Harry Potter?!?

[LJN21]

You are right, of Course-they should have let Hermoine die-after all a D in conduct could have followed them for the rest of their lives. I am just lucky that my children turned out OK. But then I didnt have you solid logic to fall back on when I was raising them.

Still suspect they secretly hate me for allowing them to read these horrid books. Why they could be in therapy for years and years-I dont know if Il will ever live down the shame of this.

Your the one that attacked my logic for not letting my children read them. Pot…

How about they go tell a teacher. How about the author take some shred of responsibility in writing a CHILDERNS book and not put tricky moral situations that could be used by children to justify their actions in other situations. I as a parent see no beneficial reason to let my children read this particular work of fiction.

I never once said it would for sure be harmful, I said I felt it could and I choose to not let my kids read them and listed my reasons why. Nor did I attack others for letting there kids read it. That’s their responsibility as parents. Instead of respecting my decision you make wild assertations ludacris commentary on things not even said.

You are way out of line in you comments and attitude towards parents discussing of a Non necessary work of FICTION.

 

[LJN21]

For me there is an important distinction between the assertion that there are no human souls in hell and the assertion that we do not know if there are any human souls in hell.

Sorry should of phrased it better, but my boss called while typing.

The church doesn’t even teach there might not be, it teaches it can’t know who.

At Fatima (I know private revelation) the children saw souls falling into hell as snowflakes.

 

[estesbob]

The point is that all of these things exist and there are gateways into all of them. IMO, we are not to live in fear, yet we must not be blind either. Satan wants us to look the other way, he wants us to think a thousand different things are perfectly harmless, he is the great deceiver, the prince of lies.

The Chief Exorcist of Rome believes HP creates a gateway to the occult and I tend to think he is right.Cardinal Ratzinger also held a negative view of the books. Now, both of those opinions are fallible and in no way binding, yet I do think they hold great merit.

Well I couldnt get a hold of my youngest daughter last night. I though she was just out for dinner but perhaps she was sucked into the gateway to hell her Harry Potter books opened up.

We really should get these books pulled out of all bokkstores. Imagine someone going into Borders to by Pippi Longstocking who accidently walks by a Harry Potter book and get sucked into an open gateway,

http://www.aerojad.com/Documents/HellFall_01.gif

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Care to explain to me why it is necessary and seemingly good and wholesome to write disobedience to legitimate authority as correct and praiseworthy in a children’s book? (I suppose the SPXX is completely justified!) Hows does this help form children? How does it effect them to read constant disobedience and lying and have it be rewarded and praised?

Well, in real life sometimes we “get away” with our bad choices and sometimes we don’t. In this example, of Harry and Ron disobeying to save Hermione from the troll, they “get away” with not being perfect. There are many other instances in the books that they don’t “get away” with their bad choices and bad behavior.

I would say that from the above example (troll incident) they show that they value the life of another over the “rules”. They are not concerned with getting into trouble, they are concerned about Hermione’s life. They are willing to lay down their own lives for their friend (something Jesus tells us we should be willing to do).

Now, Hermione lies about why they are all there . . . and that used to trouble me but I think what JKR is trying to do is establish that Hermione is **not **perfect and even one who is so inclined to follow the rules to the letter can not do so. Sounds like the way the Pharaisees expect everyone to follow the Mosaic law and can’t and how they get so wrapped up in the rules they forget what the rules are established for in the first place.

 

[Tom317]

Your the one that attacked my logic for not letting my children read them. Pot…

How about they go tell a teacher. How about the author take some shred of responsibility in writing a CHILDERNS book and not put tricky moral situations that could be used by children to justify their actions in other situations. I as a parent see no beneficial reason to let my children read this particular work of fiction.

I never once said it would for sure be harmful, I said I felt it could and I choose to not let my kids read them and listed my reasons why. Nor did I attack others for letting there kids read it. That’s their responsibility as parents. Instead of respecting my decision you make wild assertations ludacris commentary on things not even said.

You are way out of line in you comments and attitude towards parents discussing of a Non necessary work of FICTION.

Irrational and emotional responses are quite common from people who love and defend HP. I have seen it hundreds of times. Many people (not all) who otherwise have their minds well and calmly planted, often become irrational and filled with emotion when they defend those books…it amazes me beyond words. It is as if opinions that HP might be dangerous is somehow a direct insult to them.

 

[Tom317]

Well I couldnt get a hold of my youngest daughter last night. I though she was just out for dinner but perhaps she was sucked into the gateway to hell her Harry Potter books opened up.

