Has Eternal Life?

[japhy]

Japhy, you define repentance as thinking differently, feeling sorrow and returning to God. Are these all things that occur within a person’s thoughts and are then followed by a change of behavior in that person’s words and deeds?

Are you veiling one question with another? The change in your life follows the change in your entire being: it is all repentance. True repentance involves sorrow for the sins committed, seeks to right the wrongs, and a turning of the whole person to God (cf. Luke 19:1-10). We can’t be repentant without there being Someone to forgive the sins, therefore our repentance depends on God.

Repentance is not something that happens once, prior to accepting Jesus and receiving baptism (cf. Acts 2:37-39). Repentance is commanded also of those who already believe in God, Jews and Christians alike (cf. Jer 31:39; Rev 2:5,16; Rev 3:3,19). Any time a Christian sins he needs to repent, lest he presume upon the kindness of God, because His kindness is meant to lead to repentance (cf. Romans 2:4). I think Christians are always in a state of repentance – we are a penitent people. We can never be forgetful of the mercy of God, we must always petition Him for forgiveness and the grace to avoid sin, and we must not take that gift in vain.

And since you’re so picky about your name, allow me to be picky about mine. “japhy” doesn’t have a capital letter in it. If this means you must break the rules of grammar when it appears at the beginning of a sentence, too bad!

 

[mikeledes]

The question to ask is what makes a person righteous? Is it what we do for Christ with the help of His power, or is it what He did for us?

The answer to this question i am currently seeking in another discussion thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=146385 .
I would very much like it if you would join that discussion.

We are freely made righteous by God’s grace. In other words, there is nothing I can do to change myself from unrighteous to righteous before God. If we could, then the we would not need the Cross of Christ. Our own merits would be sufficient. However, once we are made righteous in Christ, we receive a call to live in righteousness. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live up to that call. Failure to live up to this call by perseverance in living righyeously will result in loss of grace. So, we do not live righteously in order to be made righteous before God. Rather, we are made righteous in order to live righteously.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The question to ask, in this case, is this: Does Jesus resurrect people because they did good things, or did they do good things because Jesus would resurrect them? It is a question i explored in another discussion thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=142159

Interesting question! Here are a couple of links that may help:

home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/grace2.html

thiscatholicjourney.com/2006/11/salvation-through-good-works.html

Possession of eternal life (i.e sanctifying grace) in this life must precede the works that we do. However, we must persevere in cooperating with this gift - by faith working through love - until the end in order to enjoy eternal life in its fullest degree in the world to come. I’m not sure if I answered your question - I hope I at least answered it in part - but I’ll think about it and do a little more research.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Michael:

I think this passage troubles me the most, like a piece of a puzzle that does not fit, only the puzzle i am piecing together is the way to heaven, so the consequences are grave if i am mistaken. I suppose this is the passage i should seek to understand, though the truth might not be easy to take. Would you like to explore the meaning or Romans, chapter 2 with me?

Sure! Where do we start?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Are you veiling one question with another? The change in your life follows the change in your entire being: it is all repentance. True repentance involves sorrow for the sins committed, seeks to right the wrongs, and a turning of the whole person to God (cf. Luke 19:1-10). We can’t be repentant without there being Someone to forgive the sins, therefore our repentance depends on God.

Repentance is not something that happens once, prior to accepting Jesus and receiving baptism (cf. Acts 2:37-39). Repentance is commanded also of those who already believe in God, Jews and Christians alike (cf. Jer 31:39; Rev 2:5,16; Rev 3:3,19). Any time a Christian sins he needs to repent, lest he presume upon the kindness of God, because His kindness is meant to lead to repentance (cf. Romans 2:4). I think Christians are always in a state of repentance – we are a penitent people. We can never be forgetful of the mercy of God, we must always petition Him for forgiveness and the grace to avoid sin, and we must not take that gift in vain.

And since you’re so picky about your name, allow me to be picky about mine. “japhy” doesn’t have a capital letter in it. If this means you must break the rules of grammar when it appears at the beginning of a sentence, too bad!

japhy:

I’m not picky about my name. You can call me Socrates4Jesus, or you can save yourself some typing and call me S4J, or you can call me Soc, or you can call me SOB, it’s all the same to me!

If you do not want to answer my questions, please let me know and i will not bother you any longer. I’m sure someone else will be kind enough to answer them.

If you do not mind answering my questions, please answer this: Do you think that a cause of something is the same as the thing it causes? or is a cause always different from its effect?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sure! Where do we start?

God Bless,
Michael

Well, japhy already started, Mike. However, i would very much like you to join in the conversation. Feel free to give your answers to the questions i am asking japhy.

 

[japhy]

If you do not want to answer my questions, please let me know and i will not bother you any longer. I’m sure someone else will be kind enough to answer them.

I didn’t say anything to that effect. It’s just that you seem to be going from question to question without a flight-plan.

If you do not mind answering my questions, please answer this: Do you think that a cause of something is the same as the thing it causes? or is a cause always different from its effect?

Causes and effects can be different, or they can be of the same kind (a negative feedback loop). Where are you going with this?

