Has Eternal Life?

[japhy]

I agree that there is no doubt these are things all Christians should do. After all Jesus suffered to bring us to the Father, how can we do anything else?

Well, specifically, we are called to share in his suffering, which for us is manifested not only by dealing with the temptation of sin, but with persecution. Paul litters his epistles with the theme of suffering with Christ so as to share in Christ’s rejoicing; Peter’s letters contain the theme as well. Here are a few passages:

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. (Rom 8:15-18)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. (2 Cor 1:3-5)

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake. (Phil 1:29)

[T]hat I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (Phil 3:10-12)

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. (Col 1:24) Yes, Paul said it! Our sufferings are a necessary part of the ongoing sanctification of the Church! Of course, he does not say that Jesus’s sacrifice was lacking, and the Catholic Church wholeheartedly agrees.

Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God. (2 Tim 1:8)

Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 2:3)

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:6-7)

But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. (1 Peter 4:13)

 

[japhy]

The doubt with which i am struggling is whether eternal life (and heaven itself) is one of the rewards or is a gift for which i can do nothing to merit or earn.

Eternal life is our inheritence from God our Father, if we are truly His children by being truly brothers and sisters of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. An inheritence is not “earned” or “merited” except through sonship; but to denounce sonship is to denounce the inheritence. Does this make sense to you?

Let me put it to you the way Jesus did, in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). The rash youth decides he wants to go his own way, and his father accepts his son’s decision and gives the boy his share of the property at that time. The son squanders away his property and wealth and eventually realizes he must return to his father, if only so that he can survive (cf. 15:17)! He decides he will say, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired servants." (15:18-19). Notice the son doesn’t even ask to be forgiven – just that he be treated as a servant. He does not consider himself worthy of an inheritence, just a laborer’s wage!

Does he get to say it all? No, his father cuts him off after "I am no longer worthy to be called your son" (cf. 15:21-22). What the son has just said is an admission of guilt (“I have sinned”), and an act of contrition and humility (“I am not worthy”). The boy’s father – who has already embraced and kissed him before the boy even spoke – knows the penitence of the boy and celebrates his return. His return from what? The father says "my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found" (15:24). Was the lost son, the dead son going to receive an inheritence if he remained dead and lost to his father? All the hoping in the world, on the father’s part, would not have brought his son back if the son had not actually returned.

And what does the son receive upon his return? Is it something the father would have given to a hired servant? No, the son receives a fine robe, a ring, shoes for his feet, a fatted calf, and a feast and celebration (cf. 15:22-23). This is part of the inheritence, part of the joys of sonship. Truly he did not “merit” or “earn” such gifts – this is attested to by the faithful son who feels cheated, because he did not receive such things. The father tells the faithful son "all that is mine is yours" (15:31), and so it is revealed that the gifts of the father are bestowed on his children as he wishes and not by any merit of their own.

What the son took with him when he left was not his proper inheritence. He returned to his inheritence only when he returned to the father. His real inheritence never disappeared, he was only disqualified from it.

 

[petra]

Having eternal life is very different from having life eternally.

Yes, it is!

 

[petra]

Hello Rocky!

Thanks for correcting my definition. It does help me better understand what Catholicism teaches. Will you quote one of these verses about enduring to the end so i can see it in context?

If you need help looking it up, you can use this Web site, choose the version of the Bible you like best, limit the search to the New Testament, and search for the word or phrase for which you are looking:

biblegateway.com/keyword/

These first 3 passages deal with the destruction of Jerusalem, but we can infer that the “salvation” identified is not temporal salvation from physical death–because many, many people did, in fact, die. Their eternal salvation depended upon enduring in the faith.

• Matthew 24:13 - But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• Mark 13:13 - You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• Luke 21:19 - By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Here are others:

• 2 Timothy 2:12 - If we endure, we will also reign with Him;If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
• 1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
• John 15 (entire chapter)

These represent a short list of scriptures dealing with the necessity to endure and remain (abide) in Christ in order to ultimately be saved in eternity. Enduring and remaining presupposes that we are authentically “in Christ” to begin with.

