Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[ConstantLearner]

Why? Why isn’t it helpful to the women who are being harassed now by those exact same people to come forward and say, he did X, Y and Z 10, 20 or 30 years ago?

Because most people don’t believe them for one second. Then they lump the whole #MeToo movement into “liars.” The movement is shooting itself in the foot.

 

[Xantippe]

Men who are sexually harassing right now should be confronted, but women who come forward 10 20, 30 years after-the-fact should keep silent. They are hurting the movement more than helping it. Pretty soon no one will believe any woman, even one who is out-and-out raped. Even our president is defending several serial sexual harassers. That might be because he’s a sexual harasser himself, by his own admission. I believe Bill Cosby, for example, harassed and inappropriately touched women, but I do not believe all the women who say he did. And some kept silent just to save their jobs. That is not right.

–There’s no “Even our president” here, as he has a very strong record of standing by various creeps, not to mention of engaging in various creepy behaviors and bragging about it.
–It’s quite possible that any particular accusation is false when there is a large number of accusations against an individual, but as I’m sure you would agree the odds are very, very low of them all being false.
–Why is it terribly wicked to keep quiet about assault against oneself to save one’s job? That is victim blaming.

 

[Elizabeth3]

Of course rape has nothing to do with friendly touches, although some of the posters seem to equate rape with friendly touching.

Friendly touches don’t have anything to do with rape, but they do have something to do with possible grooming which seeks to develop a certain level of trust in order to escalate the behavior at a later time and then be able to confuse the victim by bringing up how they never complained about being touched before. Of course, how easily this is done depends on the naivete and age of the victim, which a lot of rape-y types seek out to begin with.

 

[Xantippe]

Because most people don’t believe them for one second. Then they lump the whole #MeToo movement into “liars.” The movement is shooting itself in the foot.

Cite?

When half a dozen people say the same thing about events 10, 20 or 30 years ago, I think they have to be given weight.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s another problem:

Conservative (often conservative religious) people who say a) men have no control over their sexuality and b) men need to be in charge of everything.

It works if you alter either term. If men have control over their sexuality, it’s less crazy for them to be in charge of everything. Or if men aren’t in charge of everything, it’s less crazy to say that they have no control over their sexuality. But combining those two things (men have no control and men need to be in charge) is crazypants.

 

[F_Marturana]

Yes.

It isn’t as if the Church didn’t have something similar happen where old accusations came forward.

Shanley and Goeghan are just two criminal convictions I can recall.

 

[ConstantLearner]

This thread could go on forever.

We’ll just have to see what the future brings. I don’t believe men should harass women or women should harass men. Either that will stop or we’ll revert to ignoring it. As I said, we will see. I do think the #MeToo movement will die down.

I don’t believe a lot of the people because many people just want to be a part of something. I’ve known people who lied about being in New York on 9/11. I’ve known people who lied about being in various protests and marches.

Isn’t Bill Cosby’s next trial in March? I thought it was. We’ll see what happens with that. I think that will be some indication of the way this country is headed.

 

[Elizabeth3]

Conservative (often conservative religious) people who say a) men have no control over their sexuality and b) men need to be in charge of everything.

Although by how things often are poorly worded, it CAN seem like religious conservatives are saying men have no control, but I think we can all agree that it’s not a secret that the area of sexuality can generally be a weakness for men. What I think often gets miscommunicated is that when addressing women about this, it’s not often clear that

1. A tendency towards a weakness doesn’t mean the person should be given a pass for it or has no responsibility of their own for self-discipline.
2. A tendency towards a weakness doesn’t mean that it can’t be overcome.
3. Women are not soley responsible for keeping men from sinning.

Having said that, women have to deal with the reality of this tendency in men.

1. By learning that it’s uncharitable to lead others into temptation or contribute to their spiritual ruin. This is a key tenet of the Christian faith and the teaching can’t be denied.
2. By speaking out and enthusiastically (there’s that word.lol) supporting any program (spiritual or otherwise) that can strengthen men and help them see they CAN overcome this general weakness of their sex, especially if they are one of the ones who are particularly weak in this area. It’s all on a spectrum as are many issues like this.
3. Women do need to acknowledge that the fact is that there are still many men walking around in society who haven’t reached a certain level of self-discipline in this area, whether they are trying to or have no interest in trying to, and they should be prudent in the decisions they make, so as to protect themselves.