We really should get these books pulled out of all bokkstores. Imagine someone going into Borders to by Pippi Longstocking who accidently walks by a Harry Potter book and get sucked into an open gateway,

http://www.aerojad.com/Documents/HellFall_01.gif

So, you just contradicted your previous post, in which you said you believed in the things I listed.

I find it interesting that you and I have had many conversations, and have quite often agreed on a plethora of issues, yet this is the FIRST time I have ever seen you use this much sarcasm and humor–sarcasm and humor that is wrongly used here imo.

 

[Tom317]

For me there is an important distinction between the assertion that there are no human souls in hell and the assertion that we do not know if there are any human souls in hell.

Sorry should of phrased it better, but my boss called while typing.

I think it does us good to remember that Jesus said that the path to life is narrow, and that path to destruction is wide. I do not think He was using sarcasm or humor.

 

[LJN21]

Well, in real life sometimes we “get away” with our bad choices and sometimes we don’t. In this example, of Harry and Ron disobeying to save Hermione from the troll, they “get away” with not being perfect. There are many other instances in the books that they don’t “get away” with their bad choices and bad behavior.

I would say that from the above example (troll incident) they show that they value the life of another over the “rules”. They are not concerned with getting into trouble, they are concerned about Hermione’s life. They are willing to lay down their own lives for their friend (something Jesus tells us we should be willing to do).

Now, Hermione lies about why they are all there . . . and that used to trouble me but I think what JKR is trying to do is establish that Hermione is **not **perfect and even one who is so inclined to follow the rules to the letter can not do so. Sounds like the way the Pharaisees expect everyone to follow the Mosaic law and can’t and how they get so wrapped up in the rules they forget what the rules are established for in the first place.

Its also quite common for them to brake the rules and lie out of “necessity” and get rewarded for it. My main problem is this is in a children’s book I don’t think its appropriate to write these kind of behaviors for children. Just how I feel about it.

 

[maria29]

The Church does NOT teach that about hell, it only says we do not know who is in hell.

If you had read further you’d see that I did saythis…

For me there is an important distinction between the assertion that there are no human souls in hell and the assertion that we do not know if there are any human souls in hell…

 

[estesbob]

Its also quite common for them to brake the rules and lie out of “necessity” and get rewarded for it. My main problem is this is in a children’s book I don’t think its appropriate to write these kind of behaviors for children. Just how I feel about it.

He wasnt asked to defend the Hiram Potterlevin books…

 

[Tom317]

If you had read further you’d see that I did saythis…

For me there is an important distinction between the assertion that there are no human souls in hell and the assertion that we do not know if there are any human souls in hell…

I did see it, thank you for the clarification. I responded to your post:

I think it does us good to remember that Jesus said that the path to life is narrow, and that path to destruction is wide. I do not think He was using sarcasm or humor.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Its also quite common for them to brake the rules and lie out of “necessity” and get rewarded for it. My main problem is this is in a children’s book I don’t think its appropriate to write these kind of behaviors for children. Just how I feel about it.

Can you give me another example(s) where they lie and are rewarded?

The Harry Potter series is the typical “hero’s journey” . The hero is not perfect, the hero makes mistakes but ultimately the hero triumphs over evil, that’s why he’s the hero. Even Frodo and Samwise have their own imperfections. Ulysses makes many “bad choices”. And Peter, Edmund and Eustace (in Narnia) as well have flaws. And yet they overcome the obstacles and are the heros.

People lie. Its very easy to do and get away with. No, its not right but I don’t think JKR is condoning lying. I also don’t think that kids read these books and think they can lie and get away with it all the time (because Harry doesn’t either). If anything they will see that actions have consequences, somtimes horrible.

 

[estesbob]

So, you just contradicted your previous post, in which you said you believed in the things I listed.

I find it interesting that you and I have had many conversations, and have quite often agreed on a plethora of issues, yet this is the FIRST time I have ever seen you use this much sarcasm and humor–sarcasm and humor that is wrongly used here imo.

It suddenly occured to me that I was having a serios debate with someone about the apropriatness of killing a 12 foot Troll. After that realization Sarcasm and Humor really seem to be the only path to take…

 

[Tom317]

It suddenly occured to me that I was having a serios debate with someone about the apropriatness of killing a 12 foot Troll. After that realization Sarcasm and Humor really seem to be the only path to take…

Okay, well I’ll have to give you that point.

