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Verita
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So, is it captialism that is evil or just best selling merchandise? Oops! That includes the Bible!
And you said you weren’t going to post anymore.
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And you said you weren’t going to post anymore.
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Tom317
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I ran across that article and thought it applied to this topic, the fact that the world does not take evil and the devil seriously anymore.So, is it captialism that is evil or just best selling merchandise? Oops! That includes the Bible!
And you said you weren’t going to post anymore.
You do not like my views, so why bother answering them?
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Verita
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I apologize. I was just having some fun at your expense. The way you worded your post made it seem that those things were evil because they sold so well.
You are right that much of the world doesn’t take evil very seriously. The ironic part though is that literature has always been one way through which children have been taught about the difference between good and evil. Fairy tales being an example. Many of them are really very dark and full of strong examples of evil. Harry Potter is the same. It gives kids (and adults) a very clear idea of what is right and what is wrong and WHY those things are right and wrong. The important thing is that evil, in the end, looses to good. And that is definetly what will happen.
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Tom317
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I agree, in the end evil loses, yet that does not mean an awful lot of damage will not happen because of that evil. People can do whatever they want with HP, and balanced Catholics are not likely to be harmed by tales like that. However, the devil and his demons are as real as the air we breath and they are NOT our friends–they are out to destroy us and they are just smart enough to know that a soul can be lead astray if it is tempted one little so-called harmless step at a time. When an exorcist from the Vatican condemns HP, that is good enough for me because those people deal with the realities of evil, the devil and the devils demons all the time…they know far more than we do about the subject.I apologize. I was just having some fun at your expense. The way you worded your post made it seem that those things were evil because they sold so well.
You are right that much of the world doesn’t take evil very seriously. The ironic part though is that literature has always been one way through which children have been taught about the difference between good and evil. Fairy tales being an example. Many of them are really very dark and full of strong examples of evil. Harry Potter is the same. It gives kids (and adults) a very clear idea of what is right and what is wrong and WHY those things are right and wrong. The important thing is that evil, in the end, looses to good. And that is definetly what will happen.
Ultimately, with all the options for entertainment available today, I just cannot see a reason to read those books or watch the movies. If there is even the slightest remote chance that they can pollute a child’s brain, then why risk it?
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sasafr
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Just a quick point, in life it is not always clear who is good and who is bad. Politicians who seem to be good turn out to be corrupt. People who are upstanding citizens can be the ones who at home are abusing their spouse of their children. IMP Harry Potter is suppose to seem more real, that is part of the reason why so many children enjoy reading the stories. Furthermore, all of the truely evil characters have the Dark Mark, Voldermort’s symbol. It is a way to identify them. Part of the reason why I liked the Harry Potter books were that the good and evil lines were not as cut and dry as most other fantasy novels. With every action people choose to do good or to be evil, and the books show that point well.
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Elzee
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I haven’t read the books or seen the movies but I’ll pass on an observation from a friend of mine. She lets her kids (ages 7-12) see the movies but not read the books. Apparently the books go into a lot more detail on spells, wtichcraft, etc. and she thinks the movies are more obviously fantasy and not as compelling or intriguing.
Maybe someone who has read the books and seen the movies can comment from this perspective.
Maybe someone who has read the books and seen the movies can comment from this perspective.
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Tom317
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Granted, in real life good and evil are often confused. However, fiction is supposed to an escape from real life. Kids should be reading things that are quite clearly good versus evil, not a lukewarm mess that can leave a young person wondering if casting spells is goood or bad. I have no problem with fantasy if done correctly. Yet, the HP books imo, and in the opinion of well known exorcists, can lead to a watering-down of the sensitivity children should learn about evil. We want kids to have a very clear and undeniable knowledge of good and evil even if in real life things do not seem so clear at times. Only then will our culture have any chance.
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Tom317
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Ultimately, didn’t satan water down evil when he seduced Eve into eating the forbidden fruit? Didn’t he appeal to human common sense when he said to the woman, “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
We can change that to a specific HP statement:
But the serpent said to the woman, "Your son will not die. For God knows that when your son watches movies like Harry Potter your son’s eyes will be opened, and he will be like God, knowing good and evil so that when he grows-up he can recognize it. It is just a piece of fiction and can do no harm and God knows that too, so send your son to see the movie, buy him the books, teach him to cast fictional spells, teach him to where Harry Potter costumes and to carry toy magic wands, because he shall not be harmed by fiction.
