Has Eternal Life?

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Originally Posted by petra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

However, they do not preclude that a specific quality of eternal life can be experienced now. Scriptures and the Catechism support this.

It is both. We can have eternal life now, and it is also our future inheritance if we remain in Christ.
Ah, we find agreement. Yes, I agree with you now. The bolded part of your response clears things up for me, especially in light of 1 Tim 6:12 (Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.)

Amen, peace. I’ll include you all in my Night Prayers, which it is just about time for. Good night all.
What i think is happening, here, is that you, Japhy, were originally using a different definition of eternal life than Petra. The two definitions might be (and please help me correct the definitions if i don’t phrase them precisely):

Eternal Life =

(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.

(b) God himself.
I take it that you, Japhy, agree that the words can mean either (a) or (b) depending on the context in which they are used.

So, the question now before us is this: Which definition was Jesus using when he spoke these words?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
In other words, did God mean this?

(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Or did he mean this?

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
 
… Jesus said if you remain in my word and “anyone who does not remain in me” will be thrown into a fire. And if you remain in me and my words" also if you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love. Lots of ifs which are conditional upon us doing our part. Jesus did His part now it is up to us to do our part and keep His commandments and reamain in Him by avoiding the “sin that leads to death.”
So, Bishop, do you think Jesus meant (A) or (B)? (Please see my previous reply.)
 
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

(John 3:16)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

(John 3:36, NIV)

I’m glad to see you are searching for other passages that speak of the gift of eternal life. That might prove to help us understand what Jesus meant in John 5:24. Thank you, JW!

Tell me, please, how do you think either of these quotes of the Jesus we love explain at what point in time you or i receive eternal life (before or after we breath our last breath in this world)?
Eternal life is after death. At our death our name is either written in the Lambs Book of Life or it is not. We cannot know before hand. What we are to do is to strive for that ultimate goal which is to have our names in that book.

One has to understand the Primary Context, which is the “Context of the NT as a Whole” not bits and pieces to suit one’s own agenda or belief or conviction.

see next post for all the verses that contain “eternal life”
 
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
 
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

JUD 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
 
Eternal life is after death. At our death our name is either written in the Lambs Book of Life or it is not. We cannot know before hand. What we are to do is to strive for that ultimate goal which is to have our names in that book.

One has to understand the Primary Context, which is the “Context of the NT as a Whole” not bits and pieces to suit one’s own agenda or belief or conviction.

see next post for all the verses that contain “eternal life”
Interesting, Joey. I’d very much like to know how you would answer the question i asked the others. The question is this:

Which definition was Jesus using when he spoke these words?

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."In other words, did our Lord and Savior mean this?

(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” Or did he mean this?

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
I’m assuming you would say (A) is the true meaning of Jesus’ words in that passage?
 
Joey:

There are two definitions of eternal life we are considering, here:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.

or
(b) God himself.

Would you say most, if not all, of the passages you quoted above use definition (a)?
 
Salvation has already been completed in the past, is present in the now, and will occur in the future. For God, who is not trapped as we are in the space time continuum, these “times” are all part of one whole.
No, you have not been saved until you endure to the end…
I don’t think you understood my post Bishopite. Or, are you denying that salvation has occurrred, and is occurring?
 
Scripture is quite clear that one who has been born again has eternal life and cannot lose it. If someone falls away, they never had it to begin with…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, **if you hold fast the word **which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

You say that they were truly saved and then became lost.

1 John 2:19 NAS95 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

In Hebrews 6, God shows us a hypothetical situation of one falling away…

Hebrews 6:4-7 NAS95 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Which, by the way, shows that one that does fall away does not get renewed again then loses it, then is renewed again…scripture is clear that one that falls away falls away for good.

Anyway…He then says this after the above scripture passage…

Hebrews 6:8-9 NAS95 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. 9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Falling away is not characteristic of the elect…

Matthew 24:24 KJV 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

At the end of Hebrews 10, it speaks of those who fall away…

Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Scriptures speak of perseverance being an evidence of salvation/being one of the elect.

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 3:6 NAS95 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Notice the perseverance is given as evidence of salvation and not as a condition…and we know only those that persevere in faith purely by the grace of God are saved.

Colossians 1:22-23 NAS95 22 **yet He has now reconciled **you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Again - you have been reconciled if you hold fast…put this together with 1 Corinthians 15:1-2…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Notice - dead faith, no holding fast…real faith…you will hold fast.

I have eteranl life through my examination and am one of the elect. I am continuing to make certain of my calling and election (2 Peter 1:10) and fear God always. The elect will not be “elect” and then fall away…be justified then not be justified…be dead to the law - then alive to the law and back and forth and back and forth…you either are or you are not and all purely by the grace of God - not by your will or your own works. Take no credit…for He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and will pass over those whom He will pass over whereby they become hardened.

I have eternal life…

1 John 5:13 NAS95 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:19 NAS95 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
 
Scripture is quite clear that one who has been born again has eternal life and cannot lose it. If someone falls away, they never had it to begin with…

Which, by the way, shows that one that does fall away does not get renewed again then loses it, then is renewed again…scripture is clear that one that falls away falls away for good.

Falling away is not characteristic of the elect…

Scriptures speak of perseverance being an evidence of salvation/being one of the elect.
So what was the deal with Peter?
 
Salvation has already been completed in the past, is present in the now, and will occur in the future. For God, who is not trapped as we are in the space time continuum, these “times” are all part of one whole.

