Has Eternal Life?

[Socrates4Jesus]

A saving faith, one that is placed in Jesus, hears HIs words. This means he is obedient. Remember the great commission?

Matt 28:18-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”

He does not say “when they believe in their hearts”…He says teach them to obsere (do) ALL that is commanded. That means from the moment of initial justification to the Day of the Lord.

Neither does he say that baptizing and obeying cause them to be saved. There is no doubt a Christian should be baptized and should obey. There is no doubt that a person who calls himself a Christian yet continues to live more like the Lucifer than our Lord shows by his actions that he likely has a said faith rather than a genuine one (for a genuine faith requires repentance and results in obedience that increases over time). The doubt with which i am struggling is whether the good things a person does are not just a result but also a reason for that person receiving the gift of eternal life. I think this is a topic for another discussion thread, however. When i have the time i will start one in which others can help explain a passage of Scripture or two that talk about this idea of the role of obedience in salvation.

 

[Bishopite]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

THE LAW NO LONGER HAS JURISDITION OVER ME!!!

Perhaps I should say it this way, Christians are, technically speaking, not bound by the Ten Commandments what I mean by that is what I said earlier that they don’t have to obey the law of Torah in its technical sense. Technically speaking we don’t because the Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Law; and, in Christ Jesus, we are saved apart from the Mosaic Law, through a Covenant of grace, not law. So, as a matter of law, we are not bound to the Ten Commandments. If we were bound by them as a matter of law, then the punishments associated with them as a matter of law would be applicable to us (e.g. if you commit adultery, you get stoned to death). So, we are clearly not bound by the Ten Commandments** as a matter of law.** HOWEVER, we ARE bound to the righteousness BEHIND the Ten Commandments, i,e., the moral aspects of it or the moral law, which is manifested in the Person of Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Word of God and the perfection of the Law. So, if we are in a Covenant with Christ, then we are bound, not only to keep the righteousness of the Ten Commandments, but to surpass what is demanded (as a matter of mere law) in the Ten Commandments. Go read Matt 5. There, Jesus says, “You have heard it said of old, ‘Thou shall not kill’ …But I say to you, whoever calls his brother ‘raqa’ (that is, ‘fool!’)” has broken this commandment. He also says, "You have heard it said of old, ‘Thou shall not commit adultery,’ " but if we look at a woman lustfully, we have already committed adultery with her in our hearts. Jesus calls us to go beyond the mere requirements of the Law (the Ten Commandments), and to be perfect even as He is perfect Mt 5:48. For, under the law, it was (technically) okay to beat a man within an inch of his life, just as long as you don’t actually kill him. It was also okay to lust over your friend’s teenaged daugter, just as long as you don’t actually cheat on your wife and sleep with her. This is how the Pharisees saw it. They were pure legalists Catholicisim isn’t. They held God to the bare letter of what His Law said, and so tried to “get around” the spirit of the Law as much as they could. But, Christ calls His disciples to a greater commitment --to a true and living Covenant. And so, we are not bound by the legal dimension of the Ten Commandments. Rather, we are bound by their righteousness --that is, to live righteously, because we are in a relationship with Christ, and in a Covenant of grace with Him.

 

[Bishopite]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

THE LAW NO LONGER HAS JURISDITION OVER ME!!!

Again I’m trying to help you understand that Catholics distinguish (like you do) between a Covenant based on love and grace and a Covenant based on mere law. The “commandments” of Christ that we are bound to are not “legal” commandments. There is no prescribed “legal punishments” for breaking them (e.g. stoning). Rather, the punishment for breaking them is that we loose our unity of holiness with Christ and isolate ourselves from Him (and His Church). This is the only reason that people really go to hell. Jesus doesn’t want anyone to go there; but He allows them to go there if they do not want a unity of holiness (a Covenant of grace and love) with Him. So, while we are not bound to the commandments of Christ as a matter of law, we are bound to our Covenantal commitment to Jesus --our “marriage” to Him (see Ephes 5:25-32); and if we “cheat” on Him through sin, then our marriage has been dishonored and we need to repent for what we have done and return to Him in holiness. You seem to ignore this dimension because you believe in the heresy of eternal security, which is based upon Luther’s heresy of imputed justification --that is, the idea that we remain corrupt and sinful, but Christ’s righteousness is merely “imputed” (that is, legalistically applied or attributed) to us. But, this is not what Scripture says. Scripture says that, in Christ, we are made into a new creation (2 Corinth 5:17). Righteousness and justification are not merely “imputed” to us, but infused into us, transforming us into images of Christ Himself (2 Corinth 3:18) and allowing us to literally partake of His Divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). **Thus, we are not free from the righteousness behind the Ten Commandments (that is, the righteousness of Jesus Christ), but are called by His grace to live in this righteousness --that is, to be holy and righteous like Him and in communion with Him. **See 1 John 3:4-8, which very clearly reveals that imputed justification is a man-made error cooked up by Martin Luther in the 16th Century. And, if imputed justification is wrong, then eternal security is wrong. “No man can serve two masters.” You cannot be committed to Christ and also indulge in sin. as I showed from 1 Cor 6:9-11. If you are guilty of sin --that is, if you live unrepentantly apart from Jesus Christ and His righteousness --then you are not “secure” in Him. You DO need to repent and examine your relationship with Christ often and be faithful as you have said you do.

