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Socrates4Jesus
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No, when i was young, at St. Anthony’s parish in Watertown, NY.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
BTW, Randy, i have a brother who lives in Raleigh, NC and notice that you state you are from the Diocese of Raleigh. Small world!
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japhy
Guest
I think the Scripture itself, by its very language, is showing causality:
To do something (render to a man) according to something else (his works) is causality. One thing accords to the other, there is a relationship, a cause and an effect. To those who seek glory and honor and immortality, God will render eternal life. This is not comparable to “to the baby who touches a stuffed animal, the smoke detector blaring”.
Again, he writes that they (speaking specifically of the materially rich in this case) are to also be rich in good works. Connected to this is the result that a good foundation is laid for them, so that they make receive eternal life.
Paul uses the reap-sow metaphor specifically because it is the de facto cause-and-effect scenario. “Plant a radish. Get a radish. Never any doubt. That’s why I love vegetables: you know what you’re about!”
Does this clear it up for you?
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japhy
Guest
How are we supposed to know for certain why a person – especially a Christian – sins? Is it because they decide that God doesn’t exist? Is it because they believe their “faith alone” will vindicate them? Is it because they don’t think a particular act is a sin? Is it because, just for a moment, the conditions and their environment got the better of them and they fell prey to Satan’s desires for them?
Why do you sin? Why do I sin? Why did Peter deny Christ? Why did Judas betray him? Why were the Pharisees hypocrites?
Instead of focusing on those questions, let’s return to the Scripture at hand and see the facts and answers written to us by Peter:
Ouch, that’s scathing, isn’t it? Not even the angels pronounce judgment on these wicked men! Perhaps that’s a lesson for us to learn? Anyway, moving on to the core of the passage:
This passage is talking about two groups of people, those who believe in Jesus Christ (men who have barely escaped from those who live in error, 2:18) and wicked men who entice them to sin (waterless springs and mists driven by a storm, 2:17). Of the first group, the believers, Peter says that they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2:20). But then he says if … they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first (2:20). One is entangled again only if one has been entangled once and then disentangled and then entangled following their rescue. This entanglement is the grip of Satan, sin; the rescuer is Jesus Christ.
Finally, he says it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them (2:21). Maybe, in the back of their minds, these men who fall away from the salvation offered to them by Jesus Christ know they have cast off the joy of Christians in eternity for the punishment they have accepted upon themselves, but they prefer the temporal pleasures of sin to the current tribulations and hardships of Christianity.
Peter makes no mistake: people can have knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which leads to their rescue, with the result that they have escaped the defilements of the world, and then fall away and be ***again entangled ***. Peter does not say they never were “actually” rescued, or never “actually” escaped the world, or never “actually” knew Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
In fact, if you want to take the hardline Protestant approach here, since Peter is talking about those who come to knowledge of Jesus Christ but have barely escaped from those who live in error, you could argue that the only Christians who “remain saved” are the ones who weren’t heavy sinners in the first place.
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guanophore
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The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in the saving work that Jesus did for us on the cross. This faith is a faith that “works” in the sense that saving faith is a faith that is obedient to Christ, and opens a person up to the ongoing working of the Holy Spirit, which produces good works in our lives. It is impossible to “earn” one’s way into heaven, however, the good works that we do, once we are saved by faith, bring merit to God, to others, and to ourselves because they are fruit produced in holiness to glorify God.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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guanophore
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I think the latter, they are faithless, and think they have impugnity. This passage begins being addressed to the faithful, and warns that “false teachers will arise from among you”. These people seem to be chosen, part of the called out ones that fall away from grace.
2 Peter 2:1
2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even
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mikeledes
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So your confirmation name is Michael! In my unbiased opinion, Michael is the best name out there. 
In order to undertand eternal life, Socrates4Jesus, you must understand that Catholic theology and the Bible uses “eternal life” in a present and future tense. In everyday parlance, Catholics tend to use eternal life primarily in its future tense and that can lead to a lot of confusion when talking to Protestants.
Read this interesting article by a Catholic on eternal security:
ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp
Here is an interesting quote from that article that touches on eternal life:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
But this consummation of our present participation in the life of God in Christ through grace is promised to those of the justified who persevere in doing good:
John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Romans 2:6-8
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
This perseverance is rooted in the spiritual gifts freely given to those in Christ (i.e. grace, the Holy Spirit, faith, love). But we must cooperate with these gifts in order for perseverance to occur. Without persverance, final salvation is not possible. Christ Himself said that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
God bless,
Michael
In order to undertand eternal life, Socrates4Jesus, you must understand that Catholic theology and the Bible uses “eternal life” in a present and future tense. In everyday parlance, Catholics tend to use eternal life primarily in its future tense and that can lead to a lot of confusion when talking to Protestants.