We can change that to a specific HP statement:
But the serpent said to the woman, "Your son will not die. For God knows that when your son watches movies like Harry Potter your son’s eyes will be opened, and he will be like God, knowing good and evil so that when he grows-up he can recognize it. It is just a piece of fiction and can do no harm and God knows that too, so send your son to see the movie, buy him the books, teach him to cast fictional spells, teach him to where Harry Potter costumes and to carry toy magic wands, because he shall not be harmed by fiction.
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Tom317
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Here is a better version:
*But the serpent said to the woman, "Your son will not die. For God knows that when your son watches movies like Harry Potter your son’s eyes will be opened, and he will be like God, knowing good and evil so that when he grows-up he can recognize it. It is just a piece of fiction and can do no harm and God knows that too, so send your son to see the movie, buy him the books, teach him to cast fictional spells, teach him to wear Harry Potter costumes and to carry toy magic wands, because he shall not be harmed by fiction.
Then the serpent pauses, smiles and says: "Trust me, would I lie to you? I love your son and would never want any harm to come to him.*
*But the serpent said to the woman, "Your son will not die. For God knows that when your son watches movies like Harry Potter your son’s eyes will be opened, and he will be like God, knowing good and evil so that when he grows-up he can recognize it. It is just a piece of fiction and can do no harm and God knows that too, so send your son to see the movie, buy him the books, teach him to cast fictional spells, teach him to wear Harry Potter costumes and to carry toy magic wands, because he shall not be harmed by fiction.
Then the serpent pauses, smiles and says: "Trust me, would I lie to you? I love your son and would never want any harm to come to him.*
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Verita
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Tom, the truth is that Satan can do that with anything, even something good. There would be no difference between your shild reading Harry Potter and becoming interested in witchcraft and your child reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and becoming interested in witchcraft. It could happen with either, though I doubt you deny your children Narnia. The only way to avoid things that might influence your children to evil would be to completely cut them off from all forms of entertainment and to take them out of school and most likely keep them in a big plastic bubble.
Frankly, I think people underestimate children. They’re alot smarter than many adults think.
Frankly, I think people underestimate children. They’re alot smarter than many adults think.
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Tom317
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The question is not “can it happen elsewhere?” Of course satan can work on people in other areas, he does so literally all the time. The question is: “Is your child worth even a remote risk for the sake of entertainment?”
Every person, young and old, has daily challenges and are tried by evil far more often then they likely know. My view is simply: why would we want to potentially intensify that trial?"
People who deal with demons and try to drive them out of people will tell you that they are real and that HP is a possible doorway for such things, and yes there are plenty of other things that are dangerous.
Narnia is not even close to a good example because the good is very well defined, evil is well defined and the kids are taught to help rid the world of the evil by using good. HP confuses the two by HP using evil powers to attempt to bring a good out of it. As I said, there is nothing wrong with fantasy, yet it must be done correctly and HP is not.
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Tom317
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Vatican’s Chief Exorcist Repeats Condemnation of Harry Potter Novels
By John-Henry Westen
ROME, March 1, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Vatican’s chief exorcist, Rev. Gabriele Amorth, is reported to have repeated his condemnations of the Harry Potter novels yesterday. According to press reports, Fr. Amorth, said of the books, “You start off with Harry Potter, who comes across as a likeable wizard, but you end up with the Devil. There is no doubt that the signature of the Prince of Darkness is clearly within these books.”
“By reading Harry Potter a young child will be drawn into magic and from there it is a simple step to Satanism and the Devil,” he said.
lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06030104.html
By John-Henry Westen
ROME, March 1, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Vatican’s chief exorcist, Rev. Gabriele Amorth, is reported to have repeated his condemnations of the Harry Potter novels yesterday. According to press reports, Fr. Amorth, said of the books, “You start off with Harry Potter, who comes across as a likeable wizard, but you end up with the Devil. There is no doubt that the signature of the Prince of Darkness is clearly within these books.”
“By reading Harry Potter a young child will be drawn into magic and from there it is a simple step to Satanism and the Devil,” he said.
lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06030104.html
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Verita
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Can you give me an example of “HP using evil powers to attempt to bring a good out of it”? Honestly, I think HP defines good and evil just as clearly as Narnia does, better even. I think it defines it in a much more realistic way that children can really learn from. So can you give an actual example where it does otherwise?