There are countless other scriptures that discuss the implications of neglecting charity and committing serious sin. These result in one’s not enduring or abiding in Christ.

petra

 

[guanophore]

What i think i would need to end the struggle are passages of Scripture that show a causal relationship between good works (or obedience to God) and salvation (or receiving the gift of eternal life).

I’m will start another discussion thread on the topic where i hope others will help me see what the truth really is. Finding the truth about this matter is perhaps the most important thing anyone can do, as it makes a difference in the person’s life not only for time but for eternity.

I think you will not find it, Socrates. It may be that you are doomed to eternal struggle! Such a relationship does not exist in Scripture, or in the teachings of Christ. Jesus taught that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. He further taught that a saving faith would demonstrate itself, by God’s grace, in obedience and good works. No matter how many threads you start, you will never find that you can earn your way to heaven by working your way there.

 

[guanophore]

Guano:

Sorry i took so long getting back to you. Work kept me away.

I’m assuming that when you use the pronoun it you are not refering to the words of our beloved Lord and Savior in the passage mentioned (namely, Matthew 28:18-20):

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Please notice that Jesus does not say whether it is a person becoming a disciple (or follower) of himself is what saves a person from hell, nor whether baptizing is what saves a person from hell, nor whether obeying everything he commands us is what saves a person from hell.

There are other passages where he does explicitly say what saves a person from hell. If he is saying these three are causes of salvation, it is unclear from his words and the context of Matthew 28. The passage is too vague to make such a determination.

Perhaps you can find another passage that is less vague?

I think I will have to leave that to you, Socrates,because it does not seem at all vague to me, so you must be using a different standard than I . It seems clear to me that Jesus taught salvation comes through faith in Himself, and that persons who have that faith,by grace, will demonstrate it through becoming disciples, obedient to all that He has commanded (including baptism).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Protestantism . Non-catholics are so Paul-oriented in scripture and IMHO and therefore non Christ-oriented in scripture.

This mind is so fixated on what Paul has to say about Salvation in general that the non-catholic subconsciously believes that St. Paul wrote 1st and 2nd Peter instead of St Peter.

…

Joey:

In response to your criticism that I am not Christ-oriented in my viewpoint, the passage about which i have asked you and others to explore the meaning is John 5:24. Are not the words of Christ words that are Christ-oriented?

In reply to your criticism that i should ignore the words of St. Paul and focus on the words of St. Peter, i’d like to suggest this: Please read 1 Peter and 2 Peter and tell me in which verses he mentions eternal life. If you will read his words carefully, you will see he does not mention this gift of God at all.

Embrace the grace, Joey.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This means that when we become children of God, we participate in the very life of God in Christ (i.e. santifying grace) and we have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What it does not mean is that this participation is absolutely secure for all Christians. There will be those who will fall away and lose this participation.

God Bless,
michael

Yes, there are Protestants i respect who teach the same, Mike.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, specifically, we are called to share in his suffering, which for us is manifested not only by dealing with the temptation of sin, but with persecution. Paul litters his epistles with the theme of suffering with Christ so as to share in Christ’s rejoicing; Peter’s letters contain the theme as well. …

Well said, Japhy. God did not promise to take all our troubles away, but he did promise to stay at our sides to take us through all of them.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

These first 3 passages deal with the destruction of Jerusalem, but we can infer that the “salvation” identified is not temporal salvation from physical death–because many, many people did, in fact, die. Their eternal salvation depended upon enduring in the faith.

• Matthew 24:13 - But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• Mark 13:13 - You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• Luke 21:19 - By your endurance you will gain your lives.
  …

Well, Rocky, St. Luke’s book of Acts tells of great numbers of Christians abandoning Jerusalem and Judea to flee the first great persecution. However, even if some were still left behind, it is worth noting that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, before the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem, he gave the people of the city one last chance to surrender. The general said that all who did so and laid down their weapons would be free to go. There was a good-sized group (although a minority) that did leave the city at that time and were spared the fate that Jesus previously prophesied would befall the city and the temple.

