

Mystophilus:

Is this the reason for Sparta (narrowly) winning the Pelopennesian War, or for the flourishing of philosophy, science and art in Athens? How could we possibly know?

By actually studying history. Homosexuality’s impact on all of the above doesn’t even register.

It is also quite thoroughly irrelevant to the question at hand. No one who honestly examines the medical and psychological data about homosexuality can conclude that it is a healthy “lifestyle choice.” Homosexual persons exhibit rates of disease, mental illness, suicide, drug abuse, domestic violence, sexual promiscuity, and sexual victimization of minors that are all much higher than the rates of the same among the heterosexual population.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Valz]

mlchance:

No, it wasn’t. The opposite is closer to the truth, but even then falls short. The best and brightest of Athens (i.e., Plato and Aristotle) condemned homosexuality as a crime against nature.

Nice. Do you have a quote by each to share? I got a compilation of their works, but it is quite big to look for the quotes

Valz

 

[Mystophilus]

mlchance:

No, it wasn’t. The opposite is closer to the truth, but even then falls short. The best and brightest of Athens (i.e., Plato and Aristotle) condemned homosexuality as a crime against nature.

I am sorry, but the data do not agree with you.

For Plato, note particularly the difference between his attitude towards homosexuality in the Symposium and the Phraedrus, wherein he accepts it and even validates it when the attraction is psychological rather than physical, and his attitude in the Laws, wherein he describes it as “unnatural”. No doubt part of his trouble in condemning homosexuality lay in the fact that his beloved Socrates was a lover of boys.

Homosexuality’s impact on all of the above doesn’t even register.

My point exactly: the factor is not separable, which renders its effect indeterminable.

No one who honestly examines the medical and psychological data about homosexuality can conclude that it is a healthy “lifestyle choice.” Homosexual persons exhibit rates of disease, mental illness, suicide, drug abuse, domestic violence, sexual promiscuity, and sexual victimization of minors that are all much higher than the rates of the same among the heterosexual population.

First of all, homosexuality is an orientation, not a lifestyle choice. I have yet to meet anyone who woke up and thought, “Hmm, I think I’ll be gay today.”

Nevertheless, yours is an interesting assertion, especially because it is prefaced with by the comment “No one who honestly examines…”

Honestly examining the situation, we cannot honestly afford to ignore the repeatedly-demonstrated contributory effect of marginalisation, which has a distinct correlation with mental illness (and thus suicide), drug abuse, crime and promiscuity (whence sexual disease). While homosexuals are marginalised, it is impossible to remove that factor from the process and thus impossible to honestly conclude whether it is marginalisation or homosexuality (or something else) which is the determining factor. Nevertheless, continued marginalisation of homosexuals is what many conservatives seek and, as long as they succeed, many homosexuals will live an underground lifestyle fraught with problems of all kinds.

 

[Mystophilus]

“The People’s Republic of China vehemently denies that homosexuality even exists there (which suggests that the Central Party Committee have never been to the bars in Beijing or Shanghai). China is still largely atheistic.”

Ah yes, atheists are experts in denial?

I thought that was the Buddhists: “Nothing except the Buddha-mind is real.”

Still, to be fair, the Chinese government are experts in denial. They still assert that they are socialist when they are more capitalist than practically anyone on earth.

Try this:
Country A has high taxes, free education until the late teenage years, free or subsidised healthcare and medicine, numerous regulatory agencies, low pollution, and free access to parks.

Country B has very low taxes, no free education except for a few primary-level schools in the most remote areas, no free healthcare, no free medicine, few regulatory agencies (and almost none which actually regulate anything outside of Beijing or Shanghai), unbelievably high pollution, and people have to pay the purchasing-equivalent of $US 15 to get into a park.

Country A covers most Western nations. Country B is the People’s Republic of China.

 

[cheddarsox]

Mystophilus:

Perhaps, but how do we go about isolating homosexuality as a factor?

I don’t know that it is ever possible to isolate a factor in something as comples as culture

If we consider classical Sparta and Athens, homosexuality was a capital crime in the former and a societal norm in the latter. Is this the reason for Sparta (narrowly) winning the Pelopennesian War, or for the flourishing of philosophy, science and art in Athens? How could we possibly know?

**I hear ya.

cheddar**

 

[cheddarsox]

mlchance:

It is also quite thoroughly irrelevant to the question at hand. No one who honestly examines the medical and psychological data about homosexuality can conclude that it is a healthy “lifestyle choice.” Homosexual persons exhibit rates of disease, mental illness, suicide, drug abuse, domestic violence, sexual promiscuity, and sexual victimization of minors that are all much higher than the rates of the same among the heterosexual population.

– Mark L. Chance.