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Tom317
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One major point the must be made clear is the Narnia and Middle earth are unquestionably fantasy wrolds, not at all like real like–quite similar to the Land of Oz, no one will mistake those worlds for our own. Unlike those tales, HP takes place in settings that are all too familar to any child and HP is treated brutally, which ultimately ends-up with him being invited to attend classes on Potions, Spells, Transformation, Divination etc… as HP learns the basic acts of the old Sorcerers Craft he begins to sharpen his innate magical talents. Harry and others learn to know the future as the author accurately describes the functions of divination. Later in the story HP actually uses his learned talents to help rid evil and evil characters of the world.
The problem is kids learn that using power from satan is a good thing, that the end justifies the means and that is okay to use evil so long as we want the end to be good. And, while the books do not contain real spells and magic, they do tend to make kids want to learn the real deal.
Beyond all of this, and we can go back and forth for a long time, Cardinal Ratzinger, our current Pope, has given public reservations about the Books, and the Vatican’s chief exorcist (a person who knows about these things personally and at a level that would truly frighten the rest of us) condemns the stories. If I did not see anything wrong with the books, Cardnial Ratzinger and the Chief Exorcists opinions would be enough for me because the books are entertainment, not required reading.
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Tom317
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Odds are the vast majority of kids will not be harmed by the HP books, yet we cannot be even remotely close to sure they won’t be somehow deeply moved at the level of their souls…and I say “why take a chance with their eternal soul?”
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Verita
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On the contrary. Narnia is in fact a part of our world and one can move back and forth from one to the other. In fact, in The Magician’s Nephew the character Uncle Andrew actually creates magic rings in the middle of London. Narnia is really not so different as you suggest. Likewise, Middle Earth is our world only a very long time ago. Tolkien wrote his books intending them to be a distant history of our world.
And you hit the nail on the head when you said that Harry uses his innate talents. That word is very important. In HP people are born with magical ability. And nothing you are born with can possibly come from the devil. His power is not from Satan. Anyone with a correct understanding of the nature of good and evil will know that nothing is innately evil. Everything is created good. The abilities that Harry is created with are also good. It is merely what is done with these abilities that leads to evil.
Magic is evil in the real world because of where it comes from. When a saint miraculously heals someone, many would call this magic. But we know that because the power comes from God it is good. Magic is evil when a person obtains it from satan or uses immoral means to gain power. In the Potterverse, as it is called by fans, (showing a clear understanding that it is fictional) magic is not something you gain but soemthing you are born with. And everything we are born with comes from God.
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Verita
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And I say again, that this can also happen with many other things. Why not deny your kids Narnia and LOTR? They also are fantasy books that have magic and evil in them. Do you really want to take the chance? Maybe it would be better to deny them books and movies altogether.
You may say I’m assuming again, but every comment you make gives more evidence that you haven’t actually read the books and you are getting your knowledge and opinions from others. Are you willing to give an answer yet? Anyway, if you haven’t read them, I would suggest you do so. You might find them better than you expected. At least you would have better grounds for dismissing them as “works of satan”.
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estesbob
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Well he did turn his aunt into a blimp…
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Tom317
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Magic always comes from satan, never from God–never, which goes to the very essense of the point I am making. Satan wants us to think using his powers is a very good thing, and he will also accept it if we just become lukewarm to the reality of his powers, because lukearmness can lead to the death of a soul and satans knows that better then we do. Glinda in the Land of Oz would be a character to be condemned if it were not for the fact that Oz does not and never did exist (there is no such thing as a good witch, all magic comes from satan), likewise for Middle Earth.
Satan likely loves it when we accept his power in any fashion we do, and I am sure he likes the fact that most people think HP is harmless fun–Eve thought the fruit was harmless as well.
I fear we could go at this for a very long time, and in the end neither of us will have changed a bit. The HP discussion/debate divided into two campes many years ago and we enter these talks foolishly imo.
In the end, I obviously disagree with your assessment or I would not bother being here at all, yet I respect your views and thank you for the chat.
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estesbob
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This magic came from J K Rowling…Magic always comes from satan, never from God–never, which goes to the very essense of the point I am making.
BTW-I finished Prisioner of Azkaban last night and started Goblet of Fire-my second time through. I think the Order of the Phoenix was the is the best of the lot.
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