It is not impossible that all Christians would be spared physical death during the last Jewish-Roman war. However, even if you believe this to be an impossibility, i remind you of Jesus’ words: “With God, all things are possible.” Our beloved Father did lesser miracles for the Jewish people prior to the Roman occupation. I can imagine that he might, on this occasion in history, do no less for those who loved the his one and only Son. Jesus’ words, then, would be a bona fide fulfilled prophecy and would prove that he was correct when he said:

*“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” **(John 5:45-46)*When our precious Lord and Savior said this, he was speaking of Moses’ words in Deuteronomy 18:

*15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” **17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” *21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
In other words, the fact that Jesus predicted the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time is one of many proofs that the Father sent him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There were other predictions Jesus made as well that are proof the Father sent him. For example:

*Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” **(Matthew 24:1-2)*In the context in which Jesus made this prediction, it was as unlikely a prophesy to make as, lets say, someone predicting, prior to 9/11/2001, that the twin towers of the World Trade Center of NY City would fall on the same day. It was a prediction the enemies of our precious Lord and Savior used against him to have him crucified. Yet, it was a prediction that came true, nonetheless.

If Jesus could make such an impossible event in history as the destruction of the Jewish temple happen, i do not think him unable to make the other predictions come true by saving all true Christians from the fate of the Jewish-Roman war.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think I will have to leave that to you, Socrates,because it does not seem at all vague to me, so you must be using a different standard than I . It seems clear to me that Jesus taught salvation comes through faith in Himself, and that persons who have that faith,by grace, will demonstrate it through becoming disciples, obedient to all that He has commanded (including baptism).

Guano:

What would prove your point would be if Jesus added the words, “For, because they do these things, the Father will reward them with eternal life.” Please notice that Jesus does not mention eternal life, or heaven or salvation at all in the passage you quoted. How and when you and i receive eternal life, after all, is the subject of this discussion thread.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, there are Protestants i respect who teach the same, Mike.

Hi Socrates4Jesus! You said you wanted a “causal” relationship between the good works and the reception of eternal life. The good works that we do are ultimately the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit that dwells within the child of God. However, we are not automatons. These works are also an act of the will. The Christian does not automatically do good. He/she can resist the impulses of the Holy Spirit, hence sin.

Here are some verses that directly connect good works and the enjoyment of eternal life in the world to come:

Romans 2:6-7 (NIV)

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up

These verses are pretty clear.

God bless,
Michael

 

[JoeyWarren]

Joey:

In response to your criticism that I am not Christ-oriented in my viewpoint, the passage about which i have asked you and others to explore the meaning is John 5:24. Are not the words of Christ words that are Christ-oriented?

In reply to your criticism that i should ignore the words of St. Paul and focus on the words of St. Peter, i’d like to suggest this: Please read 1 Peter and 2 Peter and tell me in which verses he mentions eternal life. If you will read his words carefully, you will see he does not mention this gift of God at all.

Embrace the grace, Joey.

Let us revisit the post you made:

SocratesForJesus said: Thank you, Japhy. By “you will never fall” i’m thinking St. Paul is saying, “you will never sin”.

Look at what you wrote! I put the words in red for emphasis. You are so hung up on Paul, you have attributed a writing of Peter to Paul.

What did I post?

Protestantism . Non-catholics are so Paul-oriented in scripture and IMHO and therefore non Christ-oriented in scripture.

This mind is so fixated on what Paul has to say about Salvation in general that the non-catholic subconsciously believes that St. Paul wrote 1st and 2nd Peter instead of St Peter.

Patrick Madrid once stated on a Radio Show:

“On any given issue, A Catholic, if he knows better, will first look to what Jesus said, and the Light of Jesus’ words will illuminate what Paul said, whereas the non-catholic will first look to Paul to see what he says and then tries to shoe-horn what Jesus said”

If one want’s to know the truth in all it’s fullness, one must be Christ-centric scripturally instead of being Paul-centric scripturally.

You said:In reply to your criticism that i should ignore the words of St. Paul and focus on the words of St. Peter,

Where is it that I told you to ignore Paul and focus on Peter? Here you go again, you mind is telling you I said Peter because I am Catholic. I told you to focus more on “What Jesus Said”. Read the quote by Patrick Madrid.