**
The things you mention could be the result of the tremendous cultural pressure placed on homosexuals due to this basic part of their nature being villified, illegal, etc.

as to it being a choice, Mystophilus has already addressed that.

cheddar**

 

[mlchance]

cheddarsox:

The things you mention could be the result of the tremendous cultural pressure placed on homosexuals due to this basic part of their nature being villified, illegal, etc.

No, they aren’t. They hold true even in places where homosexual persons enjoy widespread tolerance and the approval of popular culture.

cheddarsox:

as to it being a choice, Mystophilus has already addressed that.

No, it wasn’t addressed. It was merely dismissed. One makes a choice to engage in homosexual behavior and to self-identify with the homosexual subculture. The results of that choice have an overwhelming tendency to be destructive to physical, moral, and spiritual health.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[cheddarsox]

No, they aren’t. They hold true even in places where homosexual persons enjoy widespread tolerance and the approval of popular culture.

**Where is this? **

No, it wasn’t addressed. It was merely dismissed. One makes a choice to engage in homosexual behavior and to self-identify with the homosexual subculture. The results of that choice have an overwhelming tendency to be destructive to physical, moral, and spiritual health.

**Yes, one makes the choice to engage in behavior,but that is not the same as making a choice to “be” homosexual, to have same gender attraction. And in the culture I live in there have not been any acceptable ways for them to express their sexuality, so the “underground” lifestyle has been a place where they end up. Not all but an unfortunately large percentage who don’t know any other way to deal with their situation.

That being said. Most of the homosexuals I know have nothing to do with the militant or seedy lifestyle that is popularized as the “gay” lifestyle. Most of the homosexuals I know live in relationships that mirror heterosexual monagamous relationships. They own homes, go to work, church etc, don’t spend their time cruising bars and rest stops.

There will always be the “subculture” of sexual abberration among straights and gays, no doubt. Some people are simply attracted to that lifestyle. But in my life, I have definitely not seen proof that the majority of homosexuals choose that lifestyle, rather the opposite has been true, but since I don’t hang around with that sort of either ilk, I have no statistics to back it up.

The more sensational story always gets the press. It doesn’t stir up much attention to print newpaper articles about homosexual couples who are acting the same as all their neighbors.

cheddar
**

 

[fix]

Mystophilus:

I
First of all, homosexuality is an orientation, not a lifestyle choice. I have yet to meet anyone who woke up and thought, “Hmm, I think I’ll be gay today.”

Really? Fact or your opinion? There are plenty of people who choose to be “gay”. There are any number of reasons people may want to act out in a particular way.

 

[fix]

cheddarsox:

N

**Yes, one makes the choice to engage in behavior,but that is not the same as making a choice to “be” homosexual, to have same gender attraction. And in the culture I live in there have not been any acceptable ways for them to express their sexuality, so the “underground” lifestyle has been a place where they end up. Not all but an unfortunately large percentage who don’t know any other way to deal with their situation.

That being said. Most of the homosexuals I know have nothing to do with the militant or seedy lifestyle that is popularized as the “gay” lifestyle. Most of the homosexuals I know live in relationships that mirror heterosexual monagamous relationships. They own homes, go to work, church etc, don’t spend their time cruising bars and rest stops.

There will always be the “subculture” of sexual abberration among straights and gays, no doubt. Some people are simply attracted to that lifestyle. But in my life, I have definitely not seen proof that the majority of homosexuals choose that lifestyle, rather the opposite has been true, but since I don’t hang around with that sort of either ilk, I have no statistics to back it up.

The more sensational story always gets the press. It doesn’t stir up much attention to print newpaper articles about homosexual couples who are acting the same as all their neighbors.

cheddar
**

There are men who choose to take multiple wives. They do not break any laws, other than polygamy, they are polite and go to Church. Does that justify their behavior?

 

[cheddarsox]

fix:

There are men who choose to take multiple wives. They do not break any laws, other than polygamy, they are polite and go to Church. Does that justify their behavior?

This thread is about the harms of homosexuality. Not the morality, but only as it pertains to society. That is the discussion requested by the OP.

If you want to discuss the justification or morality of homosexual activity, you will have to start another thread. It is another topic.

cheddar

 

[felra]

cheddarsox:

This thread is about the harms of homosexuality. Not the morality, but only as it pertains to society. That is the discussion requested by the OP.

If you want to discuss the justification or morality of homosexual activity, you will have to start another thread. It is another topic.

cheddar

Just how do you propose to discuss the harms of homosexuality to the practicing homosexual without discussing the harms done to his/her eternal soul? We are enfleshed souls after all. The effect of choosing to engage in a deviant behavior is that it impacts the whole of the person (and society), as we are created as moral beings.

 

[salival]

felra:

Just how do you propose to discuss the harms of homosexuality to the practicing homosexual without discussing the harms done to his/her eternal soul?