 

[guanophore]

Neither does he say that baptizing and obeying cause them to be saved. There is no doubt a Christian should be baptized and should obey.

It does say that…“baptism now saves you”. However, I will accept that you understand this passage differently.

The doubt with which i am struggling is whether the good things a person does are not just a result but also a reason for that person receiving the gift of eternal life. I think this is a topic for another discussion thread, however. When i have the time i will start one in which others can help explain a passage of Scripture or two that talk about this idea of the role of obedience in salvation.

I am not so sure it is far afield of the topic, but there is another thread on this going called “works salvation”. If you search those words you can read that thread, and follow the whole discussion! Suffice to say that there is nothing human beings can do to “earn” or “merit” salvation, which is a free gift of God, and comes to us by His grace, and not our Merit.

 

[petra]

So, the question now before us is this: Which definition was Jesus using when he spoke these words?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
In other words, did God mean this?

(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Or did he mean this?

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me [is united with God and partakes in His eternal life] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Hi Socrates,

It would have to be B (although I reworded the text in brackets to be more specific), given that other parts of scripture clearly indicate that our ultimate salvation depends upon our enduring to the end and remaining in Christ.

petra

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
The doubt with which i am struggling is whether the good things a person does are not just a result but also a reason for that person receiving the gift of eternal life. I think this is a topic for another discussion thread, however. When i have the time i will start one in which others can help explain a passage of Scripture or two that talk about this idea of the role of obedience in salvation.

I know too many Christians that go to their church on Wednesday, Sunday Morning, and Sunday Night who profess without a doubt that they are going to heaven.

Yet, they have hardly lifted a finger to clothe the naked, quench the thirsty, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, visit the sick. Will they be sorted into the sheep or the goats? One must endure to the end.

No one can earn or merit salvation, but one must maintain that state of salvation. One does not maintain salvation or endure by sitting on one’s haunches and let the world go by without a care or concern for those that are the least of Jesus.

My boss’ chuch(Presbyterian) runs a program for those considering abortion. That is the only program they have. They don’t have a program to feed the hungry, they don’t have a program to quench the thirsty, they don’t have a program clothe the naked, they don’t have a program to viisit the sick, they don’t have a program to visit the imprisoned.

Goats or Sheep?

 

[guanophore]

 

[guanophore]

Neither does he say that baptizing and obeying cause them to be saved. There is no doubt a Christian should be baptized and should obey. There is no doubt that a person who calls himself a Christian yet continues to live more like the Lucifer than our Lord shows by his actions that he likely has a said faith rather than a genuine one (for a genuine faith requires repentance and results in obedience that increases over time). The doubt with which i am struggling is whether the good things a person does are not just a result but also a reason for that person receiving the gift of eternal life. I think this is a topic for another discussion thread, however. When i have the time i will start one in which others can help explain a passage of Scripture or two that talk about this idea of the role of obedience in salvation.

I guess I do not understand the struggle, Socrates. What would you need to stop struggling? Both the Scriptures and the teachings of the church say that we are saved by grace, through faith. What prevents you from accepting this?

 

[guanophore]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

Do you mean to say that people here are stubbornly resistant to what you have to say?

It is by the offering of Christ that I am made perfected - I have a right standing with God. I am justified - and there is therefore now no condemnation for me - Praise God! I still sin - but am regularly repentant by God’s grace and He continues to keep me and pray for me. I did not choose Christ - but he chose me. It was not by my will nor by my works…

Good for you! Are you here on the forum to share the good news with us?

THE LAW NO LONGER HAS JURISDITION OVER ME!!!

Does that mean you don’ t have to follow the ten commandments?

The elect HAVE eternal life which by definition - lasts forever…dead to the law, pardoned, kept and preserved by God for all eternity.

This no doubt gives you great peace of mind.

 

[petra]

None of you, I am quite convinced, will ever understand because you will not understand.

I know exactly where you are coming from. I was a Calvinist for 22 years.