What’s worse then beating a dead horse? Beating the wrong dead horse!

 

[guanophore]

I am curious to hear from you OSAS people on this passage:

2 Peter 2:19-3:1
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

It seems to me that they must have been saved, since they “escaped” through knowledge of Jesus. However, they went back. They knew the way of righteousnes, then abandoned it. Do you say that these people were never saved? How does one know the way of righteousness, then become overpowered? The predestination folks will tellme that they were destined for damnation. How can their last state be worse than the first? If they were created in the beginning to be damned?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi Socrates4Jesus! You said you wanted a “causal” relationship between the good works and the reception of eternal life. The good works that we do are ultimately the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit that dwells within the child of God. However, we are not automatons. These works are also an act of the will. The Christian does not automatically do good. He/she can resist the impulses of the Holy Spirit, hence sin. …

Michael:

Yes, i agree. I believe it was the early church fathter Irenaeus who stated that without feedom of will, love would be impossible. Since God desires that we love him freely, he made us capable of great evil, too. Hence, he refuted the argument that the existence of evil proves the Christian God does not exist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Here are some verses that directly connect good works and the enjoyment of eternal life in the world to come:

Romans 2:6-7 (NIV)

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

1 Timothy 6:18-19

**18Command them to do good, **to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up

These verses are pretty clear.

God bless,
Michael

Michael:

BTW, the name i chose for my confirmation is Michael. Good name, that!

The question my Roman Catholic philosophy teacher posed to me when i was at a state university in NY, i believe, appliesoes correlation mean causation?
When two events occur together, can we be sure that one causes the other? What we think to be a cause might actually be a consequence, or merely a correlation.

One example: An infant is given a stuffed animal. When it is handed to her and she touches it, the smoke alarm in the home goes off, frightening the baby and causing her to cry. Now, it was the smoke from the father’s cooking, not the toy, that caused the fire alarm to make such a loud and startling noise. However, whenever the stuffed animal is given to the child, she cries, as she remembers the even and fears the toy causes the sound. The infant, in this case, confuses correlation with causation. Yes, the two events did occur at the same time, but one (giving the toy to the infant) in no way caused the other (the fire alarm going off).

So, i have to be careful when i read Scripture not to make the same mistake of which the infant, in the example, is guilty of making. I must not insist, in my ignorance, that one event causes another just because that event occurs in close proximity of time with another.

With this in mind, Michael, will you ease my concern? Please explain why you believe good works are a cause of eternal life in any one of the three passages you mention? You can choose any one you like.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Michael:

BTW, the name i chose for my confirmation is Michael. Good name, that!

Were you confirmed this past Easter?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Where is it that I told you to ignore Paul and focus on Peter? Here you go again, you mind is telling you I said Peter because I am Catholic. I told you to focus more on “What Jesus Said”. Read the quote by Patrick Madrid.

What’s worse then beating a dead horse? Beating the wrong dead horse!

Well, sir knight, i must admit that it has been so long since our conversation that, like a pleasant dream that fades from memory soon after one awakes, i can not recall exactly what i heard.

Will you refresh my memory and repeat the question or premise you offered once again, or will you report me to PETA?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I am curious to hear from you OSAS people on this passage:

2 Peter 2:19-3:1
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

It seems to me that they must have been saved, since they “escaped” through knowledge of Jesus. However, they went back. They knew the way of righteousnes, then abandoned it. Do you say that these people were never saved? How does one know the way of righteousness, then become overpowered? The predestination folks will tellme that they were destined for damnation. How can their last state be worse than the first? If they were created in the beginning to be damned?

Guano:

I think the context of the passage you quote might prove helpful, for in the paragraph just prior to the one you mentioned St. Peter describes the type of person of whom he is writing:

*13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. *
Will you help me understand what you are trying to say? If so, please answer a few questions for me. The first is this:

Do you think people who voluntarily commit such sins as carousing in broad daylight, adultery and greed do so because they know they will suffer punishment in eternity for their actions, or do you think they commit these sins out of ignorance because they do not believe that God will judge them?