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BoyGenius
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I agree with that. And you are right.
Has the #Metoo movement made men more unsure how to relate with women?
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BoyGenius
Guest
That made it confusing. When you say “since abortion was legalized”, it sounded like a necessary cause. But beforehand, you refer to the “public’s revulsion about sexual harassment/rape.” That in fact, just from reading it, makes it sound like two necessary causes. And the one condition as a necessary cause: “abortion was legalized” it was what i had focused on/critiqued. Was I mistaken how the statement was presented?
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on_the_hill
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I’m not going to get drawn in to the derailment. But to just make one comment: You’re right. Women who are pro-choice should not be protected from harassment or afforded dignity.
Even though the Church calls us to treat everyone, saint and sinner alike, with dignity and compassion.
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Xantippe
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The “since” meant “from the time” not “because.”
I’ll add that from the PR point of view, the argument you’re making is going to come across as, “I care about the baby in your tummy, but I don’t care about you,” if protecting women from harassment and rape is contingent on no woman anywhere ever having an abortion.
Bear in mind, we’re at a 44+ year low for abortion. Guttmacher says, “At 2014 abortion rates, one in 20 women (5%) will have an abortion by age 20, about one in five (19%) by age 30 and about one in four (24%) by age 45.5.”
So, 3/4 of women in the current young adult cohort will probably never have an abortion. Under the circumstances, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to make concern for sexual harassment and rape contingent on not having an abortion, especially since it’s not obvious who has and who hasn’t had an abortion.
There’s been so much good work done in the US with regard to denormalizing abortion, and I really have to caution some male posters (including yourself) to avoid making it sound like you don’t care about women’s well-being or that you believe large numbers of women are having abortions. If you do so, you’re normalizing abortion.
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BoyGenius
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And the branding wherefore women are objectified in Television themes like “Two and a Half Men”, and “How I Met Your Mother” are not somehow linked to this crazed sexual drive that men seem to connect the dots to the hookup lifestyle that makes women look like a sport?
Which, nevertheless, proceeds to men touching women in a way that violates her dignity, and respect to her? Whether she concedes to the engagement or not?
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on_the_hill
Guest
Hmm…I shoulda watched more television and had more fun before I got married.
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BoyGenius
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So, we mutually misunderstood each other’s point of view. Did not mean to misunderstand. The word “since” - as I understood it. Meant since this, then that. Not time, but as a causal.
And to point out that my defense of the unborn, as I stated, falls on the Golden Rule. Wherefore, if I advocate for the respect and dignity owed to the unborn child. I am therefore signifying quite well as appealing to the woman nevertheless as she would want/desire and is owed to be treated (with respect to her dignity as a human person, not as an object.) Thus, as one of the Two Greatest Commandments states: Love thy neighbor as you love thy self.
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Xantippe
Guest
TV fun is different from the real life version.
I really like the geek and autism humor in Big Bang Theory, but was annoyed by the sex comedy of the early seasons. One of the things that annoys me is the fact that in real life, at least one member of the cast should have herpes and either a baby out of wedlock or a couple of abortions (based on their lifestyle and characterization), but since it’s TV comedy, nobody gets an STI, has an abortion or has to drop out of the friend group fun because they had a baby as a single person.
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Werbenjagermanjensen
Guest
Maybe should make me more cautious but I trust my female colleagues so I’m good. I feel I’m still safe to go on business trips and go out for dinner and drinks after work. I avoid drinking myself into a stupor and foul language in their presence but that’s just because I’m such a flippin gentleman and not really a reaction to metoo.
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Werbenjagermanjensen
Guest
Yea, sex on TV is always glamorous and consequence-free. STDs are non-existent and there is no jealousy, emotional problems, or unplanned pregnancies. It wouldn’t make for compelling TV for a character to be on constant antibiotics and have a heap of baby mama drama.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Please, gentle people,
Don’t feed the troll.
Don’t feed the troll.
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Xantippe
Guest
The logic is sound, but it’s not going to persuade the target audience.
Also, bear in mind that the majority of women who have abortions are already mothers of at least one other child.
Why are women with children having more abortions?