I don’t think you understood my post Bishopite. Or, are you denying that salvation has occurrred, and is occurring?
So you would agree then that salvation is a process? I believe that. I agree that salvation has occured, is occuring and will occur but I’m speaking about the individuals salvation process not just those “saved” past, present and those who will be in the future.
Abraham is the Scriptural model for one being justified over ones life not just a one time punctiliar moment only.
Also, since salvation has past present and future dimensions and since we aren’t obviously in the future do to time we aren’t there yet and one can fall into grave sin which by ones free will, therefore putting themself out of salvation.
 
Joey:

There are two definitions of eternal life we are considering, here:

Eternal Life =(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.

or
(b) God himself.

Would you say most, if not all, of the passages you quoted above use definition (a)?
I think not, Socrates. I think that eternal life cannot be found outside of God Himself, therefore, they are one and the same.
 
Hebrews 6:4-7 NAS95 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Which, by the way, shows that one that does fall away does not get renewed again then loses it, then is renewed again…scripture is clear that one that falls away falls away for good.
 
About Hebrews 6:4-7

“If he is speaking technically–offering the kind of absolute axiom that one would find in a systematic theology–then he would indeed mean that if you fall away from Christianity then you won’t repent afterwards. Your mind will be locked on evil such that you can’t (or won’t) change it, as happens with those in hell.
But normally the authors of Scripture are not speaking technically. That’s one of the reasons Scripture does not read like a systematic theology. You can’t approach a given passage with the assumption that it must be a set of exceptionless theological axioms. To do that is to commit what I’ve called the "technical statement fallacy."
Instead, you have to recognize the flexibility and partialness of the way the authors of Scripture express themselves, as well as the fact that they are often speaking in practical terms and may use expressions of speech that are hyperbolic.
That’s what I think is happening in this passage: The author of Hebrews isn’t making a technical statement about getting apostates to repent. He’s making a practical one, and in so doing he’s expressing himself somewhat hyperbolically.
He even signals this, after making the dramatic statement that you can’t get apostates to repent, by explaining the grounds for the assertion: They (the Jewish Christians who have gone back to Judaism) can’t be brought back to repentance because (a) they crucify Christ again to themselves (meaning: in their hearts) and (b) they openly put Christ to shame. What he means by this is that, after having been followers of Christ, they then turn their backs on him and say that he was a false Messiah who deserved what he got by being crucified (that’s how they crucify him “again . . . to themselves”) and they then start publicly condemning him in the Jewish community (that’s the putting him to an open shame).
The author then, in subsequent verses, goes on to compare such people to hardened ground that won’t soak up rain, conveying the idea that they are so hard of heart at this point that you won’t be able to bring them back to repentance and faith in Christ.
Bear in mind that we’re talking about the first century, when becoming a Christian could and did result in being put out of the synagogue, shunned in Jewish society, and basically divorced from your family. If someone has braved all that and tasted all of the heavenly gifts that being a Christian has to offer and still turned his back on Christ and gone back to Judaism, saying that Jesus deserved to be crucified and talking him down in the non-Christian Jewish community to prove their restored loyalty to it then–the author of Hebrews is saying–don’t waste your time on such people. Their hearts are too hard. You won’t–practically speaking–be able to get them to turn back to Christ if they’re really that hard of heart.
Incidentally, the “don’t waste your time on these people” aspect of the passage is also indicated by the way the chapter begins, which involves the author of Hebrews saying “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God” (6:1)–in other words, “Let’s not be detained by all of the basic, introductory elements of the Christian faith at this point. You’d have to explain a lot of this to ex-Christian Jews to lead them back to the faith, but it isn’t worth it practically speaking. You’d be better off focusing on the matters I want to move on to.”

Look at the way verses 1-3 hook up with verses 4-6
: The author isn’t introducing the subject of the hard hearted apostates as a subject on it’s own. It’s a justification for moving on in the discussion.
Of course, as Jesus told us, what is impossible with man is still possible with God, and so in his own way God can lead ex-Christians back to the faith–even very hard hearted ones. And human experience does show that apostates both can and do repent again and turn back to Christ, so we have evidence on that front as well that the author of Hebrews is speaking practically rather than technically. The long experience of twenty centuries shows that such reversions are possible, and the Church has recognized them and ministered God’s grace to such reverts by the sacrament of penance.”
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/a_reader_writes.html
 
Scripture is quite clear that one who has been born again has eternal life and cannot lose it. If someone falls away, they never had it to begin with…
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, **if you hold fast the word **
 
So, Bishop, do you think Jesus meant (A) or (B)? (Please see my previous reply.)
There are two definitions of eternal life we are considering, here:
Eternal Life =
(a) A state of existence that begins at a certain point in time but which has no end.

or

(b) God himself.
Are these the two to which you are referring?
 
So what was the deal with Peter?
He did not lose his salvation…HE WAS CHOSEN

John 13:17-19 KJV 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. *(Judas was not chosen)*19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

And therefore had the benefits of Christ praying for him…

Luke 22:31-32 NAS95 31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

This is the benefit of the elect…

Hebrews 7:25 NAS95 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

1 John 2:1 NAS95 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
 
Interesting, Joey. I’d very much like to know how you would answer the question i asked the others. The question is this:

Which definition was Jesus using when he spoke these words?

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."In other words, did our Lord and Savior mean this?

(A) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life as a future gift that he will begin living after death] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” Or did he mean this?

(B) “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has God himself] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” I’m assuming you would say (A) is the true meaning of Jesus’ words in that passage?
First, what Book, Chapter, and Verse are you quoting from and from which translation?

2nd what is “Eternal Lfie”? What is your definition of this term?
 
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