Has the #Metoo movement made men more unsure how to relate with women?

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The worry in those situations is, unless he knows in advance that there won’t be consequences, he might say yes. That’s why a lot of workplaces place a blanket ban on sexual advances on subordinates. The power differential is such that people will feel pressured to say yes because of fear of consequences.
 
I think he looked a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing. And he may have felt that he had to “go along with it,” though I wish he too had just refused her offer.
I think she looked a little pushy and like she was trying to make it about herself at his expense.

Imagine if a man had acted the same way with a young woman.
 
If you haven’t heard of #metoo, which has been in the mainstream news, not tabloids, for more than a year, you probably need to pay more attention to current events…
 
Rozellelily said:
Personally I think it would be harrasment in the case of if he refused the kiss and then she said no to the audition due to feeling offended (as opposed to talent factors) as this is an abuse of power.
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I think it was irresponsible to make him have to choose before he gave his performance. Legally, it wouldn’t amount to harassment or abuse of power, but if he had made a bit stink about it publicly afterwards about how he felt pressured to agree to it because she was in a position to judge his performance, or that because he was caught off guard it affected his ability to perform well, or because she sort of forced a kiss on the lips when he was going for her cheek, she could have found herself fired due to the controversy and bad publicity. They would have no argument against any of the things he could have accused her of because any one of those accusations would be true as far as the position he was put in.

She may not have thought about it that way when she offered because in her mind, she’s Katy Perry, what guy wouldn’t want to brag that she was his first kiss? But from his perspective, it would have been difficult to find a way to say “No, thanks” and not risk her giving him a “no” due to sour grapes. He had no time to think about it and there were other guys there watching the whole thing. To me, he seemed quite uncomfortable. He shouldn’t have had to make that choice. If the sexes were reversed, that would have been the case. It’s not the sex of the person in each position that matters so much as what the person in power (man or woman) does as far as compromising the other person’s ability to freely consent. If there is any concern about how the other person will judge your performance without bias if you refuse then your free consent has been compromised.

Also, perhaps he would have preferred his first kiss to be more meaningful than that.
 
TheAmazingGrace said:
Sexual harassment has been around for as long as humans have. It’s not some special byproduct of the sexual revolution or whatever.
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If you look at the book of Ruth, Boaz made special arrangements to keep his workmen from harassing Ruth (who was gleaning wheat in his field).

See Ruth 2: “8 Then Bo′az said to Ruth, “Now, listen, my daughter, do not go to glean in another field or leave this one, but keep close to my maidens. 9 Let your eyes be upon the field which they are reaping, and go after them. Have I not charged the young men not to molest you?”
 
AMEN! Thank you Brian!
Men who say they don’t know how to treat women are just making excuses and blaming victims.

There are few ambiguous situations, Ask any women, She can tell anyone when she is groped, creeped out, or disrespected.
 
Tulitas said:
Men who say they don’t know how to treat women are just making excuses and blaming victims.
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I think there may be two different things going on:

–The creepy miffed about having to learn different ways of relating to random women than putting their hands all over them and perhaps wondering when MeToo is going to catch up with them.

or (much more innocently)

–The inexperienced dealing with cognitive dissonance between MeToo and what they’ve always heard works with women, namely the James Bond/Pick Up Artist approach, which involves a lot of grabbing women until they find one that doesn’t run away.

Of course, practicing Catholic men should not be looking to James Bond or PUAs for advice on how to meet and marry a nice Catholic woman, but you’d be surprised how many single Catholic men on CAF think they can use those techniques (which are designed to get bar and club-goers into bed) for more wholesome purposes.
 
Cecilia_Dympna said:
This has nothing to do with abortion.
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It does a little bit, in that people like Harvey Weinstein make abortion much more attractive to women who don’t know when some strange man is going to pounce on them, and expect it to happen with some regularity.

(I remember reading some of the stories about HW and thinking, so THAT’S why Hollywood actresses have such a history of being militant about legal abortion.)
 
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DarkLight said:
Secular society still has a strong strain that sex with women is how you prove your masculinity, and a “real man” has to prove himself by overcoming the objections of women.
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Right.
DarkLight said:
It’s hard to get men to respect women when they’re simultaneously getting the message that if they do, they’re not real men. It also turns things into a false battle, where either the man has to be in control or the woman is.
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Right.

Whereas if you’re actually good for each other, you’ll pretty quickly want more or less the same things.
DarkLight said:
Maybe a little more playful. I’d be a little disturbed if my boyfriend carried on acting just like I was his sister right up until the wedding night.
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Yeah.
 
Cecilia_Dympna said:
This is the first post where you started talking about abortion .
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My only reasoning for the comment is: why would women argue against sexual harassment but at the same time allow for something as abortive instruments being used in their womb to kill an innocent human being? Which is a valid question. Related/reflective to the issue raised in the topic.
 
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BoyGenius said:
My only reasoning for the comment is: why would women argue against sexual harassment but at the same time allow for something as abortive instruments being used in their womb to kill an innocent human being? Which is a valid question. Related/reflective to the issue raised in the topic.
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As I was pointing out earlier, the public’s lack of enthusiasm for abortion (the number of abortions is down by half since 1980) seems to be tracking with the public’s revulsion about sexual harassment/rape. We currently have the lowest abortion rate since abortion was legalized, while the 1970s were both rape-y and had a high abortion rate.

