Has Eternal Life?

[JoeyWarren]

I found it John 5:24

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

The word used for has is greek for “To Have”. It is a greek contingency verb, and the actual word in Greek as an stem suffix of future tense.

The Greek is very interesting.

 

[guanophore]

Bishopite;2033696:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2034128&postcount=118

Manipulation

Why do you say that?

 

[Bishopite]

[LuvHim;2034126]

That was the difference between Peter and Judas…Peter was chosen. Peter did not lose his salvation - but still needed to repent for a right relationship with God.

So to believe isn’t a choice?

Peter was washed…completely clean…

John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all

You’ve got it wrong, I’m afraid. This is speaking of baptism which washes ones sins away in a unitive act of the spirit and water see John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:19-21

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So that would mean you don’t sin?

1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Right. This verse mentions first baptism, then sanctification, then justification. Washed is a reference to baptism, John 3:5, Titus 3:5.

And those who are foreknown, predestined, called, are susequently justified and then glorified…the chain cannot be broken.

I see. So, when Jesus said in Luke 9:23 "Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

Jesus said this “to them all” implying all around Him which NOT all were the elect. So why would Jesus says take up your cross and follow ME if they weren’t “predestined” to do it? Is Jesus asking the impossible for the non predestined?

 

[Bishopite]

Why do you say that?

Actually, I didn’t say that and I’m not sure how that got there. I posted an answer to Hebrew 6:4-7 from Jimmy Akin’s blog of Catholic Answers. And I must have cut that out also. I meant no harm in it. And I will search it again to see where it came from. Sorry for the mistake.

 

[guanophore]

First, what Book, Chapter, and Verse are you quoting from and from which translation?

2nd what is “Eternal Lfie”? What is your definition of this term?

How about houses, brothers, sisters, etc. lands…and persectutions! 29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Scripture is quite clear that one who has been born again has eternal life and cannot lose it. If someone falls away, they never had it to begin with…

I take it then, Luv, that you hold position number (2).

(1) Eternal life does not begin until after death.

(2) Once a person receives eternal life, he begins living it in the present, and God makes some change in him so that he will never want to walk away.

(3) Eternal life begins at the moment we enter the state of God’s grace and continues after death, unless we reject God’s grace.

Would you say Jesus is teaching position (2) in John 5:24?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think not, Socrates. I think that eternal life cannot be found outside of God Himself, therefore, they are one and the same.

Thank you, guano, but the question was for Joey.

 

[LuvHim]

So to believe isn’t a choice?

You’ve got it wrong, I’m afraid. This is speaking of baptism which washes ones sins away in a unitive act of the spirit and water see John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:19-21

So that would mean you don’t sin?

Right. This verse mentions first baptism, then sanctification, then justification. Washed is a reference to baptism, John 3:5, Titus 3:5.

I see. So, when Jesus said in Luke 9:23 "Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

Jesus said this “to them all” implying all around Him which NOT all were the elect. So why would Jesus says take up your cross and follow ME if they weren’t “predestined” to do it? Is Jesus asking the impossible for the non predestined?

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

It is by the offering of Christ that I am made perfected - I have a right standing with God. I am justified - and there is therefore now no condemnation for me - Praise God! I still sin - but am regularly repentant by God’s grace and He continues to keep me and pray for me. I did not choose Christ - but he chose me. It was not by my will nor by my works…

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

THE LAW NO LONGER HAS JURISDITION OVER ME!!!

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

I no longer live - but am crucified with Christ…

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The elect HAVE eternal life which by definition - lasts forever…dead to the law, pardoned, kept and preserved by God for all eternity.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Are these the two to which you are referring?

Sorry, Bishopite, it appears i’m being clear as mud!

The lower case letters (a) and (b) are the definitions of eternal life i am considering. The capital letters (A) and (B) are specific examples of how these definitions apply to John 5:24.

The definitions are:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.

or**(b)** God himself.​

My proposed application of these two definitions to the text are:

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”(John 5:24)(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” I’m trying to understand the meaning of what Jesus is saying in John 5:24, specifically, at what point in time does a person receive eternal life and what did Jesus mean by the words eternal life?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand. …The elect HAVE eternal life which by definition - lasts forever - dead to the law, pardoned, kept and preserved by God for all eternity.

There is no need to shout, brother! We’re trying to have a reasonable and respectful conversation, not a knock-down, drag-out war of words. I hope you will join in the conversation instead of standing at a distance shaking the Bible in protest.

To be fair to you, LuvHim, i think i should add a third definition for us to consider, which i shall call definition (c). I would be interested in hearing you defend this definition.

The definitions are:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins after death, but which has no end.or**(b)** God himself.

or

(c) A state of existence that begins at the moment a person repents of his sin and puts is trust in him (Jesus).

​

Rather than quote dozens of verses to find out which definition is closest to the truth, i thought it would be easier to consider how these definitions apply to just one:

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”(John 5:24)

The applications might be as follows:(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” --------------------------(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [God himself in the present and will continue to have God if he continues to love and obey Him] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” --------------------------

(C)

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [right now, as a life he is living in the present, and as a life that will continue after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” Everyone is trying to help me understand the meaning of what Jesus is saying in John 5:24, specifically, what did Jesus mean by the words eternal life [did he mean (a) or (b) or (c)?] and at what point in time does a person receive eternal life [is it (A) or (B) or (C)?].

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I hope you will try to help me, too.

 

[Linkowski]

There is no need to shout, brother! We’re trying to have a reasonable and respectful conversation, not a knock-down, drag-out war of words. I hope you will join in the conversation instead of standing at a distance shaking the Bible in protest.