 

[F_Marturana]

I don’t believe a lot of the people because many people just want to be a part of something. I’ve known people who lied about being in New York on 9/11. I’ve known people who lied about being in various protests and marches.

Of course any tragedy will bring forth a con artist or two. How many Czarina Anastasias came forward over the years?

But I think when many people tell the same personal story, the likelihood is that most are telling the truth.

The minority might be seeking attention.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course any tragedy will bring forth a con artist or two. How many Czarina Anastasias came forward over the years?

But I think when many people tell the same personal story, the likelihood is that most are telling the truth.

The minority might be seeking attention.

Right. Individual people lie about Woodstock or being Vietnam War veterans, both both Woodstock and Vietnam actually happened.

 

[Xantippe]

I also think that character is largely consistent. Truthful people tell the truth and liars lie.

Consider, for example, CAF. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that 10% of personal stories told on CAF are lies. This doesn’t meant that 10% of posts by each individual poster are lies, but (more probably) that there is a minority of posters who each tells a lot of whoppers. And eventually, they tell one too many and people start wondering about their other stories.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I’m trying to catch up on posts that I missed. Here’s a link to a a real life story:

An Unbelievable Story of Rape

An 18-year-old said she was attacked at knifepoint. Then she said she made it up. That’s where our story begins.

www.themarshallproject.org

It’s from 2009 but I heard it on NPR a while back.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s from 2009 but I heard it on NPR a while back.

Somebody mentioned the book version of the story upthread, but this is very detailed.

I strongly suggest that SST read it, if he’s still planning on going into law endorcement. It’s a story of bad and good police work.

 

[Theo520]

You said the way a woman dresses can be an invitation to harass. That’s blaming the victim.

Don’t you think the way a woman dresses can be a non-verbal cue that will increase flirts and contacts from males? I think it’s a very predicable consequence.

Some see it a ego enriching, which is probably why they do it. Others can see the increased contact as harassment.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Well as someone once said, “It’s only harassment if you are ugly.”. That should clue you in to the real purpose behind the attempts to change both laws and mores.

 

[F_Marturana]

That story was very frightening. Poor woman. That’s a nightmare scenario.

 

[Xantippe]

Well as someone once said, “It’s only harassment if you are ugly.”. That should clue you in to the real purpose behind the attempts to change both laws and mores.

…and have poor social skills and can’t tell what attention is welcome and what attention is unwelcome.

 

[DarkLight]

I think the fundamental societal problem is treating sex like a competition. As long as you have a framework where men are the ones who want sex and women don’t, and men are supposed to find a way to get the woman to give in, you’re going to have problems. I think that mentality is where a lot of the opposition to the idea of enthusiastic consent comes in - if you have a framework where men by default want sex, and women by default don’t want sex, of course enthusiastic consent doesn’t make any sense. The woman in that framework is expected to be reluctant and it’s the guy’s job to get past the fact that she doesn’t want to. (I should mention this is also often a major problem for male rape victims - if the default is seen as “men want sex no matter what”, people won’t believe that a man could be raped, or even harassed, by a woman.)

 

[SuperLuigi]

If anything, the feminists I’m around are far more trusting of men than any conservative or traditionalist I’ve met. The difference was the feminists treated it as bad behavior some men engage in; the traditionalists treated it as the natural state of the male sex.

@Xantippe @Elf01

The 3rd-wave feminists will knife you in the back when all is said and done–maybe before. They are not your ally here.

We may disagree on certain things, but that’s something I’d NEVER to do to any of you. Nor I am here to tell you that if you don’t dress a certain way that you “deserve whatever you get” or that you need to sweat to death in sweats just because someone else can’t control him or herself.

 

[Lea101]

She’s right though. The people that have been constantly telling me that I could be a potential rape victim are my overly conservative father and uncles. The men who would rather eat their arm off than to imagine a world where I don’t have to ask my husband for permission to dye my hair.