It is by the offering of Christ that I am made perfected - I have a right standing with God. I am justified - and there is therefore now no condemnation for me - Praise God! I still sin - but am regularly repentant by God’s grace and He continues to keep me and pray for me. I did not choose Christ - but he chose me. It was not by my will nor by my works…

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

THE LAW NO LONGER HAS JURISDITION OVER ME!!!

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

I no longer live - but am crucified with Christ…

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Catholic faith is in total agreement with the above.

The elect HAVE eternal life which by definition - lasts forever…dead to the law, pardoned, kept and preserved by God for all eternity.

Please see posts 38 and 39 in this thread. Yes, “eternal” means “last forever”. God is eternal. When we are saved, we are joined to Him and partake in His divine and eternal nature. Thus, we have eternal life. It is eternal because He is eternal, not because we are given something eternally, necessarily.

The mistake that you and many Protestants make is you view salvation as a possession. If you have something that is characterized as eternal, then the logical conclusion is that you have it eternally, with no interruption. The Catholic concept of salvation is a mystical union with Christ. We are called to be “in Christ” and “remain in Christ.” We are partakers of His divine nature. The opportunity to be joined with Him is, indeed, a gift that He offers to all. And, yes, we receive that gift. But salvation is not merely a possession—the transfer of an object from God to man.

The scriptures are abundantly clear that authentic believers can turn from God and fall from grace. But this in no way contradicts the concept of eternal life.

John indicates that we can have present assurance of eternal life (1 John 5:13). We can know right now that we are right with God and in His grace. You might be surprised that Catholic doctrine completely supports this. However, the once-saved-always-saved doctrine only provides for assurance of eternal life retrospectively, at the end of one’s life. In the Calvinist framework, it is impossible to know that you are currently saved. I don’t think this is what John intended. Please see the referenced posts above for an explanation of why Calvinism cannot provide for the assurance that John speaks of.

Peace,

petra

 

[petra]

Peter lied to save his own skin. that is not the same as denying his belief in Christ. He never stopped believing that Jesus was/is the messiah. He just got scared.

I recommend that you read History of the Church by Eusebius. It is the oldest surviving account of early church history, besides the scriptures. The early Christians had the understanding that if someone denied Christ to avoid martyrdom, they would lose their salvation. Those that did, were certainly just trying to save their skin. They got scared. But the early Christians were clear that this was a rejection of Christ in the person’s life. Some of those people were executed anyway, even after they denied their faith in Christ. It was universally understood that without repentance, those individuals were sadly lost for eternity.

Harsh? Remember that God’s grace is sufficient for all trials. The harder the trial, the more God’s grace abounds. There is never an excuse for denying Christ. Peter committed a grave sin. However anyone who falls from grace can be reconciled to God, as Peter obviously was.

Peace,

petra

 

[japhy]

Please see posts 38 and 39 in this thread. Yes, “eternal” means “last forever”. God is eternal. When we are saved, we are joined to Him and partake in His divine and eternal nature. Thus, we have eternal life. It is eternal because He is eternal, not because we are given something eternally, necessarily.

Having eternal life is very different from having life eternally.

 

[japhy]

Peter lied to save his own skin. that is not the same as denying his belief in Christ. He never stopped believing that Jesus was/is the messiah. He just got scared.

I disagree that it was that simple.

"So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 10:32-33)

"Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty." (Matt 13:18-23)

Jesus is talking about people being ashamed of him when the situation for a faithful witness to Christ comes about, a situation that may be a tribulation or persecution. When Peter had to follow through on his promise to Jesus (not to deny him but rather to die with him)… he couldn’t. Whether or not he lost his faith in Jesus is not the issue – if he lost it, certainly he regained it – but that he was afraid for himself because of Jesus and denied having anything to do with Jesus, lest harm come to him.

 

[guanophore]

I recommend that you read History of the Church by Eusebius. It is the oldest surviving account of early church history, besides the scriptures. The early Christians had the understanding that if someone denied Christ to avoid martyrdom, they would lose their salvation. Those that did, were certainly just trying to save their skin. They got scared. But the early Christians were clear that this was a rejection of Christ in the person’s life. Some of those people were executed anyway, even after they denied their faith in Christ. It was universally understood that without repentance, those individuals were sadly lost for eternity.

Harsh? Remember that God’s grace is sufficient for all trials. The harder the trial, the more God’s grace abounds. There is never an excuse for denying Christ. Peter committed a grave sin. However anyone who falls from grace can be reconciled to God, as Peter obviously was.

Peace,

petra

I understand. But, would you say that, because Peter did this, He never believed in the first place? I just don’t see how one could support that conclusion, even with the vehement denial.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It does say that…“baptism now saves you”. However, I will accept that you understand this passage differently…

Guano:

Sorry i took so long getting back to you. Work kept me away.