We need secular arguments against homosexuality and actual damage that the practice would do both to individuals and to society if it is legalized and it is seen as moral and normal.

That is what I am really looking for in this thread.

sal

 

[Mystophilus]

fix:

Really? Fact or your opinion?

Experience, as stated.

Why? How many people do you know who woke up and thought, “Hmm, I think I’ll be gay today”?

 

[cheddarsox]

felra:

Just how do you propose to discuss the harms of homosexuality to the practicing homosexual without discussing the harms done to his/her eternal soul? We are enfleshed souls after all. The effect of choosing to engage in a deviant behavior is that it impacts the whole of the person (and society), as we are created as moral beings.

I didn’t propose anything. I did not start this thread. If you feel this thread isn’t valid, then you can choose not to participate, and start a thread dealing with what you feel are pertinent issues.

cheddar

 

[felra]

salival:

We need secular arguments against homosexuality and actual damage that the practice would do both to individuals and to society if it is legalized and it is seen as moral and normal.

That is what I am really looking for in this thread.

sal

As requested:

http://www.catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=10416
In HOMOSEXUALITY AND HOPE: STATEMENT OF THE CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, SAME-SEX ATTRACTION AS A SYMPTOM notes,

Individuals experience same-sex attractions for different reasons. While there are similarities in the patterns of development, each individual has a unique, personal history. In the histories of persons who experience same-sex attraction, one frequently finds one or more of the following:

· Alienation from the father in early childhood because the father was perceived as hostile or distant, violent or alcoholic (Apperson 1968[17]; Bene 1965[18]; Bieber 1962[19]; Fisher 1996[20]; Pillard 1988[21]; Sipova 1983[22])

· Mother was overprotective (boys) (Bieber, T. 1971[23]; Bieber 1962[24]; Snortum 1969[25])

· Mother was needy and demanding (boys) (Fitzgibbons 1999[26])

· Mother emotionally unavailable (girls) (Bradley 1997[27]; Eisenbud 1982[28])

· Parents failed to encourage same-sex identification (Zucker 1995[29])

· Lack of rough and tumble play (boys) (Friedman 1980[30]; Hadden 1967a [31])

· Failure to identify with same/sex peers (Hockenberry 1987[32]; Whitman 1977[33])

· Dislike of team sports (boys) (Thompson 1973[34])

· Lack of hand/eye coordination and resultant teasing by peers (boys) (Bailey 1993[35]; Fitzgibbons 1999[36]; Newman 1976[37])

· Sexual abuse or rape (Beitchman 1991[38]; Bradley 1997[39]; Engel 1981[40]; Finkelhor 1984; Gundlach 1967[41])

· Social phobia or extreme shyness (Golwyn 1993[42])

· Parental loss through death or divorce (Zucker 1995)

· Separation from parent during critical developmental stages (Zucker 1995)

In some cases, same-sex attraction or activity occurs in a patient with other psychological diagnosis, such as:

· major depression (Fergusson 1999[43])

· suicidal ideation (Herrell 1999)

· generalized anxiety disorder

· substance abuse

· conduct disorder in adolescents

· borderline personality disorder (Parris 1993[44]; Zubenko 1987[45])

· schizophrenia (Gonsiorek 1982) [46]

· pathological narcissism (Bychowski 1954[47]; Kaplan 1967[48])

In a few cases, homosexual behavior appears later in life as a response to a trauma such as abortion, (Berger 1994[49]; de Beauvoir 1953) or profound loneliness (Fitzgibbons 1999).

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems

By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.
(Author of “My Genes Made Me Do It”)

Summary:* Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse. This paper highlights some new and significant considerations that reflect on the question of those mental illnesses and on their possible sources.*

http://www.narth.com/menus/medical.html – homosexual medical issues articles

 

[felra]

(continued):

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html

• Physical Health

Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs. In addition to diseases that may be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV.

• Mental Health

It is well established that there are high rates of psychiatric illnesses, including depression, drug abuse, and suicide attempts, among gays and lesbians. This is true even in the Netherlands, where gay, lesbian and bisexual (GLB) relationships are far more socially acceptable than in the U.S. Depression and drug abuse are strongly associated with risky sexual practices that lead to serious medical problems.

• Life Span

The only epidemiological study to date on the life span of gay men concluded that gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy.

• Monogamy

Monogamy, meaning long-term sexual fidelity, is rare in GLB relationships, particularly among gay men. One study reported that 66 percent of gay couples reported sex outside the relationship within the first year, and nearly 90 percent if the relationship lasted five years.

Encouraging people to engage in risky sexual behavior undermines good health and can result in a shortened life span. Yet that is exactly what employers and governmental entities are doing when they grant GLB couples benefits or status that make GLB relationships appear more socially acceptable.