 

[guanophore]

Japhy, you define repentance as thinking differently, feeling sorrow and returning to God. Are these all things that occur within a person’s thoughts and are then followed by a change of behavior in that person’s words and deeds?

Where, in your “formula” of what it is to be human, is the heart? Attitudes, beliefs? Values? Feelings? Are all these “mental” to you, or is there any other source of motivation within man?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote by Soc:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
If you do not mind answering my questions, please answer this: Do you think that a cause of something is the same as the thing it causes? or is a cause always different from its effect?

Causes and effects can be different, or they can be of the same kind (a negative feedback loop). Where are you going with this?

Yes, and i would make a stronger assertions that causes not only can but always are different from the effects they bring about. Consider this example:

1. 
   *]A mean kid sticks a needle into a balloon.
   *]The balloon pops.
   *]The popping balloon makes a loud noise.
   *]The loud noise wakes the kid’s sleeping infant sister.
   *]The baby cries.
   *]The mother picks up her infant daughter and comforts her.
   *]The infant stops crying.
   *]The boy is sent to be early by his father and all of his balloons are taken away.
   In each step in this series of events (except the first) the step prior to it is the cause of it. In each case the cause is not the same as the affect. The needle is not the popping balloon, the loud noise is not the baby waking up, and the mother picking up her daughter is not her daughter’s lack of crying.
   
   As you implied and i clarified, a cause is never an effect. The cause of a consequence is never the consequence itself, neither is the consequence the same as its cause. The reason for a result is never the same as that result.

 

[crocetta]

There is a website about House of Virgin Mary where also Popes have made pilgramige. I highly recommend you.
www.traveltofaith.com

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There is a website about House of Virgin Mary where also Popes have made pilgramige. I highly recommend you.
www.traveltofaith.com

Thank you, Crocetta, but the topic of discussion, at the moment, is not about St. Mary.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I didn’t say anything to that effect. It’s just that you seem to be going from question to question without a flight-plan.
…

I can understand how you might become lost in the discussion (being absent minded, i often do the same, on occasion)! Here is the “flight plan” of the moment: I am exploring the meaning of Romans 2:

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. (Romans 2:1-11)Understanding the meaning of the passage is important to me, personally, as it appears to contradict what i believe to be true. Like Socrates, i want to examine every assumed truth i have to see whether what i believe actually is true. If the rational thought of others and the Bible shows me some flaw, as a mirror might show me i have a piece of pie on my cheek, i will remove the falsehood and replace it with the truth i have found.

To begin to understand the meaning of Romans 2, i’ve started by asking questions about verse 4:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? So, i asked for you and others to explain what the word repentance in this verse means. Your answer was this:

Repent: μετάνοια (to think differently after), שוב (to return), נחם (to feel sorrow).You also said this:

Either way, it seems to me Paul is saying in verse 3, “When you pass judgment on a person, though you yourself commit the same sin, do you think God will not also pass judgment on you?” In other words, by judging (and condemning) one another, we are calling God’s judgment upon ourselves. Then he continues in verse 4, “Are you taking God’s kindness, forbearance, and patience for granted? Don’t you realize that God’s kindness should inspire repentance?” In other words, stop sinning. Yes, God forgives a contrite sinner, but that forgiveness should drive you to repent from your sin. God’s forgiveness should change you; you should become less and less of a sinner, not a sinner who presumes that God will “cover him”.So the next course this pilot will take is to ask this: Do you think a man’s thoughts are what determines his actions?

(I trust you will not take the only parachute on board and jump out the door leaving me with my question unanswered!)

 

[japhy]

Understanding the meaning of the passage is important to me, personally, as it appears to contradict what i believe to be true.
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
So, i asked for you and others to explain what the word repentance in this verse means. Your answer was this:
Repent: μετάνοια (to think differently after), שוב (to return), נחם (to feel sorrow).
You also said this:
Either way, it seems to me Paul is saying in verse 3, “When you pass judgment on a person, though you yourself commit the same sin, do you think God will not also pass judgment on you?” In other words, by judging (and condemning) one another, we are calling God’s judgment upon ourselves. Then he continues in verse 4, “Are you taking God’s kindness, forbearance, and patience for granted? Don’t you realize that God’s kindness should inspire repentance?” In other words, stop sinning. Yes, God forgives a contrite sinner, but that forgiveness should drive you to repent from your sin. God’s forgiveness should change you; you should become less and less of a sinner, not a sinner who presumes that God will “cover him”.
So the next course this pilot will take is to ask this: Do you think a man’s thoughts are what determines his actions?

Some things I do without actively thinking of them – like breathing – and other things I do because I have explicitly thought to do them – like play chess (poorly).

Are you asking how a sinner – a man with sinful thoughts – could possibly think of asking for forgiveness and repenting (on his own)? He doesn’t, he does so by the grace of God.

How do you interpret Romans 2:4? Or, do you think God’s kindness is not meant to inspire repentance in us? What do you think repentance means in that context?

I don’t mean to flood you with questions, but I’m trying to get a better understanding of where you stand with this Scripture.