I’m assuming that when you use the pronoun it you are not refering to the words of our beloved Lord and Savior in the passage mentioned (namely, Matthew 28:18-20):

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Please notice that Jesus does not say whether it is a person becoming a disciple (or follower) of himself is what saves a person from hell, nor whether baptizing is what saves a person from hell, nor whether obeying everything he commands us is what saves a person from hell.

There are other passages where he does explicitly say what saves a person from hell. If he is saying these three are causes of salvation, it is unclear from his words and the context of Matthew 28. The passage is too vague to make such a determination.

Perhaps you can find another passage that is less vague?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi Socrates,

It would have to be B (although I reworded the text in brackets to be more specific), given that other parts of scripture clearly indicate that our ultimate salvation depends upon our enduring to the end and remaining in Christ.

petra

Hello Rocky!

Thanks for correcting my definition. It does help me better understand what Catholicism teaches. Will you quote one of these verses about enduring to the end so i can see it in context?

If you need help looking it up, you can use this Web site, choose the version of the Bible you like best, limit the search to the New Testament, and search for the word or phrase for which you are looking:

biblegateway.com/keyword/

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

2 Peter 1:10-11… choose your translation. Preface (2 Peter 1:3-9) …
(RSV) Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

(NAB) Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

(KJV) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It sounds like Peter is saying it is our duty to make certain (or sure, or firm) our calling and election. We must make sure of it, so that we will not fall. How do we do that? By manifesting the qualities found in the first verses of the letter: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, steadfastness, godliness, brotherly affection, and love. …

Thank you, Japhy. By “you will never fall” i’m thinking St. Paul is saying, “you will never sin”. Of course, his is not saying Christians are sinless. We are not sinless, though we do sin less and less. I’m sure you agree he is making a conditional statement, here. IF you do this, you will not sin, he is saying. Of course, we fail to do what St. Paul recommends, so we do sin, even though we do not want to do so. Which is why continual repentance (admitting to God you are not as good as he is) and faith (trusting him to empower you to sin less and obey more, to loath him less and love him more) is so important.

I agree that there is no doubt these are things all Christians should do. After all Jesus suffered to bring us to the Father, how can we do anything else?

There is no doubt that the good things we do demonstrate our love for him and show others we genuinely believe in (or trust) Jesus.

There is no doubt the Father will reward us for the good things we do now when we get to heaven. Some of these rewards might be positions of leadership for us in the new earth, the joy of see others we helped to save from hell in heaven with us, and other things perhaps too wonderful to envision.

The doubt with which i am struggling is whether eternal life (and heaven itself) is one of the rewards or is a gift for which i can do nothing to merit or earn.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.- St. Paul (Romans 6:23)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I guess I do not understand the struggle, Socrates. What would you need to stop struggling? Both the Scriptures and the teachings of the church say that we are saved by grace, through faith. What prevents you from accepting this?

What i think i would need to end the struggle are passages of Scripture that show a causal relationship between good works (or obedience to God) and salvation (or receiving the gift of eternal life).

I’m will start another discussion thread on the topic where i hope others will help me see what the truth really is. Finding the truth about this matter is perhaps the most important thing anyone can do, as it makes a difference in the person’s life not only for time but for eternity.

 

[JoeyWarren]

SocratesForJesus said: Thank you, Japhy. By “you will never fall” i’m thinking St. Paul is saying, “you will never sin”.

Protestantism . Non-catholics are so Paul-oriented in scripture and IMHO and therefore non Christ-oriented in scripture.

This mind is so fixated on what Paul has to say about Salvation in general that the non-catholic subconsciously believes that St. Paul wrote 1st and 2nd Peter instead of St Peter.

Patrick Madrid once stated on a Radio Show:

“On any given issue, A Catholic, if he knows better, will first look to what Jesus said, and the Light of Jesus’ words will illuminate what Paul said, whereas the non-catholic will first look to Paul to see what he says and then tries to shoe-horn what Jesus said”

If one want’s to know the truth in all it’s fullness, one must be Christ-centric scripturally instead of being Paul-centric scripturally.

 

[mikeledes]

I’m wondering what your thoughts are on the meaning of these words of our Lord and Savior:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

(John 5:24)

and also these words:

“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”

(John 14:15-17)

I’m curious as to the Roman Catholic understanding of them. It’s an important question to me personally.

This means that when we become children of God, we participate in the very life of God in Christ (i.e. santifying grace) and we have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What it does not mean is that this participation is absolutely secure for all Christians. There will be those who will fall away and lose this participation.

God Bless,
michael