I think your underlying assumptions are flawed.

Edited to add: I’m not kidding about the 1970s. There are a number of 1970s movies where rape gets thrown in completely gratuitously in a way that would not happen in any other decade, and as Adam Carolla has demonstrated pretty exhaustively, there was a lot of glorification of statutory rape in 1970s pop songs.

Revised: That should probably be “rock” not pop.
 
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BoyGenius said:
My only reasoning for the comment is: why would women argue against sexual harassment but at the same time allow for something as abortive instruments being used in their womb to kill an innocent human being? Which is a valid question. Related/reflective to the issue raised in the topic.
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Why would men like both hot coffee and cold soda?
 
Typical male response. Rather than recognizing a woman’s legitimate complaint, tell us that our concerns don’t matter and change the subject to what you want to talk about.
 
BoyGenius said:
My only reasoning is why would women argue against sexual harassment but at the same time allow for something as abortive instruments being used in their womb to kill an innocent human being?
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Remember this is some women, not all women. It’s certainly not my position. My take on it is in both situations “My body, My choice.” is the mantra. They allow the “abortive instruments” because they are a means to the end of not having to tolerate pregnancy, labor, delivery and possibly18 yrs of raising the child.

In the case of sexual harassment, she should be free of any compromising situations in which her ability to freely consent to sexual touch or even to non-sexual touch, is not hindered and is respected. In the case of abortion, she should be able to freely consent to the procedure, because it’s her choice again about what happens to her body and if the instruments are what are needed to rid her body of the pregnancy that she does not want, then that choice should not be hindered.

Also, if a pregnancy results from forced sex, she also wants the ability to not have to be further traumatized by carrying her rapist’s baby and giving birth.

It’s not about not being touched, whether by a person or “abortive instruments.” It about her having free consent to either type of touch. The baby is also seen as not having “rights” over her body. They think the woman’s right to not have to endure a pregnancy trumps the baby’s right to life because the baby needs use of her body in order to survive. She gets to say whether the baby can “use” her body that way.
 
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BoyGenius said:
Legalizing is not a necessary cause that it was reduced.
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I’m talking about the abortion rate during the years of legal abortion. It went up starting with legalization, peaking around 1980, but has now fallen to a level last seen around 1973.


I looked it up again, and the current abortion rate is the lowest ever recorded in the US since Roe v. Wade. It is even lower than it was in 1973.
 
Xantippe said:
As I was pointing out earlier, the public’s lack of enthusiasm for abortion (the number of abortions is down by half since 1980) seems to be tracking with the public’s revulsion about sexual harassment/rape. We currently have the lowest abortion rate since abortion was legalized, while the 1970s were both rape-y and had a high abortion rate.
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Now, to relay/reply to this comment on another observation. Not sure if people look at sexual harassment as a numbers issue either. For, abortion is wrong, because it is murder. And, sexual harassment is wrong, because if violates the dignity and welfare of a woman. I don’t think it’s about statistics. I believe calling sexual harassment wrong, and calling it out when it happens, may never stop it. But it does show an urgent reason to stop it as much as possible. And I’d say that would therefore lead to the same conclusion on abortion.

Nobody legalizes sexual harassment. And no one would even legalize abortion.

If so, then it’s arbitrary act of justice and authority. Another word for that is tyranny.
 
Xantippe said:
I’m talking about the abortion rate during the years of legal abortion. It went up starting with legalization, peaking around 1980, but has now fallen to a level last seen around 1973.

Abortion Rate In U.S. Falls To Lowest Level Since Roe v. Wade : The Two-Way : NPR

I looked it up again, and the current abortion rate is the lowest ever recorded in the US since Roe v. Wade. It is even lower than it was in 1973.
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The Graph from the Institute places that in a simplistic view. You cannot surmise that legalizing abortion caused the steady drop in abortions. It avoids economic patterns, and other issues affront determining whether someone chose an abortion or not.

One of the most determining factors has been adoption, for reduction in abortion. In fact, the counter to abortion has done a great deal in giving women more opportunities to be sought out rather than aborting the child’s life in her womb. You also have other laws which limited abortion upon certain trimesters. So, again to make the framework of “legalizing abortion” as a necessary cause leading to the effect (i.e. reducing abortions) is a flawed use of data.

It’s a good thing economic theorists do not subscribe to that model in utilizing data. Then our economy would be messed up.Because, other factors apply.
 
BoyGenius said:
The Graph from the Institute places that in a simplistic view.
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The graph is about the abortion rate during the years of legal abortion. It doesn’t even address the abortion rate before legalization.
 
That doesn’t always work. For example, my brothers will compliment me if I look particularly nice that day or have a new outfit. “You look nice!” Or “Is that a new dress? It’s pretty.” is completely appropriate. Many women I work with would NOT find a comment like this from a man as appropriate, and they would consider it as creepy, and probably harassment. I even had a coworker complain about someone to me until I pointed out that he also compliments men on nice shoes, sweaters, etc… I think he just appreciates nice clothes!

So there is the obvious way of treating women with respect, but I can understand how a lot of men may be nervous about the seemingly appropriate/mundane things they may say or do, and how a woman might interpret it.
 
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