 

[estesbob]

Okay, well I’ll have to give you that point.

Tom we have disagreed about this for as long as i can remember. We are not going to agree. Sorry if you took offense to my sarcasm. It was meant to be good natured.

 

[LJN21]

Can you give me another example(s) where they lie and are rewarded?

The Harry Potter series is the typical “hero’s journey” . The hero is not perfect, the hero makes mistakes but ultimately the hero triumphs over evil, that’s why he’s the hero. Even Frodo and Samwise have their own imperfections. Ulysses makes many “bad choices”. And Peter, Edmund and Eustace (in Narnia) as well have flaws. And yet they overcome the obstacles and are the heros.

People lie. Its very easy to do and get away with. No, its not right but I don’t think JKR is condoning lying. I also don’t think that kids read these books and think they can lie and get away with it all the time (because Harry doesn’t either). If anything they will see that actions have consequences, somtimes horrible.

Its the sometimes part that gets me.

Ulysses isn’t childerns novel, nor is the Lord of the Rings either. Does Taran (The Book of Three) lie or disobey? There are no bones about Edmund and Eustace neither of them are beloved charcers in the book and there actions always have consiquess. Do Lucy, Susan and Peter ever use a bad act to acheive a good end?

The very end of The Chamber of Secrets (page 243 in my copy Bloomsbury publishing)

‘I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expel you if you broke any more school rules,’ said Dumbledore.
Ron opened his mouth in horror.
‘Which goes to show that the best of us must sometimes eat our words,’ Dumbledore went on, smiling. ‘You will both receive Special Awards for Service to the school and - let me see - yes, I think two hundred point apiece for Gryffindor.’

 

[LJN21]

It suddenly occured to me that I was having a serios debate with someone about the apropriatness of killing a 12 foot Troll. After that realization Sarcasm and Humor really seem to be the only path to take…

Sorry I thought we were having a serious debate about what people thought of the appropriateness of Harry Potter for kids…

If you want to kill a troll … I suggest lots of fire or acid. We all know they regenerate health at 1d4 points per round unless you do so.

 

[estesbob]

People lie. Its very easy to do and get away with. No, its not right but I don’t think JKR is condoning lying. I also don’t think that kids read these books and think they can lie and get away with it all the time (because Harry doesn’t either). If anything they will see that actions have consequences, somtimes horrible.

In the Chamber of Secrets Harry lies and almost gets eaten by a 30 foot Basalik becuase of it. In the Sorcerers Stone he is caught breaking the rules and almost gets eaten as a Werewolf becuase of it. In Order of Phoenix he smarts off to teacher, gets tossed off the Quiddich team and his detention results in the Back of His hand having “I will not tell lies” carved into it over and over and over again.

 

[maria29]

In the Chamber of Secrets Harry lies and almost gets eaten by a 30 foot Basalik becuase of it. In the Sorcerers Stone he is caught breaking the rules and almost gets eaten as a Werewolf becuase of it. In Order of Phoenix he smarts off to teacher, gets tossed off the Quiddich team and his detention results in the Back of His hand having “I will not tell lies” carved into it over and over and over again.

You forgot the time they go into the forbidden woods (although to be fair they did do it as a favor for Hagrid) and almost get eaten by Agog.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Its the sometimes part that gets me.

Ulysses isn’t childerns novel, nor is the Lord of the Rings either. Does Taran (The Book of Three) lie or disobey? There are no bones about Edmund and Eustace neither of them are beloved charcers in the book and there actions always have consiquess. Do Lucy, Susan and Peter ever use a bad act to acheive a good end?

The very end of The Chamber of Secrets (page 243 in my copy Bloomsbury publishing)

I wasn’t using Ulysees & LotR as examples of children’s literature, but as example of the hero’s journey and how heros are flawed.

Susan and Peter don’t always act very well. And Edmund and Eustace are examples of “bad choices”. The point I was trying to make was that all characters are flawed. So are we and we can identify with them. We recognize their flaws in ourselves, see them overcome the obstacles and have hope. We rejoice in the triumph of good over evil through a flawed character. That’s our story. We are flawed, from Adam, and we triumph through Christ! (Yeah, there is Christian symbolism in the HP series).

Now to your HP example: Again, in this case there was a disregard for the rules but why? They had just saved Ginny from certain death. Do you worry about the rules or about yourself (getting expelled in this case) or do you save a life? Life trumps rules.