Read this interesting article by a Catholic on eternal security:
ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp
Here is an interesting quote from that article that touches on eternal life:
Through sanctifying grace we presently partcipate in the life of God that is in Christ. This life, being the very life of God, is eternal and hence eternal life. However, we will enjoy this life in its fullest degree on the other side of glory. That is why the other side of glory or the afterlife is often referrefd to as eternal life:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
But this consummation of our present participation in the life of God in Christ through grace is promised to those of the justified who persevere in doing good:
John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Romans 2:6-8
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
This perseverance is rooted in the spiritual gifts freely given to those in Christ (i.e. grace, the Holy Spirit, faith, love). But we must cooperate with these gifts in order for perseverance to occur. Without persverance, final salvation is not possible. Christ Himself said that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
God bless,
Michael
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Socrates4Jesus
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I’d like to explore the passages you mention, one at a time, to see if they mean what you say they mean. I hope you will be kind enough to be patient with me in answering my questions.
If not you, then perhaps someone else will sit by my side and show me the truth i do not see. No one finds it easy to admit that he is wrong, including myself. Yet if i am wrong, the only right thing to do is to shed the lie in which i have wrapped myself and cover myself with the truth.
Have you ever been drastically wrong before, Japhy? If so, perhaps you might understand how i might feel, if indeed what you say is true.
That being said, lets take a look at the first passage you cite:
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
(Romans 2:1-11)
My first question is:
What did St. Paul meant by the words, “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?”
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Randy_Carson
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Indeed!
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yeah, college town and he never went to college. Works as a cook by day and plays in a rock band at night.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, Michael, i have learned just that in this discussion thread. And please, call me S4J or simply Soc.
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Socrates4Jesus
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The question to ask is what makes a person righteous? Is it what we do for Christ with the help of His power, or is it what He did for us?
The answer to this question i am currently seeking in another discussion thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=146385 .
I would very much like it if you would join that discussion.
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Socrates4Jesus
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The question to ask, in this case, is this: Does Jesus resurrect people because they did good things, or did they do good things because Jesus would resurrect them? It is a question i explored in another discussion thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=142159
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Socrates4Jesus
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Michael:
I think this passage troubles me the most, like a piece of a puzzle that does not fit, only the puzzle i am piecing together is the way to heaven, so the consequences are grave if i am mistaken. I suppose this is the passage i should seek to understand, though the truth might not be easy to take. Would you like to explore the meaning or Romans, chapter 2 with me?
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japhy
Guest
Well, let’s look at the part that comes before the “or”. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
Here’s how the RSV renders it: Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Either way, it seems to me Paul is saying in verse 3, “When you pass judgment on a person, though you yourself commit the same sin, do you think God will not also pass judgment on you?” In other words, by judging (and condemning) one another, we are calling God’s judgment upon ourselves. Then he continues in verse 4, “Are you taking God’s kindness, forbearance, and patience for granted? Don’t you realize that God’s kindness should inspire repentence?” In other words, stop sinning. Yes, God forgives a contrite sinner, but that forgiveness should drive you to repent from your sin. God’s forgiveness should change you; you should become less and less of a sinner, not a sinner who presumes that God will “cover him”.
Isn’t that tough to hear? That God, in His mercy, expects us to change? To respond to His mercy and repent and change our ways? I thought Jesus took care of that, once and for all, on Calvary! Gee, this sounds like a “works salvation”, because it requires something of us!
But didn’t Jesus require that of the adulterous woman (cf. John 8:2-11)? Didn’t the master expect the pity he showed on his servant to be reflected in that servant’s attitude towards his servants (cf. Matthew 18:21-35)?
Maybe it’s not a “works salvation”, maybe it’s a “work with God salvation”. Maybe this awe and respect for God’s kindness (in contrast to the “contempt” spoken of in the translation you provided) is what Paul meant when he said we are to work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). Jesus did not come to condemn but to save (cf. John 3:17). Jesus, in his life, death, and resurrection, opened the door of grace to us: we, though sinners, have been redeemed by Jesus, giving us the opportunity to die to sin and live for God. But this requires us to die to sin, to forsake it, to cling to Jesus. It’s hard to do, but not impossible with God; we need to call on Him and pray for the strength to persevere constantly.
Jesus came for sinners; he is the doctor, we are the sick (cf. Mark 2:17). For me, the healing involves weekly – or daily – transfusions of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which builds up a spring in me to eternal life (cf. John 4:14).
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, i do believe that Christians are not sinless, but they do sin less and less. I suppose my next question is what is repentance? Is it a change of action, or a change of mind, or both, or something else?
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Socrates4Jesus
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I must go, Japhy, but i hope we will continue this conversation later.
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japhy
Guest
Repent: μετάνοια (to think differently after), שוב (to return), נחם (to feel sorrow).
It’s not just to change your mind, or change your heart, or choose X over Y. It’s to choose God instead of you. It’s to return to God, our origin, our source. Repentence brings to light our total reliance on God, that He might effect that change in us (true repentence) through His grace.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, it’s making a complete commitment, something like marriage where the couple pledge to stick together through thick and thin till death separates them. I agree.
Japhy, you define repentance as thinking differently, feeling sorrow and returning to God. Are these all things that occur within a person’s thoughts and are then followed by a change of behavior in that person’s words and deeds?
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guanophore
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Have you visited the thread on “works” salvation? You can see there a very clear distinction between the protestant and Catholic positions on this question.
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