A few months ago, I was late. You know what I mean: My usual period day came and went without a spot, and suddenly every wave of exhaustion, every...
(That’s a 2011 piece.)
“Women who are already mothers have more abortions than anyone else, and by an increasingly wide margin. When Guttmacher Institute researchers last ran the numbers in 2008 they found that 61 percent of women who terminate a pregnancy in this country already have at least one child.”
“That was before the recession, though—before the poverty rate rose to swallow 40.7 percent of women who head families, many of whom know they can’t afford another child.* So I asked the National Abortion Federation, a professional association of abortion providers, to run the numbers on the women visiting their clinics and calling their hotlines in the past few years. The resulting figures shocked NAF President Vicki Saporta, who called to tell me that every year since 2008, a whopping 72 percent of NAF clients looking to terminate a pregnancy were already mothers, up at least 10 percent from the years before the economy crashed.”
“But why do mothers have so many abortions in the first place? Jones co-authored a qualitative study titled “I Would Want To Give My Child, Like, Everything in the World: How Issues of Motherhood Influence Women Who Have Abortions,” which found that most mothers who abort say they are doing so to protect the kids they already have. As Jones points out, that rationale is tough to demonize politically, especially when you consider that most women making this choice are contending with some combination of low income, unemployment, and a lack of health insurance, or are struggling to raise kids on their own.”
From their point of view, these women are having abortions to protect the child or children they already have.
In the context of existing maternal duties, even adoption is not an easy call–being pregnant makes it very difficult to care properly for existing children, especially if poor, not to mention it makes it difficult to work, especially at the more physically demanding work which is more typical of low income mothers.
This is getting long, but I’ve also heard it said that many women who have abortions believe it’s wrong, but that they “have to.” In that context, demonstrating that it’s wrong isn’t going to move the needle. A lot of women who have abortions believe it’s wrong, but also believe that they don’t have other workable choices.
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BoyGenius
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To begin, my first comments were that first, certain shows brand objectifying women (Again, as I stressed before. Sheen led a character with promiscuous living habits. And then offscreen, did likewise, and ended with AIDS.) Wherefore, second, I had stated in Hollywood (which I understand the origin of the MeToo hashtag appears to be rooted from) [Hollywood] has branded the image of making women objects. I had even stated somewhere on this thread that men do talk about having hookups with women as some sort of achievement. Which seems nothing to do with love, respect, and dignity owed to a woman. Third, and perhaps lastly, I then questioned the culture in general, wherefore among the population are women who support abortion, but nonetheless are outspoken critics to sexual harassment. I guess not lastly, but now finally, drew upon contradiction that women (those who support abortion) want the respect owed to them, but nonetheless denies that to be owed to an unborn human being. I then reasoned from there, that contradicts the respect and dignity that is owed to them. And therefore undermines the culture (if I had not said it exactly, still nevertheless is implied) of Justice.
It was a question, in general, about the culture, wherefore there in the population are those who support abortion (those being women.) And that is a valid question of character and judgement, since it serves a contradiction to the dignity and respect owed to her.
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Xantippe
Guest
Well, it would be compelling, but it would be a different kind of TV.
The characters definitely wouldn’t be browsing at the comic store, going to Comic-Con and eating Thai takeout every night with friends if they had a baby out of wedlock.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
I have been unsure ever since a woman told me she was offended because a co- worker told her she “looked nice”.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Would the same co-worker go around telling men they look nice?
“Hey, Bob, looking good, baby!”
If you wouldn’t say it to a male co-worker, what makes you think it’s OK to say it to a female co-worker?
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Shakuhachi
Guest
I would and do sometimes when new clothes or haircuts are sported. Does that make me a sexist boor?
Without the “Baby”
Without the “Baby”
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SuscipeMeDomine
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If you are, at least you’re an equal opportunity sexist boor.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
Hah! I guess so. I guess I could compliment The haircut or The new clothes.
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Werbenjagermanjensen
Guest
Langauge gets cleaned up quite a bit around women. I find most women don’t realize that. So the answer to your question is yes, it would get said to a male co-worker. That and much, much worse. In fairness to your point though, what would be said to the man is more in the spirit of camaraderie and humor and the woman may feel like she’s getting hit on.
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