To be fair to you, LuvHim, i think i should add a third definition for us to consider, which i shall call definition (c). I would be interested in hearing you defend this definition.

The definitions are:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins after death, but which has no end.or**(b)** God himself.

or

(c) A state of existence that begins at the moment a person repents of his sin and puts is trust in him (Jesus).

​

Rather than quote dozens of verses to find out which definition is closest to the truth, i thought it would be easier to consider how these definitions apply to just one:

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

(John 5:24)

The applications might be as follows:(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

---

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

---

(C)

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [right now, as a life he is living in the present, and as a life that will continue after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
Everyone is trying to help me understand the meaning of what Jesus is saying in John 5:24, specifically, what did Jesus mean by the words eternal life [did he mean (a) or (b) or (c)?] and at what point in time does a person receive eternal life [is it (A) or (B) or (C)?].

I happen to agree with you on this one…once the elect gain eternal life - they have it forever. The elect will always be the elect.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I happen to agree with you on this one…

No offense taken, Linkowski! and i’m praying!



I’m just trying to understand different perspectives. Before i came here i was convinced (c) was the definition of eternal life and (C) was the correct interpretation of the words of our precious Lord and Savior. Now i’m not so certain and i want to give other ideas a try, trusting that God will show me the truth.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Is there anyone who believes (c) is not a possible definition of eternal life? Does anyone think (C) is absolutely an incorrect interpretation of John 5:24?
(c) A state of existence that begins at the moment a person repents of his sin and puts is trust in him (Jesus).
(C) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [right now, as a life he is living in the present, and as a life that will continue after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Will you tell us why you believe (c) and (C) are not true?

 

[guanophore]

Is there anyone who believes (c) is not a possible definition of eternal life? Does anyone think (C) is absolutely an incorrect interpretation of John 5:24?
(c) A state of existence that begins at the moment a person repents of his sin and puts is trust in him (Jesus).
(C) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [right now, as a life he is living in the present, and as a life that will continue after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Will you tell us why you believe (c) and (C) are not true?

A saving faith, one that is placed in Jesus, hears HIs words. This means he is obedient. Remember the great commission?

Matt 28:18-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”

He does not say “when they believe in their hearts”…He says teach them to obsere (do) ALL that is commanded. That means from the moment of initial justification to the Day of the Lord.

 

[Bishopite]

Sorry, Bishopite, it appears i’m being clear as mud!

The lower case letters (a) and (b) are the definitions of eternal life i am considering. The capital letters (A) and (B) are specific examples of how these definitions apply to John 5:24.

The definitions are:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.or**(b)** God himself.​

My proposed application of these two definitions to the text are:

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”(John 5:24)(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” (B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” I’m trying to understand the meaning of what Jesus is saying in John 5:24, specifically, at what point in time does a person receive eternal life and what did Jesus mean by the words eternal life?

No problem. I thought that was what you were saying but I wanted a clarification.
Eternal life is being with God in heaven and seeing Him as He is in all of His glory.

I would say eternal life is strictly A nor B but both and since eternal life does start at a point in time (what Catholicism calls intitial justification) yet we aren’t there until we endure to the end and die, then it is fixed forever and we will be with and like God yet as God.

 

[Bishopite]

Is there anyone who believes (c) is not a possible definition of eternal life? Does anyone think (C) is absolutely an incorrect interpretation of John 5:24? (c) A state of existence that begins at the moment a person repents of his sin and puts is trust in him (Jesus).

(C) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [right now, as a life he is living in the present, and as a life that will continue after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Will you tell us why you believe (c) and (C) are not true?

I would agree with (c) yet it only gives part of the whole picture and (C) also even though it only tells us of the persons state at this moment in time; it doesn’t address whether or not that person will endure to the end of life.

 

[Bishopite]

I happen to agree with you on this one…once the elect gain eternal life - they have it forever. The elect will always be the elect.

Once the elect gain eternal life, sure but that doesn’t happend until death. We Catholics don’t oppose the truth that there are the elect, nor that God doesn’t predestines some to heaven, this is true, however what we oppose is that God predestines some to hell. And we oppose the false idea that when you become justified, you WILL necessarily keep the same statue before God to the end of your life, for there are many temptations and grave sins (1 John 5) one can fall into and die. 1 Cor 6:9-11 explains them and 1 John 3:7 says “take head lest ye fall.” We must endure to the end Mt 10:22, 24:13 and do so with the love of Christ (Mt 25:34-41, Gal 5:6) and if we do then we most certainly will be part of the elect.

 

[japhy]

2 Peter 1:10-11… choose your translation. Preface (2 Peter 1:3-9) is from the RSV:
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

(RSV) Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

(NAB) Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

(KJV) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It sounds like Peter is saying it is our duty to make certain (or sure, or firm) our calling and election. We must make sure of it, so that we will not fall. How do we do that? By manifesting the qualities found in the first verses of the letter: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, steadfastness, godliness, brotherly affection, and love. But not only must we have these, they must abound! The person in whom they are not present, or are shown grudgingly (that is, not aboundingly) has forgotten that he was cleansed of his sin; it doesn’t say he was never “elect” or never forgiven in the first place, it says he forgot that he was forgiven (and therefore, what was expected of him in return).

 

[Bishopite]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

What you don’t understand is that your idea of the “law” being only the OT law without ANY moral aspects within it are false and will always be so.

It is by the offering of Christ that I am made perfected - I have a right standing with God. I am justified - and there is therefore now no condemnation for me - Praise God! I still sin - but am regularly repentant by God’s grace and He continues to keep me and pray for me. I did not choose Christ - but he chose me. It was not by my will nor by my works…