 

[mikeledes]

Soc, what do you believe to be true? I’m a little confused.

I would argue that repentance begins in the “heart” and manifests itself in a person’s actions. Here is a quote from the Catholic encyclopedia on repentance (a.k.a penance).

Penance here is a supernatural moral virtue whereby the sinner is disposed to hatred of his sin as an offence against God and to a firm purpose of amendment and satisfaction. The principal act in the exercise of this virtue is the detestation of sin, not of sin in general nor of that which others commit, but of one’s own sin. The motive of this detestation is that sin offends God: to regret evil deeds on account of the mental or physical suffering the social loss, or the action of human justice which they entail, is natural; but such sorrow does not suffice for penance. On the other hand, the resolve to amend, while certainly necessary, is not sufficient of itself, i.e., without hatred for sin already committed; such a resolve, in fact, would be meaningless; it would profess obedience to God’s law in the future while disregarding the claims of God’s justice in the matter of past transgression. “Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities. . . . Cast away from you all your transgressions . . . and make to yourselves a new heart, and a new spirit” (Ezekiel 18:30-31; cf. Joel, 2:12; Jeremiah 8:6). In the same spirit St. John the Baptist exhorts his hearers: “Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance” (Matthew 3:8). Such too is the teaching of Christ as expressed in the parables of the Prodigal Son and of the Publican; while the Magdalen who “washed out her sins with her tears” of sorrow, has been for all ages the type of the repentant sinner.

Repentance is a response to God’s grace. No prevenient grace, no repentance.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Soc, I will not be online for the weekend. But I’ll answer any questions as soon as possible. I’ll keep you in my prayers

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Are you asking how a sinner – a man with sinful thoughts – could possibly think of asking for forgiveness and repenting (on his own)? He doesn’t, he does so by the grace of God.

How do you interpret Romans 2:4? Or, do you think God’s kindness is not meant to inspire repentance in us? What do you think repentance means in that context?

I don’t mean to flood you with questions, but I’m trying to get a better understanding of where you stand with this Scripture.

japhy:

I think you might be conditioned to Protestants parachuting in like Airborne Rangers looking for a fight. That’s not what i’m about. I’m here, believe it or not, seriously considering what YOU believe. My philosophy is like that of Socrates, who said he is not a dogmatist, rather, he is a seeker of truth:

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this - that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.- Socrates (Phaedo)
My questions are not designed to teach you a thing or two; they are designed to teach me about you (what you believe and why you believe it) and to determine whether what you say is true. This is not a debate; it’s a meeting of minds. As Socrates said to Protagoras, i want you to “open your mind to me” so i may see what you see.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Some things I do without actively thinking of them – like breathing – and other things I do because I have explicitly thought to do them – like play chess (poorly). …

Yes, i’m speaking of making moral decisions, such as deciding whether to sin or not, and not about involuntary actions such as breathing or the beating of your heart. By actions, i mean what you and i say or do.

Now, the word determine means to cause. So when you agree that your thoughts determine your actions, you are agree that your thoughts cause your actions. This i also agree is true.

Moreover, your definition of repentance is this:

*Repent: μετάνοια (to think differently after), שוב (to return), נחם (to feel sorrow).*So, you are saying that repentance is, in essence, thought, for repent means “to think differently” and “to feel sorrow” and “to return” which are all mental activities.

My next question, japhy, which i hope you will be patient enough to answer, is this: Can a cause be the same as its effect? or is the thing that is caused always different from that which causes it?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc, I will not be online for the weekend. But I’ll answer any questions as soon as possible. I’ll keep you in my prayers

God Bless,
Michael

Thank you, Mike, i sure need your prayers!

I’m looking forward to talking with you later.

 

[japhy]

*Repent: μετάνοια (to think differently after), שוב (to return), נחם (to feel sorrow).*So, you are saying that repentance is, in essence, thought, for repent means “to think differently” and “to feel sorrow” and “to return” which are all mental activities.

My next question, japhy, which i hope you will be patient enough to answer, is this: Can a cause be the same as its effect? or is the thing that is caused always different from that which causes it?

A cause and its effect are two distinct things. Therefore, repentence can’t be its own effect (which I assume is where you were next headed).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

A cause and its effect are two distinct things. Therefore, repentance can’t be its own effect (which I assume is where you were next headed).

By saying, “Therefore, repentance can’t be its own effect” if you meant that i was going to ask whether the good things we do are not repentance but our responses to repentance, then yes, that is what i was going to ask. So when St. Paul writes

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? (Romans 2:4)what he is not telling us to do is to stop sinning, because, as you appear to agree, a cause cannot possibly be the same as its effect. So, repentance (which is a change in our attitude) cannot possibly be the same as the change in our behavior.

Hence, St. Paul is not saying (at lease in verse 4) that you and i should change our behavior, because this is not, as we have discovered, what repentance in fact is. Rather, St. Paul is saying, in this verse, that we should change our attitude. Of course, as you pointed out, this is not a one-time or temporary change of mind to which he is calling you and i; it is, like a decision to get married, a life-time, continuous change of attitude.

Would you agree?